So what exactly separates Isiah Thomas from Dwyane Wade?

[jrong]

We have two Chicago ballers. Thomas had a thirteen year career; Wade just finished his ninth. Let's go the tale of the tape (warning: exhaustive and in-depth):

Career Averages

Thomas: 19.2 pts, 3.6 rebs, 1.0 o-rebs, 9.3 asts, 3.8 tovs, 1.9 stls, .3 blks, 45.2% FGs, 29% 3FGs, 75.9% FTs

Wade: 25.2 pts, 5.1 rebs, 1.3 o-rebs, 6.2 asts, 3.5 tovs, 1.8 stls, 1.0 blks, 48.6% FGs, 29.1% 3FGs, 77% FTs

Career Playoffs

Thomas (9 seasons, 111 games): 20.4 pts, 4.7 rebs, 1.2 o-rebs, 8.9 asts, 3.3 tovs, 2.1 stls, .3 blks, 44.1% FGs, 34.6% 3FGs, 76.9% FTs

Wade (8 seasons, 110 games): 25.2 pts, 5.6 rebs, 1.4 o-rebs, 5.3 asts, 3.7 tovs, 1.7 stls, 1.1 blks, 47.8% FGs, 32.2% 3FGs, 77.9% FTs

Career Advanced Stats

Thomas: PER 18.1; WS/48 .109; TS 51.6%; ORtg 106; DRtg: 107

Wade: PER 25.7; WS/48 .196; TS: 56.6%; ORtg 111; DRtg: 103

Playoffs Advanced Stats

Thomas: PER 19.8; WS/48 .143; TS 52%; ORtg 110; DRtg: 105

Wade: PER 24.1; WS/48 .182; TS 56.1%; ORtg 109; DRtg: 102

Achievements

Thomas: Finalist (3), Champion (2); FMVP (1); All NBA 1st (3), 2nd (2); Assist Leader (1); All-Star (12/13)

Wade: Finalist (3), Champion (2); FMVP (1); All NBA 1st (2); 2nd (3); 3rd (2), All Defense 2nd (3); Scoring Leader (1); All-Star (8/9)

Notes and Observations

* Wade, like all players, will see his averages decrease over time; however, he's already played only four fewer seasons than Thomas's total.

* Thomas's 3 pt%, like all players from that era, is likely inflated due to the "line-shortened years."

* I included offensive rebounds because, in my opinion, it's more of a "height-neutral" way to compare rebounders (for example, did you know Wade's 1.3 o-reb average bests LeBron's (1.2)?). And, as the totals show, Thomas is probably a better rebounder than his 3.6 career average suggests. But, the rebounding category overall still tilts to Wade.

* I used WS/48 as one my advanced metrics due to those who decry PER. Plain-old WS, as I understand it is based on an 82 game season, which obviously not all players play. WS/48 at least tries to normalize the stat, based on per 48 minutes.

* I don't like voting-based awards as a criteria due to the inherent subjectivity of the process, but for what they're worth, there they are above, for both players.

* I also don't like career averages that much as a comparator because players' roles and minutes vary at different points in their career (is it really fair to penalize Kobe's scoring average because he was Eddie Jones's 8 ppg backup as a rookie?). But, seeing as Wade is approaching Thomas's total years and has had more injury-affected years, it's probably a sufficient gauge.

* Both Thomas and Wade were their team's best player in two out of three Finals, ending in one victory and one defeat each.

* Thomas was more or less perceived as his team's #1 through his whole career, though he didn't always lead in scoring.

* Wade's trajectory is more complicated. In 03, I'd call him a 1abcd (ensemble cast), though he took over in the playoffs. In 04, he was 1ab during the season (Wade 24/5/7; Shaq 23/11) and #1 in the playoffs (Wade 27/6/7; Shaq 19/8). In 06, he was inarguably #1 (season: Wade 27/6/7, Shaq 20/9; playoffs: Wade 28/6/6, Shaq 18/10) and remained #1 through 2010. In 2011, he became 1b in the season (James 27/8/7, Wade 26/6/5) and the overall 1a during the playoffs (Wade 25/7/4; James 24/8/6). In 2012, he became a clear #2.

* Thomas led better teams on average, but then again I'm sure 09 and 10 Wade would've loved to play with the likes of Joe Dumars, Dennis Rodman, Adrian Dantley, Mark Aguirre, Vinnie Johnson, James Edwards, John Salley, Rick Mahorn, and Bill Laimbeer.

* Sadly obligatory-- re: common 2006 objections-- 1) Shaq Finals +/-: -36, worst on team (thus notion that Shaq doubled freed Wade to score at will is total fallacy; 2) FTs-- In DAL/SAS series, Dirk had games of 25 and 24 FTs each, and Duncan had a 23 FT game. That's just how fouls were called in 2006. Let the dog die.

* Overall comparison: (via the numbers above) scoring, rebounding, defense and efficiency clearly go to Wade. Passing obviously goes to Thomas, and I'm inclined to say he was a better jumpshooter, though evidently not from 3. Handles can't be measured, but while Wade is elite, Thomas and CP3 are in contention for the best dribbler ever title. Wade seems to have more total offensive impact in the season, while Thomas just edges him in that category in the playoffs.

