What really happened in the 00-02 Laker championship seasons

[BEAST Griffin]

00-02 Lakers w/o Kobe = 28-6 record

00-02 Lakers w/o Shaq = 13-12 record

/thread

[Quickening]

Laker fans are just horrible... they're really pretending Kobe was as good as Shaq in 2001..

[ShaqAttack3234]

Shaq & Kobe led the Lakers in points each in half the Playoffs (2 series each, 4 total) in the '01 & '02 Postseasons
And like I already said before that Kobe led the Lakers in 4th quarter PPG in the '02 Postseason ('01 as well, but there was a lot of blowouts) And that Kobe was leading scorer through the entire Western Conference Playoffs in '01 & '02
How was he not a 1B in '01 & '02?

He wasn't 1.A/1.B in either year because there was a player on his team that was better than him and the guy the offense went through first who was the primary focus of opposing defenses and the guy drawing most of the doubles.

Kobe was the MVP of the Spurs series each year, Shaq was better in the other 3.

1.A/1.B to me is when there isn't a guy who is known as the 1st option and when you can make a case for either player being better, and that simply wasn't the case those years, imo, I didn't think so at the time and I don't 10 years later. Shaq was winning the best player polls by a landslide until Duncan's second title in '03.

00-02 Lakers w/o Kobe = 28-6 record

00-02 Lakers w/o Shaq = 13-12 record

/thread

Actually, the Lakers were 25-7 w/o Kobe from '00-'02, but 25-6 in the games Shaq played. And 13-13 w/o Shaq, but 13-12 in the games Kobe played.

[BlackVVaves]

They did, the divide become much more deep until the point of no return (Shaq, and Kobe both essentially demanding that management trade the other player).

During the 03-04 seasons Kobe and Shaq's production and talent level also became nearly identical if not Kobe surpassing Shaq. In the 02-03 season Kobe averaged 30/7/6/2 a game while Shaq averaged 27/11/2.5 blocks. In 03-04 season Kobe averaged 24 ppg while Shaq averaged 22 ppg. That was a huge reason why the Lakers broke up, Shaq couldn't handle Kobe slowly becoming more dominant and the man of that team while Shaq was slowly deteriorating. Shaq's last championship in 2006 was essentially a shell of his early 2000 dominant self, averaging 17/9 in the finals while wade averaged 30 ppg.

If shaq would have stayed with the Lakers the 2006 finals would have been how his seasons there would have played out. Him slowly getting worse while Kobe would become more and more dominant. Shaq couldn't handle taking a backseat to Kobe so he decided he would rather win a championship with another dominant wing player (wade) rather than help Kobe win his first as the clear cut #1.

Though I think Kobe's unwillingness to allow Shaq to be the undisputed leader of the team was detrimental to the team's potential, untapped success (Shaq and Kobe should have and could have won in 2004, 2005, and or 2006 with proper roster management and Phil remaining HC), I think it was essential for Kobe and Shaq to split for their individual growth and careers -- particularly a young Kobe. They both wanted to prove to the other, the media, and themselves that they were All-Time greats, and could be champions without the other.

What I don't understand as a NBA fan. Shaq won his last title in Miami as second fiddle to Dwayne Wade, specifically in the Finals. Was Kobe's desire to be great, even greater than Shaq, so troubling to the Diesel's ego that he could allow Kobe to be the #1 option as he was in the 02-03 and 03-04
seasons? Was it the fact that Wade was quiet about his ability in comparison to Kobe's demeanor?

Even so, what Shaq and Wade experienced in the 04-05, 05-06, and 06-07 seasons was the "honeymoon" phase, much like Shaq and Kobe's first few years and titles together. One thing about Shaq back then that was constant -- he never left those teams/cities in good grace. There was always conflict involved, whether with Kobe in LA or Riley in Miami, that surrounded his departure. Which leads me to believe that Shaq himself was as much reason to blame for the dynasty 2000 Lakers fall as Kobe. Common denominator.

[LAClipsFan33]

Shaq was definitely 1st option. He commanded the double. The 1st time Kobe got the 1st option like double was in the Finals series against the Pistons.

Larry Brown had a simple strategy that other coaches hadn't bothered to implement because of fear of Shaq. He doubled Kobe and Kobe decided he would still shot jack over two defenders. We saw how that turned out...

[The Iron Fist]

What happened in the Kings/Lakers WCF left a black mark on the NBA. IMO, it was one of the worst days/controversies in the history of the NBA.

I agree. Seeing Sac get 40 freethrows in game three was simply disgusting.

[LAClipsFan33]

Shaq himself was as much reason to blame for the dynasty 2000 Lakers fall as Kobe. Common denominator.

Also his jealousy of Penny in Orlando. Shaq is a punkass...plain and simple

[The Iron Fist]

Shaq was definitely 1st option. He commanded the double. The 1st time Kobe got the 1st option like double was in the Finals series against the Pistons.

Larry Brown had a simple strategy that other coaches hadn't bothered to implement because of fear of Shaq. He doubled Kobe and Kobe decided he would still shot jack over two defenders. We saw how that turned out...

Yup. Got rid of Shaq and ended up with three straight finals and back to back fmvps. Shaqs presence corraled Kobes greatness. Once freed from the fatass, Kobe dominated the league.

[LAClipsFan33]

Yup. Got rid of Shaq and ended up with three straight finals and back to back fmvps. Shaqs presence corraled Kobes greatness. Once freed from the fatass, Kobe dominated the league.

