I've seen enough, Wilt was most dominant big ever

[NZStreetBaller]

You had me at "needed kobe and wade to win titles" one thing shaq has in common with lebron

[Psileas]

How are the books on 60's basketball, including Goliath by Wilt "stupidity?"

Wilt had injuries. So have a lot of great players. But Wilt defenders are the only fans that use injuries as an excuse over and over again, and then trash other players that were injured without mentioning this injuries.

It's funny how the STRONGEST, MOST ATHLETIC BIG MAN EVER has so many excuses. More than any player in NBA history. Yet because he has historic numbers in an era where there were more possessions and the league wasn't as athletic, (yes there were very athletic players during his era, just not as many as modern times.)

I will give Wilt this, he was a prototype, a way ahead of his time player in a league that only had up to 12 teams so the talent was less concentrated, teams had multiple all stars. He was an athletic marvel of his time, but isn't that a significant advantage over guys like Johnny Red Kerr and Willie Naulls, while quality centres in their day, wouldn't be able to hang at centre because of height issues and lack of basic athleticism? Not knocking those guys but for every Russell or Thurmond there are a few Lovellettes and Irmhoffs who were physical players due to lack of skills and athleticism.

Not saying Andre Drummond or Nerlens Noel would be 6x MVP in that era or averaging 40ppg but I think there ability to move quicker and jump would well not stop Wilt and Russell but is more of a deterrent than a ground bound 6 foot 9 guy.

I love the sixties guys, but the game is a different sport, dare I say a better sport now. Not saying Wilt would be a back up or averaging 12 and 8, but with less possessions and smarter, fitter, more athletic players he would average more modern numbers. Still impressive, but nowhere near as gaudy as in his prime.

Sorry about the disjointed writing, I know it's not very coherent but what can I say, I'm not as dominant a writer as Milton Gross was in the 60's.

Look all over this place and tell me with a straight face that these are the types of arguments that you find in anti-Wilt guys. They aren't, they use lame, simplistic "arguments" like the number of titles, or like "22 ppg". Given this and, most importantly, given that this crap has been answered and debunked at nauseam, why still go into detailed and friendly discussions with people with trollish agendas?

Wilt had injuries and, rightfully, couldn't perform as great through some of these. How is this an excuse? Bird has underperformed a lot (for an all-time GOAT) due to injuries and his fans surely play the same card. Kareem has missed a Finals game to an injury and nobody holds this against him. Isiah played badly in Game 7 of the '88 Finals due to an injury and some believe that the Pistons would have won the title if he hadn't been injured. Same with Russell in '58. So, is it unreasonable that a non injured Wilt could similarly have won a title in '68 or '70?
He wasn't an athletic marvel "for his day", but for any day. If you replace modern medicine, gyms, general lifestyle, etc, with the ones of Wilt's time, today's athletes are not better, faster, stronger, etc. If you bring Wilt today, he becomes even more of a monster than he was. He'd always have an athletic advantage and that's perfectly OK to me, it's not as if most modern legends don't enjoy similar advantages and nobody holds this against them.
And, no, athletes are definitely not "smarter". Better prepaired due to prior knowledge, yes, but their capacity for learning and adapting is not any different to the ones of Wilt's era. Nor is this better preparation something that ended in the 80's or 90's (the decades that many define as the beginning of the "modern era", whatever this means) and basketball hasn't evolved since.

[feyki]

haq

Hack a Haq

[Wade's Rings]

Possessions do not equal points. FGAs and FTAs do. And please, don't forget to adjust for the eFG%'s, as well.

Not to mention that fact that Chamberlain was being defended by entire teams.

How about Wilt's 64 Finals? Averaged 29 ppg on 24 FGAs per game...and shot .517 in a post-season that shot .420. And did so against arguably one of the GOAT defensive teams, and against arguably the GOAT defensive season by a center...

and then Hakeem's '95 Finals.

Averaged 33 ppg on 29 FGAs, and shot an eFG% of .488 in a post-season NBA that shot an eFG% of .508.

Move '64 Wilt into Hakeem's slot, give him 29 FGAs, and adjust Wilt's FG% from 517 in .420 to .508...and wallah... a .625 FG%, and 40 ppg.

Per 100 possessions account for FGAs and FTAs

[mr4speed]

Basketball is a TEAM game. The ONLY series in which you could blame Wilt at all, was the '69 Finals. And his COACH was the reason that that team lost.

I don't blame West for losing when he played well. But he was awful in game seven of the '70 Finals, and was awful in the '73 Finals. In fact, he was awful in the '72 Finals, as well, but fortunately for him, Chamberlain dominated that series.

I don't blame for MJ losing to Bird's Celtics. Or Lebron, as poorly as he played, losing in the '07 Finals. Or Lebron in '14 and '15.

Again, if a player plays brilliantly, as Chamberlain did in virtually every series, even after his horrific knee injury...except the '69 Finals...how can you blame him for "losing?"

Excellent point - Teams win championships - you have to look at a lot more than just counting rings.

[TommyGriffin]

It's funny how Lazeruss is obsessed with the context when regarding Wilt's losses and then will turn around and ignore the context regarding Wilt's statistics.

