Penetrators like Lebrick and Westbrick wouldn't excel in the 60's because...

[3ball]

You're taking arguably the greatest transition player of all time and placing him in the highest fastbreak era, common sense should take over from here

Most points were scored in the halfcourt, which is typical of any era.

Accordingly, Lebron's transition game would benefit less than his halfcourt game would SUFFER - the overcrowded paints in the halfcourt would hurt his bread-and-butter (penetration), and force him to use his weak areas (shooting).

the highest fastbreak era

You ethered yourself - using YOUR LOGIC, lebron would suffer in eras that had LESS transition, like the 90's.. Fortunately, we have data from 1997 onwards - the data shows that teams fastbreak more now than they did in the 90's:

2016 fast break stats: http://stats.nba.com/league/team/#!/...t=PTS_FB&dir=1
1997 fastbreak stats: http://stats.nba.com/league/team/#!/...nType=Playoffs


Take this L (as usual sdot)

common sense should take over from here

You're ignorance always takes over - you're unaware that fastbreaks in previous eras frequently ended in contested midrange jumpshots.. Defenders forced midrange pull-ups by running to the PAINT in transition, not the 3-point line like today's game..

A cursory glance at footage shows that transition in previous eras frequently resulted in contested midrange pull-ups, which is unheard of today.

You've forgotten that 3-pointers need to be more open than 2-pointers - so today's teams need to run more offense, resulting in slower pace and less PPG... Otoh, previous eras settled for one contested 2-pointer after another, without needing to run as much offense.
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[Mr. Jabbar]

Op likes to discuss basketball on basketball forums

this.

[90sgoat]

Lebrick would suck in the 60s, but Westbrick would do well with the higher pace and would kill in the fastbreak plus he has a good pull up mid range. Big O was not much different than Westbrook when you watch him play, though most likely a much higher IQ.

[3ball]

Westbrick would do well with the higher pace and kill the fastbreak

Most points are scored in the halfcourt, so Westbrook and Lebron's halfcourt game would suffer more than their transition games would benefit.

In the halfcourt, the overcrowded paints would hurt their bread-and-butter (penetration), and force them to use their weak areas (shooting).

They would benefit from the fastbreak

If Lebron and Westbrook would benefit from MORE fastbreak, then they would suffer with LESS fastbreak, like in the 90's.

We have data from 1997 onwards, and it shows that teams fastbreak more now than they did in the 90's:

2016 fastbreak stats: http://stats.nba.com/league/team/#!/...t=PTS_FB&dir=1
1997 fastbreak stats: http://stats.nba.com/league/team/#!/...nType=Playoffs


Accordingly, Lebron and Westbrook would suffer in the 90's due to less transition opportunities..

Westbrook has a good pull up mid range.

Westbrook's midrange efficiency is lower than 40% for his entire career and his 3-point efficiency has been very poor as well.. Lebron, Wade, Derozan and Butler also have poor midrange and 3-point efficiency for most of their careers.

[COLOR="Navy"]How are these guys top scorers despite poor shooting efficiency?[/COLOR]... It's simple - today's wide open spacing and hands-off defense allows easier access to the rim than ever before.

Today's spacing and hands-off defense would benefit Jordan the same way, except he had documented goat midrange efficiency, which would put him in Curry's category as a goat shooter, and give him a similarly massive advantage over non-shooters Lebrick, Westbrick and company.

[90sgoat]

Westbrook is a poor mid range shooter in the half court, but he does have a good efficiency - to my eye test - on the break with the pull up jumper, these stats probably don't exist? Westbrook has a very similar game to a lot of the high scoring wings in the 80s run and gun, rarely setting up a half court.

Lebron and Westbrook would both be very inefficient in the 90s. Lebron would struggle to score 20 ppg and Westbrook would definitely be a shooting guard and my guess is he would have been a defensive stopper, he could be reschooled to be sort of a Starks or Majerle, because he simply doesn't have the IQ necessary to be a point guard.

[FKAri]

And yet they're both succeeding in the most jumpshot centric era ever

Westbrook is a poor mid range shooter in the half court, but he does have a good efficiency - to my eye test - on the break with the pull up jumper, these stats probably don't exist? Westbrook has a very similar game to a lot of the high scoring wings in the 80s run and gun, rarely setting up a half court.

Lebron and Westbrook would both be very inefficient in the 90s. Lebron would struggle to score 20 ppg and Westbrook would definitely be a shooting guard and my guess is he would have been a defensive stopper, he could be reschooled to be sort of a Starks or Majerle, because he simply doesn't have the IQ necessary to be a point guard.

AI was a SG and had no problem even in his rookie year
But WB who has much more size and isn't as reliant on speed would have trouble?

[CuterThanRubio]

You've lost your touch, 3ball.

The Warriors have wrecked you!

This thread is a total failure!



Look at all of those LeBron stoppers!

[feyki]

Lebron would mix of between Oscar and Elgin in 60's .

[3ball]

80s run and gun [COLOR="Red"]rarely setting up a half court[/COLOR]

You think most points in the 80's were scored on the fastbreak?... Are you serious?

