Kareem or Magic.. Who had the most impact on the lakers?

[HighFlyer23]

Kareem >>>>>>>>>>

[xoneatom]

Kareem was unstoppable, but Magic made the Lakers unstoppable.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Until '84 it was KAJ, maybe even 1985 as well (they were at least equal in terms of impact in 1985). After that, Magic.

[SpecialQue]

Definitely Magic in my opinion. I don't think Kareem cared as much about winning until Magic got there.

I'm one of the few that ranks Magic higher than Kareem.

And I'm probably the only person who ranks Magic higher than Jordan. Yeah, I said it. Tell me one player who had the all-around impact that Magic had on his team during that rookie year.

[jlip]

To piggyback off jlauber's post...

The debate between Kareem and Magic as Lakers places Kareem somewhat at a disadvantage because quite a bit of Kareem's success came as a Buck (ROY, 3 MVPs, 1 Finals MVP, and his best statistical seasons) and not as a Laker. Also, the Lakers' championship success corresponds with the arrival of Magic (although Kareem played a HUGE and sometimes underrated role).

But let's also look at both players' success as Lakers without each other.

Kareem played 4 seasons in LA without Magic which were in his prime. Kareem at that time was considered the most individually dominating player in the game. But in those 4 "Magicless" seasons Kareem led the Lakers to very limited success which includes a losing season where they missed the playoffs (Kareem played in ALL 82 games that season) and a 1st round exit. They only made it as far as the conference Finals one season and got swept with Kareem in his prime. In those 4 seasons the Lakers averaged only 46 wins. In '79 before Magic got there, the Lakers were basically an average middle of the pack team not that much different than the present day Hawks.

Magic played in 2 seasons without Kareem and led the Lakers to the best record in the entire NBA the 1st season and the NBA Finals the next.

Whether its deserved or not, Magic is viewed by the organization and the public as the reason the Lakers went from being bridesmaids to brides. Yes they won the '72 title, but since the days of Mikan, that had been their only championship before Magic arrived despite making it to so many Finals.

[whoartthou]

And I'm probably the only person who ranks Magic higher than Jordan. Yeah, I said it. Tell me one player who had the all-around impact that Magic had on his team during that rookie year.

no defense by magic..

[whoartthou]

To piggyback off jlauber's post...

The debate between Kareem and Magic as Lakers places Kareem somewhat at a disadvantage because quite a bit of Kareem's success came as a Buck (ROY, 3 MVPs, 1 Finals MVP, and his best statistical seasons) and not as a Laker. Also, the Lakers' championship success corresponds with the arrival of Magic (although Kareem played a HUGE and sometimes underrated role).

But let's also look at both players' success as Lakers without each other.

Kareem played 4 seasons in LA without Magic which were in his prime. Kareem at that time was considered the most individually dominating player in the game. But in those 4 "Magicless" seasons Kareem led the Lakers to very limited success which includes a losing season where they missed the playoffs (Kareem played in ALL 82 games that season) and a 1st round exit. They only made it as far as the conference Finals one season and got swept with Kareem in his prime. In those 4 seasons the Lakers averaged only 46 wins. In '79 before Magic got there, the Lakers were basically an average middle of the pack team not that much different than the present day Hawks.

Magic played in 2 seasons without Kareem and led the Lakers to the best record in the entire NBA the 1st season and the NBA Finals the next.

Whether its deserved or not, Magic is viewed by the organization and the public as the reason the Lakers went from being bridesmaids to brides. Yes they won the '72 title, but since the days of Mikan, that had been their only championship before Magic arrived despite making it to so many Finals.

just curious, but what did the rosters look like before magic came and after he came?

[LAClipsFan33]

Kareem didn't win with the Lakers for 4 years until Magic showed up in 1979-80.

And Magic wouldn't have won sh!t if Kareem wasn't there when he got there. So tired of this argument...

[LAClipsFan33]

just curious, but what did the rosters look like before magic came and after he came?

A hell of a lot better after Kareem left than before Magic came

[bdreason]

Most impact on the Lakers? Probably Magic.



More dominant player? Kareem.

[bdreason]

Kareem didn't win with the Lakers for 4 years until Magic showed up in 1979-80.

And Kareem won a title without Magic, playing for a nothing franchise.


How many titles did Magic win without Kareem again?

[jlauber]

And Magic wouldn't have won sh!t if Kareem wasn't there when he got there. So tired of this argument...

Let's see here...

Game six of the NBA Finals, in Magic's ROOKIE season, on the ROAD, and withOUT Kareem, who was at home sleeping on his couch...and all Magic did was put up a 42 point game, on 14-23 shooting from the field, and a perfect 14-14 from the line...with a GAME-HIGH (and by a huge margin) 15 rebounds, along with seven assists, in LEADING the Lakers to a clinching title win.