[LAZERUSS]

It's funny how Lazeruss is obsessed with the context when regarding Wilt's losses and then will turn around and ignore the context regarding Wilt's statistics.

Like what?

Like winning scoring titles by 20 ppg?
Like winning rpg titles by 5 rpg?
Like averaging 3+ more apg in a season, than any other center ever averaged in NBA history?

Like averaging 22.5 rpg in his 17 post-season games, in his very last NBA season...and in a league that averaged 50.6 rpg per team (last year the NBA post-season average was 45.6 rpg per team BTW.)

Like having 32 60+ point games in his 14 seasons, and in that same span, there were a combined total of FIVE more?

I could go down the list, but Chamberlain was LIGHT YEARS better than his peers. Not only that, but a PEAK Kareem never approached any of Wilt's records, and he played FOUR years IN the Wilt-era. The same KAJ, who had age 39 was routinely hanging 40+ point games on Hakeem and Ewing.

Look, no rational Wilt fan would ever claim that he would be a 50 ppg - 25 rpg player in today's NBA. BUT, how about this...

Cousins just averaged 26.9 ppg in 34.6 mpg, and on a .477 eFG%.
Drummond just had a season of 14.8 rpg in 32.9 mpg.
Whiteside averaged 3.7 bpg in 29.1 mpg.
D Jordan had his second consecutive season of a .700 eFG%.

Now, give a peak Chamberlain 40 mpg, and using those averages (which would be inferior to what he would average today BTW)...

31.1 ppg
18.0 rpg
5.1 bpg

Regarding Wilt's FG%...

he had a season of 24.1 ppg on a .683 FG%, in a league that shot an eFG% of .441.

He also had another season of 13.2 ppg on a .727 FG%, in a league that shot .456.

Adjusting his FG% to 2016 levels, and his '67 FG% in a league that shot .441, to 2016, in a league that shot .502... .777.

Adjust his '73 FG% to 2016 levels... an even .800.


Now, we KNOW that Wilt averaged 46 mpg in his CAREER (and 47 mpg in his 160 post-season games)... 40 mpg is probably LOW for him.

But in any case...a prime Chamberlain would easily translate to 31-18-5-5 .600 in today's NBA. All with the best defense in the league.

[LAZERUSS]

How are the books on 60's basketball, including Goliath by Wilt "stupidity?"

Wilt had injuries. So have a lot of great players. But Wilt defenders are the only fans that use injuries as an excuse over and over again, and then trash other players that were injured without mentioning this injuries.

It's funny how the STRONGEST, MOST ATHLETIC BIG MAN EVER has so many excuses. More than any player in NBA history. Yet because he has historic numbers in an era where there were more possessions and the league wasn't as athletic, (yes there were very athletic players during his era, just not as many as modern times.)

Psileas already covered most everything in your post, but I would like to add a little to it.

Wilt gets ZERO EXCUSES for his injuries (to himself, his teammates, or both.) Clippersclown makes a post every week about how Wilt "choked" in the '68 EDF's. And every time he does, I post the articles which had that Sixer squad missing key players for the entire series, and other key players playing injured...including Chamberlain, who played every minute of that seven game series with an assortment of injuries, and NOTICEABLY LIMPING throughout. In fact, he was playing with nearly the same injury that forced Reed to miss one half of one game, three fourths of another, and then an entire game... in the last three games of the '70 Finals.

And the difference between Wilt and these other injured stars? Wilt still played BRILLIANTLY. In the '68 EDF's, he averaged 22-25-7. Not only that, but in what could have been a clinching game five, he just shelled Russell. Thru those first five games... 24-23-7 and on a .539 FG%. When Bird, Reed, or West were injured...HUGE dropoffs. Hell, KAJ missed game a clinching Finals game with a sprained ankle. Wilt was PLAYING with FAR worse injuries, as well as returning from major knee surgery WAY ahead of schedule (and at way less than 100% BTW.)

In fact, in the '70 Finals, he basically battled a much healthier MVP Reed to a draw in the first four games of that series. And he was pounding him in game five when Reed went down. The "bashers" then blame WILT for that series loss...despite Wilt averaging 29.3 ppg, 24.0 rpg, and on a .709 FG% in the last three games of that series.

Meanwhile, how often have you read anyone blaming WEST for that game seven loss? Sure, he played hurt...but again, the difference... Wilt generally played exceptionally well, even injured...while West puked all over the floor, and at both ends.

I have read those here that have said, "well, Wilt had a 45-27 game six, how come he "only" had a 21-24 game seven?"

That's what I call ... The Wilt Double Standard. Here was a Wilt playing at far less than 100%...BUT, he was EXPECTED to hang a 45-27 game EVERY TIME he stepped on the floor.

How come a HEALTHY MJ followed up his 63 point playoff game with a 19 point game in a sweeping blowout loss? Why didn't HE score 63 every game he played?

How come a prime KAJ could put up a 36 point game six in the '74 Finals, and then get badly outplayed by a foul-plagued Cowens in a blowout game seven loss at home?

How come Shaq had a paltry 20 point clinching blowout loss in game fibe of the '04 Finals...and after a 36 point game four?

