Penny Hardaway appreciation thread

[ShaqAttack3234]

See right there, you over rate him once again.

When did Vince seperate himself from Penny? See right there, you overrate the current player.(big surprise).

Penny only got to the first team because Jordan was sitting out. Also, in no way was he better than Payton that season, though simply got it over him because he was the NBA's love child who sat beside the lovable Shaq. They were one of the most popular teams.
Once again, Payton was better the following year.

Who cares if he made one all-nba ifrst team because Jordan was gone? Jordan was retired when Carter and McGrady were in their prime as well, shouldn't take away from their accomplishments.

And what was Payton better at in '95 and '96 other than defense? Those 2 were debatable overall.

Also, in no way is Penny a better defender than T-Mac. Tracy came into the league regarded as a premier defender and someone who can cause havoc for other long, athletic wings, and he did that in his first few seasons.

I was referring to T-Mac's overall prime. When T-Mac was in prime as an overall player, he was not a very good defender.

I'm 35; I saw Penny's whole career going back to his Memphis days. Great player, but VERY overrated. People talk about him like he was Kobe/LeBron level. He wasn't; more like Brandon Roy/Joe Johnson level. In other words, he was a great player but not elite.

Brandon Roy and Joe Johnson level? :

[robertshaw_1]

ranks 20

[AirJordan23]

I'd say Penny's peak was around 1996. That was definitely the year where his hype was at its peak. Orlando was the reigning ECF champs and made it to the ECF again. Penny was selected to the Dream Team. And in reality, I'd say he was a top 10 player in the league. Here are the premier stars of the league around that time.

Hakeem
MJ
DRob
Shaq
Malone
Hill
Pippen
Barkley
Kemp
Zo
Ewing
GP

Penny has no argument over Shaq, MJ, Hakeem, DRob or Malone. The rest are very arguable. I'd prefer Hill over Penny. GP and Pippen are above him for their superior defensive impact. The rest is very arguable, though.

[JohnnySic]

Brandon Roy and Joe Johnson level?

Yes.

Hakeem
MJ
DRob
Shaq
Malone
Hill
Pippen
Barkley
Kemp
Zo
Ewing
GP

Webber > Penny. People ALWAYS forget Chris Webber, or think of him as more of a 2000's player than a 90's player. I dont know why.

[AirJordan23]

Yes.

Webber > Penny. People ALWAYS forget Chris Webber, or think of him as more of a 2000's player than a 90's player. I dont know why.

Webber was out for most of the 1996 season with a dislocated shoulder and he missed a significant amount of time the previous year as well so I didn't bother putting him on the list. But, yeah he deserves some consideration. Regarding Penny and Webber, I always wondered if they weren't traded for each other. The CWebb/Shaq tandem would've definitely been interesting to watch. Webber at that time was pretty athletic and explosive and he wouldn't clog the lane for Shaq since Webber operated more in the high post. They were also surrounded with some great 3 point shooters to spread the floor with Nick Anderson and Scott. Shaw could also hit the 3. CWebb also won ROY in '94 outshining Penny on that unconventional Warrior team. But, yeah, when healthy you can definitely make a case for Webber over Penny.

I forgot to put Stockton's name up there as well but I wouldn't take him over Penny at that time.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Yes.

Right, I could really see those guys finishing 3rd in MVP voting and making back to back all-nba first teams.

What exactly did those guys do better than Penny? I guess Joe Johnson was a better 3 point shooter, but I'll take Penny's aggressive style any day and Penny was a considerably better passer/playmaker. I'll take Penny's defense as well. So basically Johnson was better 3 point shooter(while Penny was as good if not better at everything else) and Roy doesn't do anything better than Penny.

[v3DreJ80]

Hill>Penny.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Hill>Penny.

Hill was a better rebounder, that's about it. Penny was the better winner, passer, shooter and defender. I also thought his post game was better. As overall scorers they're about even.

[v3DreJ80]

Hill was a better rebounder, that's about it. Penny was the better winner, passer, shooter and defender. I also thought his post game was better. As overall scorers they're about even.

Yeah, Penny was a better winner that's why neither of them are ever won jack.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Yeah, Penny was a better winner that's why neither of them are ever won jack.

Penny was barely healthy and he still won more than Hill. he made it to the finals and the ECF, played on four 50 win teams, a 60 win team.

Hill played on just two 50 win teams(one of them was as the 5th or 6th option. And Hill has never made it out of the first round(it's funny how people love to point that out about T-Mac, but ignore it about Hill). Hill had six seasons where he was healthy before he became injury prone, Penny had 3.