Magic was injured in the following season, and was nowhere 100% in the playoffs. Did Kareem step up like Magic? No, he was outplayed by Moses, and the 40-42 Rockets stunned LA.

In the very next season, it was MAGIC who dominated in the post-season, particularly the Finals, and again winning the Finals MVP. Kareem was below average in the post-season that year.

In the 86-87 season, it was MAGIC and then Worthy who led LA to a dominating title, with Kareem contributing as the "third wheel."

In the 87-88 season, it was again MAGIC and Worthy who led LA to a hard-fought seven game series title win over the Pistons. How about Kareem? He played poorly in the entire post-season, and was simply AWFUL in the Finals (he averaged 13 ppg, 4 rpg, and shot .414...and was a non-factor defensively.) So, the Lakers essentially won the title that year DESPITE Kareem. AC Green and Mychael Thompson played even better than Kareem.

In the next season, the Lakers were 11-0 going into the Finals. They were already without Byron Scott going into the Finals, and then Magic went down mid-way in game two, in a tie game...and was lost for the series. The Lakers were SWEPT without him. Kareem was worthless in the entire series.

Kareem retired, and Magic led LA to a 63-19 record, which was the best record in the league, and the Lakers' SECOND BEST record in the decade of the 80's. And then Magic took that "Showtime" team, which was well past their peak, and injury-riddled, to a 58-24 record, and yet another Finals.

Interesting too that WITH Kareem, Magic's Lakers averaged 58 wins per season, and withOUT Kareem, they averaged 61 wins per season, despite the twilight of their Dynasty.

just curious, but what did the rosters look like before magic came and after he came?

Kareem played with players like Wilkes, Hudson, Nixon, and Dantley in the two seasons before Magic arrived. Also, interesting was the fact that while Wilkes was an under-sized PF, he was also an under-sized PF on the '75 Warriors...a team that Rick Barry led to a title.

Those Laker teams were probably as talented as any team in the league in those two seasons, and in fact, Kareem failed to take 59, 60, and 63 win team's to titles earlier in the decade, as well (and only one Final in those three years.) And this was the worst decade in NBA history for championship teams, too. The one title he won came against a Bullets team that went 42-40. The Warriors, behind Barry, went 48-34 in '75. The '77 Blazers not only won the title with a 49-33 record, they swept Kareem's 53-29 Lakers in the WCF's. In '78 the 44-38 Bullets won an NBA title, and in '79 the 52-30 Sonics, with ONE borderline HOF player mowed down the Lakers, 4-1 in the playoffs en route to a title.

I'm sorry, but I see a SIGNIFICANT pattern in all of the above.

[Sarcastic]

And Magic wouldn't have won sh!t if Kareem wasn't there when he got there. So tired of this argument...

Another Nostradamus in the house that can predict exactly how events would play out in an alternate reality.

Looking at the facts in our normal reality we find that Magic Johnson actually led a past prime Lakers team all the way to the finals, and only lost to an upcoming superstar that you may or may not have heard of. His name was Michael Jordan.

[Sarcastic]

And Kareem won a title without Magic, playing for a nothing franchise.


How many titles did Magic win without Kareem again?

Kareem needed Oscar's help. How many did he win without Magic or Oscar?

[jlauber]

And Kareem won a title without Magic, playing for a nothing franchise.


How many titles did Magic win without Kareem again?

Let's examine Kareem's title first. The Bucks were wiped out by the Knicks in the previous season, 4-1. They subsequently acquired Oscar, and ran roughshod over the NBA in '71. Kareem was magnificent that season (IMHO it was his greatest all-around season if you include the post-season.) However, has any title team ever had an easier road to a title than Kareem's Bucks that year? They beat a 41-41 Warrior team in the first round of the playoffs. Then, in the next round, they beat a 48-34 Laker team that was without their SECOND and THIRD best players in the entire post-season (West and Baylor), and while an aged Wilt, only a year removed from major knee surgery battled Kareem to a statistical draw, the Bucks overwhelming edge in talent was just too much for LA to overcome. Then, Kareem's Bucks swept a 42-40 Bullets team in the Finals.

As for Magic, I maintain that his '88 Lakers would have won the title without Kareem, who was just awful in the Finals. Kareem was no better than the Lakers 5th or 6th best player in the post-season, and for sure in the Finals that year. Furthermore, LA was such a dominating team in '87, that I really believe that the Lakers could have won a title without Kareem, and with Thompson and Green playing more minutes. Finally, we also know that Magic could take over a clinching game six win in the Finals in his rookie season, and with Kareem at home watching the game on TV.