How about a peak Kobe in a game seven blowout loss against Phoenix in the first round in '06 with 24 points...and following a 50 point game six?

YET, with Wilt... "How come he didn't put up a 45-27 every game in his post-season career?"

[LAZERUSS]

BTW, a prime scoring Wilt averaged 32.8 ppg in his 52 playoff games...30 of which came against Russell and his Dynasty.

A peak Chamberlain played in 67 playoff games, and averaged 30.4 ppg, 27.0 rpg, 4.5 apg, and shot .515 from the field (in post-seasons in which the league average was about .425 in that same span.) Oh, and 41 of those 67 games were against Russell (35), and Thurmond (6).

A prime Wilt played in 80 playoff games...and averaged 29.3 ppg, 26.6 rpg, 4.8 apg, and shot .518 (again, against league that shot .430.)

Furthermore, Wilt missed the playoffs in a season in which he averaged 44.8 ppg. Give him an easy 35 ppg in that post-season, and he would have been well into the 30+ ppg range in his prime.

He played a total of 63 games post-injury, and in which his role was changed.

And finally, in between the 80 prime games, and the 63 post-injury games...he had a playoff run of 17 games, in which his incompetent coach had no idea on how to use him...and the result was the worst post-season of his career.

Overall, Wilt had post-season runs of 28.0 ppg, 29.3 ppg, 33.2 ppg, 34.7 ppg, 35.0 ppg, and 37.0 ppg. Included were series of 37.0 ppg, 37.0 ppg, 38.6 ppg, and 38.7 ppg. And in that span, he had 12 games, in 52, of 40+ points, including four of 50, 50, 53, and 56 points.

Then there was his '67 post-season title run, in which he averaged 21.7 ppg, 29.1 rpg, 9.0 apg, and shot .579 from the field. Included were back-to-back series in which he averaged a triple-double... 28.0 ppg, 26.5 rpg, 11.0 apg, and on a .617 FG%...followed by a series (against Russell) of 21.6 ppg, 32.0 rpg, 10.0 apg, and on a .556 FG%. BTW, in his first two playoff games that post-season, he hung games of 41 and 37 points, and on a combined 35-54 shooting (.648.) Clearly, he could have scored much more had he needed to.


Again...a peak Wilt averaged a 30-27-5- and likely 7+ bpg...on FG%'s that were nearly a full ten percentage points higher than the post-season league average. All in a span of 67 games.

Think about that...how many other greats have put up even one series of 30-27-5-7 and shooting way over the league average? Hell, you would be hard-pressed to find a GOAT who had ONE GAME of 30-27-5-7.

And none of that includes his crushing domination on the glass, or defensive brilliance, either. For instance, he played in 29 post-season series, and was never outrebounded by an opposing center in any of them. Furthermore, in the one 4 game series in which he was outrebounded (by PF Jerry Lucas), it was by one rpg. However, when the two battled each other as centers, Wilt outrebounded Lucas by a 23.2 to 9.8 rpg margin.

Wilt also was holding his HOF peers to post-season series of .343, .358, .373, .386, .392, .397, and .399. And an old Wilt held a peak KAJ to two consecutive playoff series of .481 and .457 ( and .414 in the last four games of that series.)

In his six Finals, Chamberlain outshot his opposing centers by a collective .559 to .439 margin. All while outscoring them overall, and crushing them on the glass.

That should put Wilt's "30-22-18" in a much better CONTEXT.

[LAZERUSS]

Look all over this place and tell me with a straight face that these are the types of arguments that you find in anti-Wilt guys. They aren't, they use lame, simplistic "arguments" like the number of titles, or like "22 ppg". Given this and, most importantly, given that this crap has been answered and debunked at nauseam, why still go into detailed and friendly discussions with people with trollish agendas?

Wilt had injuries and, rightfully, couldn't perform as great through some of these. How is this an excuse? Bird has underperformed a lot (for an all-time GOAT) due to injuries and his fans surely play the same card. Kareem has missed a Finals game to an injury and nobody holds this against him. Isiah played badly in Game 7 of the '88 Finals due to an injury and some believe that the Pistons would have won the title if he hadn't been injured. Same with Russell in '58. So, is it unreasonable that a non injured Wilt could similarly have won a title in '68 or '70?
He wasn't an athletic marvel "for his day", but for any day. If you replace modern medicine, gyms, general lifestyle, etc, with the ones of Wilt's time, today's athletes are not better, faster, stronger, etc. If you bring Wilt today, he becomes even more of a monster than he was. He'd always have an athletic advantage and that's perfectly OK to me, it's not as if most modern legends don't enjoy similar advantages and nobody holds this against them.
And, no, athletes are definitely not "smarter". Better prepaired due to prior knowledge, yes, but their capacity for learning and adapting is not any different to the ones of Wilt's era. Nor is this better preparation something that ended in the 80's or 90's (the decades that many define as the beginning of the "modern era", whatever this means) and basketball hasn't evolved since.

Again...

[deja vu]

Most dominant in the regular season.

Post-season tells a different story.

30 -> 22 -> 18

[sd3035]

2nd after Tim Duncan among gay players