[plowking]

Hill was a better rebounder, that's about it. Penny was the better winner, passer, shooter and defender. I also thought his post game was better. As overall scorers they're about even.

Oh please. Getting stuck next to one of the best centers ever doesn't make you a better winner, it makes you fortunate. And no, he wasn't a better defender either. Just because you have a 7 footer behind you and can push up on the ball, you are somehow the better defender. Penny wasn't that great a defender. Just because he chose to step it up against one player in MJ, doesn't make him as great as you say he is.

Also now he was a better passer than Hill?

[ShaqAttack3234]

Oh please. Getting stuck next to one of the best centers ever doesn't make you a better winner, it makes you fortunate. And no, he wasn't a better defender either. Just because you have a 7 footer behind you and can push up on the ball, you are somehow the better defender. Penny wasn't that great a defender. Just because he chose to step it up against one player in MJ, doesn't make him as great as you say he is.

Also now he was a better passer than Hill?

What's wrong with saying Penny was a better passer than Hill? Did you even watch Penny play? And yes, he was a better winner than Hill. In six healthy seasons in his prime, Hill made the playoffs 4 times and his numbers were comparable to his season numbers only once(he can't be blamed for 2000 though due to the injury). Penny stepped up his game in the playoffs, look at the 1997 playoffs or the 1995 finals. Look at what Penny did when Shaq was injured in 1996 and look his record with Orlando even after they replaced Shaq with Rony Seikaly who hadn't played well the last 2 seasons and that was with Nick Anderson already being done mentally after the 1995 finals(he dropped to a 40% FT shooter).

And Penny was typically a good perimeter defender, better than most of the star perimeter players of the past decade who very rarely even try to play 1 on 1 defense.

[v3DreJ80]

Penny was barely healthy and he still won more than Hill. he made it to the finals and the ECF, played on four 50 win teams, a 60 win team.

Hill played on just two 50 win teams(one of them was as the 5th or 6th option. And Hill has never made it out of the first round(it's funny how people love to point that out about T-Mac, but ignore it about Hill). Hill had six seasons where he was healthy before he became injury prone, Penny had 3.

I'm sure playing next to this 7'0 500 pound gorilla didn't help.

[plowking]

When did Vince seperate himself from Penny? See right there, you overrate the current player.(big surprise).

Yeah, huge surprise, I think Vince is the better player... because he is maybe? Peak season of 28/6/4/2/1 on 46/41/77 percentages is far better than anything Penny did. I don't care if he's a better winner, Vince would be too if he played next to Shaq, in fact, he would have won something.

Who cares if he made one all-nba ifrst team because Jordan was gone? Jordan was retired when Carter and McGrady were in their prime as well, shouldn't take away from their accomplishments.

Of course it matters, he made the teams when the best player was sitting out. McGrady or Vince never had Bryant, Iverson, Wade, Nash sit out.

And what was Payton better at in '95 and '96 other than defense? Those 2 were debatable overall.

Defense by miles, and offense. Just because the stats don't show it, which is your be all and end all, doesn't mean its not so. Payton was able to lead his team to more wins, with equal talent (saying this due to Shaq being out for 30 odd games).

I was referring to T-Mac's overall prime. When T-Mac was in prime as an overall player, he was not a very good defender.

He averaged 2spg and 1bpg in his prime, and with his defensive talents he didn't do it by going off his man and trying to pick pocket guys from behind or too much gambling.

[plowking]

What's wrong with saying Penny was a better passer than Hill? Did you even watch Penny play? And yes, he was a better winner than Hill. In six healthy seasons in his prime, Hill made the playoffs 4 times and his numbers were comparable to his season numbers only once(he can't be blamed for 2000 though due to the injury). Penny stepped up his game in the playoffs, look at the 1997 playoffs or the 1995 finals. Look at what Penny did when Shaq was injured in 1996 and look his record with Orlando even after they replaced Shaq with Rony Seikaly who hadn't played well the last 2 seasons and that was with Nick Anderson already being done mentally after the 1995 finals(he dropped to a 40% FT shooter).

And Penny was typically a good perimeter defender, better than most of the star perimeter players of the past decade who very rarely even try to play 1 on 1 defense.

He played 5 games in the 97 playoffs. Anyone can have a great stretch or series...

No, you aren't a better winner just because you got stuck next to one of the most dominant centers at his absolutely glory days.

And once again, no, he wasn't a very good defensive player. He's the only star guard Shaq has played with that hasn't gone on a all defensive team. He really was a poor defender.