That's not only ridiculously false, it's dumb and ignorant.. Most points were scored in the halfcourt - just like today - which explains why pace was only 10% faster.

Since most points are scored in the halfcourt, Westbrook and Lebron's halfcourt game would suffer more than their transition games would benefit.. In the halfcourt, the overcrowded paints would hurt their bread-and-butter (penetration), and force them to use their weak areas (shooting).

Lebron and Westbrook would both be very inefficient in the 90s.

This is true, since the overcrowded paints would hurt their bread-and-butter (penetration), and force them to use their weak areas (shooting).

Also, nba.com has fastbreak stats from 1997 onwards, and they show that teams had much LESS fastbreak in the 90's:

2016 fastbreak stats: http://stats.nba.com/league/team/#!/...t=PTS_FB&dir=1
1997 fastbreak stats: http://stats.nba.com/league/team/#!/...nType=Playoffs

Westbrook has a good pull up mid range.

Westbrook's midrange efficiency is lower than 40% for his entire career and his 3-point efficiency has been very poor as well.. Lebron, Wade, Derozan and Butler also have poor midrange and 3-point efficiency for most of their careers.

[COLOR="Navy"]How are these guys top scorers despite poor shooting efficiency?[/COLOR]... It's simple - today's wide open spacing and hands-off defense allows easier access to the rim than ever before.

Today's spacing and hands-off defense would benefit Jordan the same way, except he had documented goat midrange efficiency, which would put him in Curry's category as a goat shooter, and give him a similarly massive advantage over non-shooters Lebrick, Westbrick and company.
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[Blue&Orange]

they would be called for traveling and palming on every play.

Lebron and his stiff arm would fouled out in 5 minutes

[3ball]

AI was a SG and had no problem even in his rookie year

AI is one of the most inefficient players ever and isn't regarded that highly among all-time greats.

I have no doubt that Westbrook could match AI's historic inefficiency in the 90's.

(Lebron, Westbrook, Derozan, Butler and Wade are top scorers despite having poor midrange AND 3-point efficiency)

And yet they're succeeding in the most jumpshot centric era ever

They succeed despite poor shooting efficiency because today's wide open spacing and hands-off defense allows players easier access to the rim than ever before.

[COLOR="Navy"]How else could they succeed without being able to shoot?[/COLOR]

[90sgoat]

And yet they're both succeeding in the most jumpshot centric era ever


AI was a SG and had no problem even in his rookie year
But WB who has much more size and isn't as reliant on speed would have trouble?

AI didn't play shooting guard until well into the 2000s, I don't care what position basketball reference has, he was a point guard for his first several seasons, just like Duncan is and has always been a center despite playing next to another center.

AI shot low 40s and sub 40s for most of his pre-rule change career. And that was shooting very few 3s.

Why bring up Iverson as some great player, he was a chucker pure and simple, he shot sub-40% and sub 30% on 3s in his playoff runs. You just can't turn it into some great achievement, he played in the worst conference of all time and was carried by DPOY and all time great Mutombo who put up 14 ppg 14 rpg and 3 bpg in the entire 2001 playoffs including 15 rebounds and 3 blocks in the Eastern Conference finals.

That run was Dikembe dominating an all time weak era for centers Jermaine O'Neal, Antonio Davis who were power forwards and Ervin Johnson who was an old stiff past his prime.

Dikembe was the MVP of those teams as proven as Iverson never did anything without him.

[3ball]

80s run and gun [COLOR="Red"]rarely setting up a half court[/COLOR]

You think most points in the 80's were scored on the fastbreak?... Are you serious?

That's not only ridiculously false, it's dumb and ignorant.. Most points were scored in the halfcourt - just like today - which explains why pace was only 10% faster... And in the playoffs, pace was THE SAME as today - look it up - pace has always slowed down in the playoffs (94.0 in 1988 compared to 94.4 in 2015).

Since most points are scored in the halfcourt, Westbrook and Lebron's halfcourt game would suffer more than their transition games would benefit.. In the halfcourt, the overcrowded paints would hurt their bread-and-butter (penetration), and force them to use their weak areas (shooting).

[MP.Trey]

So penetrators wouldn't succeed. Shooters wouldn't succeed. Damn, so who would? The 60's was such a weak era that no one could succeed.

[90sgoat]

You think most points in the 80's were scored on the fastbreak?... Are you serious?

That's not only ridiculously false, it's dumb and ignorant.. Most points were scored in the halfcourt - just like today - which explains why pace was only 10% faster... And in the playoffs, pace was THE SAME as today - look it up - pace has always slowed down in the playoffs (94.0 in 1988 compared to 96.0 in 2016).

Since most points are scored in the halfcourt, Westbrook and Lebron's halfcourt game would suffer more than their transition games would benefit.. In the halfcourt, the overcrowded paints would hurt their bread-and-butter (penetration), and force them to use their weak areas (shooting).

Why do you keep quoting again?

I was referring to Western Conference 80s teams such as Denver Nuggets or a team like RunDMC.