Conclusion

I'm not going to definitively say that Wade is better than Zeke was, though the evidence seems to lean that way. But, if you're gonna make the claim that Isiah was clearly better, based on anything other than just the fact that you think so, then, as the breakdown above shows, you've got some work in front of you....

And, to put this in some perspective, many people believe Isiah was a top 20 player. Yet, some are loathe to acknowledge Wade as top 30 or even top 40. What I've demonstrated is that, regardless of how much those ones of you don't like him, you are in need of a serious reality check as to where Dwyane Wade stands in history.

[Legends66NBA7]

I have Dwyane Wade over Isiah Thomas. Zeke definitely gets underrated IMO, but I think Wade's just the better player.

Wade's a Top 6 guard (includes PG's and SG's) of all-time, Imo.

jrong, different eras here, but what about comparison with Dwyane Wade vs Jerry West and Oscar Robertson ?

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

well, one is a true PG and the other is a SG.
that's separates them quite a bit.
Thus, comparing their stats doesn't help, as they had different roles.

[jrong]

I have Dwyane Wade over Isiah Thomas. Zeke definitely gets underrated IMO, but I think Wade's just the better player.

Wade's a Top 6 guard (includes PG's and SG's) of all-time, Imo.

jrong, difference eras here, but what about compariosn with Dwyane Wade vs Jerry West and Oscar Robertson ?

I can't in good conscience put Wade above either of them yet. Based on the pace-factor in the 60s, I would say Wade is more dominant within the frame of an individual game (when playing as lead option) and thus technically meets the definition of being "better" than West. And, as for the Big O, I've heard some questions raised as to how much impact his statistical accumulation had on actual winning.

But, at this point, Wade hasn't done enough that I'm comfortable ranking him above either of them all-time.

well, one is a true PG and the other is a SG.
that's separates them quite a bit.
Thus, comparing their stats doesn't help, as they had different roles.

That's why my comparison is so exhaustive and considers many, many facets.

[tastystaci]

What separates isiah from wade?

Common sense

[Kobe 4 The Win]

well, one is a true PG and the other is a SG.
that's seperates them quite a bit.
Thus, comparing their stats doesn't help, as they had different roles.

This is something that continually gets ignored in ISH. It's very important to their individual stats as well as the team's success. It's also really hard to compare guys that play different positions. That's why I have a hard time concluding that Jordan is the absolute GOAT.

[jrong]

What separates isiah from wade?

Common sense

And praytell, how does your "common sense" supersede my rational analysis, backed up by hard data?

Oh that's right, I addressed people like you in my second to last paragraph, I said that unless your only rationale for thinking Thomas clearly better is "that you think so," then you have some work to do to refute the evidence I present.

And to that you respond, in effect, "he's better because I think so," or "because my 'common sense' tells me to think so."

So what you're admitting is you're too stubborn, lazy, biased, anti-intellectual, or all of the above to offer anything more substantive in response.

Or, in other words, your thoughts are worthless.

[spacebump]

Isiah Thomas>D Wade

intangibles matter

[Bladers]

Stop it Jrong. Just stop it.

Wade got carried to the title.

Really he was carried. We got a guy averaging 6 points on 30% shooting in the first half of the playoffs.

That's ridiculous. Lebron needs his back professionally examined.

[jrong]

Isiah Thomas>D Wade

intangibles matter

And the intangibles in question would be?

Love how nobody has any actual responses to the information I cite or is citing any counter-evidence. I called it in my original post. It's just, "because I think so...."

[StateOfMind12]

Nothing, anyone who says Isiah is better than Wade or ranked above Wade in the historic list knows nothing about basketball. Isiah is one of the most overrated players in NBA history.

Wade is top 25-27 for me while Isiah is probably top 30-35.

[DonDadda59]

You can make a valid case for either guy, but you have to remember each guy played a different role for his respective team. Wade is a SG, Thomas was a PG so obviously the former will have better scoring #s and the latter more assists.

[longtime lurker]

Let's see the fact that Isiah led his team to back to back championships as the best player. Not to mention the competition he defeated along the way. He ran through Jordan's Bulls, Celtics and Lakers without the aid of then hall of fame player. Isiah gets criminally underrated due to the fact and I think that it has less to do with his playing career and everything to do with how he ran the Knicks.

[jrong]

Let's see the fact that Isiah led his team to back to back championships as the best player. Not to mention the competition he defeated along the way. He ran through Jordan's Bulls, Celtics and Lakers without the aid of then hall of fame player. Isiah gets criminally underrated due to the fact and I think that it has less to do with his playing career and everything to do with how he ran the Knicks.

So that's enough then to trump all the numbers above that lean in the other direction? The fact that he and Joe Dumars (who was FMVP for the first title), Dennis Rodman, Mark Aguirre, Vinnie Johnson, James Edwards, Spider Salley, Rick Mahorn, and Bill Laimbeer (while being coached by Chuck Daley) beat the aging Celtics; Jordan when Pippen and Grant were still young pups; and the Lakers without Scott or Worthy; and then the next year the Blazers? That's all it takes for you?

[Sarcastic]

Isiah never played with anyone remotely close to Shaq nor Lebron's level. If he had, I think he would have won many more titles.

If Wade doesn't play with those 2 guys, he likely has 0 rings and this is not even a discussion.