Kobe is no different as a player with or without Shaq if you ask me.

The way he played this year in the playoffs pretty much confirms it. Same old player. The same things Shaq and Phil Jackson used to complain about with Kobe was on display this playoff season.

[Odinn]

Shaq was the number 1 option on all 3 teams and the best and most important player in the league during those years. I remember Phil stating quite a few times that Shaq was the 1st option. Kobe became one of the top 3, or at worst, top 5 players during the last 2 titles.

Kobe's level of play was arguably greater than any other second option during '01 and '02, though. But he'd tell you himself that he wasn't the 1st option on those teams, I've heard him say it several times. In '03, Kobe was the 1st option by default with Shaq out for the first 12, then they went back to the offense going through Shaq first like they were use to, but the team was still not playing that well, and Phil gave Kobe more freedom in late January sparking those scoring streaks and getting the Lakers going, though he apparently made Shaq the 1st option again late in the season. As Kobe claimed, Phil had come to him and said that Shaq wasn't in the condition to carry the offensive load like in the past, so he asked Kobe to do it, and Kobe claimed Shaq got upset and Phil made him the 1st option again. You can kind of see this with Kobe's big February and then Shaq's player of the month in March.

'03 was the transition year, but quite a bit of confusion as to who was the man, not unlike Lebron/Wade in '11. Phil stated Shaq was the 1st option in '04, but it seemed to work out more to a 1.A/1.B situation. In '03, Kobe was really entering his prime averaging 30/7/6 and Shaq had a bit of a down year compared to the 3peat, though he did put up 28/11/3, 2+ bpg on 57%.

By '06, Kobe definitely would've been the man. When Shaq went to Miami in '05, he was initially the first option, but he got injured late in the season and Wade really took that role from him with his breakout performance in the playoffs. His minutes dropped to 31 per game, though he was still averaging 20/9/2/2 and had some big games in the 1st 3 rounds and a dominant ECF. By then, it was pretty clear who was the 2nd option, though the team still couldn't succeed without Shaq. They were under .500 without him(10-13, and 10-11 when Wade played) despite having Alonzo Mourning to fill in who averaged 12/9 with 4 bpg.

But there's some pretty one-sided analysis here, though. It wasn't just Shaq not wanting to share the spotlight, he made mistakes taking to the media and also the delayed surgery. But 2001 was primarily Kobe's fault. He talked about not getting enough recognition compared to other stars like AI, T-Mac and Carter, wanting a scoring title and MVP like Shaq had, quotes like "the triangle is boring" and in response to Phil telling Kobe he wanted to Shaq to remain the first option "turn my game down? I gotta turn my game up". Clearly defying his coaches orders and there's no condoning that. both Phil and Jerry West said he figured it out when the Lakers played better without him going 11-3.

Another Kobe fap fap thread owned by ShaqAttack.

Just start using tissues Kobetards, like you used to before posting.

[The Iron Fist]

Kobe is no different as a player with or without Shaq if you ask me.

The way he played this year in the playoffs pretty much confirms it. Same old player. The same things Shaq and Phil Jackson used to complain about with Kobe was on display this playoff season.

Now post his averages for the playoffs.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Kobe ran Shaq and Phil outta town. The end.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Shaq was definitely 1st option. He commanded the double. The 1st time Kobe got the 1st option like double was in the Finals series against the Pistons.

Larry Brown had a simple strategy that other coaches hadn't bothered to implement because of fear of Shaq. He doubled Kobe and Kobe decided he would still shot jack over two defenders. We saw how that turned out...

Brown did play Shaq 1 on1 almost exclusively, but Kobe wasn't getting doubled much either, he was played by Prince 1 on 1 more often than not and almost always shooting doubles.

I agree that Kobe was Kobe regardless of who he played with though. His individual ability is not a question. He was close to as skilled and capable individually by the '03 season as he'd ever get. But he clearly became much more of a leader in recent years than when he was young and more introverted.

Also his jealousy of Penny in Orlando. Shaq is a punkass...plain and simple

The Shaq/Penny thing wasn't a big issue to me. Penny himself said he was devastated when Shaq signed with LA and when they played Phoenix with Penny on the team 4 years later in the WCF, Penny was speaking fondly about the years with Shaq on the Magic.

The guys Shaq really took shots at when he signed with LA were Brian Hill who he said the players didn't respect(and Penny supposedly got him fired a year later), and Nick Anderson, who I think he called out for choking.

The guy who Shaq had the big feud with was Kobe, other than that, it was him taking a shot here or there, such as at Ricky Davis/Chris Quinn, and he did claim to get Van Exel traded after '98. Not sure how true that is because I remember hearing some of it had to do with the Del Harris feud. Though I'm sure Van Exel talking about vacation plans in a timeout during the elimination game of the WCF, a series he shot 24% in didn't help.

[LAClipsFan33]

Now post his averages for the playoffs.

I don't need to post them to know that they are similar. I watched all of it live

[LAClipsFan33]

Brown did play Shaq 1 on1 almost exclusively, but Kobe wasn't getting doubled much either, he was played by Prince 1 on 1 more often than not and almost always shooting doubles.

They decided that if they brought a double it would be on Kobe and never Shaq. That's what I was saying. To my knowledge no one had ever used this strategy on those Lakers.