Dr J: The Most Underrated Superstar Ever

[PTB Fan]

Dr J could be argued even higher than that. He's definitely underrated, but most underrated superstar ever? No way. Elgin Baylor is more underrated than him.

[Yung D-Will]

I honestly didn't see that much of a difference between 10-15 up until like 2010.

Between Kobe,Oscar,DR.J,West,Moses Malone I don't see how you can take it as an insult that any of these players would be above each other.

Until Kobe won his 5th championship I didn't feel he cemented himself at 10.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Is there a convincing argument for Erving not being ranked ahead of the likes of Kobe, West and Hakeem?

Of course, Hakeem was a flat out better player. Offensively, and especially defensively. Hakeem anchored a defense for years like few could, led the league in rebounding and developed until a better scorer who also created more for his teammates. Houston won championships running their offense through Hakeem. Not just asking him to score 25-30 ppg or more(which he did), but getting constantly doubled and tripled and finding his teammates.

Did Erving really do anything that matches Hakeem's back to back runs or leve of play on the court throughout his prime? And to add to that, Hakeem had a much more successful NBA career with the back to back titles as the best player and his '86 run to the finals.

Doc had the 2 ABA titles, but when there's 2 leagues splitting the top players in the league, it can't be viewed the same as winning a title when the talent pool had expanded due to the growth in popularity and all of the top players were in one league. Particularly when that league(though not that far behind the NBA) was still the inferior one at the time.

Kobe was/is also a superior all around player whether it was becoming a better scorer and much more of a playmaker(regardless of era) and a better defensive player. While some of Kobe's all-defensive selections have been a stretch in recent years, he did earn the reputation in the first place. I've never heard anyone claim Doc's defense.

And to add to that, Kobe also ended up with a more successful NBA career or professional career in general with 5 rings, 2 of which came as the best player and 2 more came as a top 3 player in the league(top 5 at worst).

[WillC]

Of course, Hakeem was a flat out better player. Offensively, and especially defensively. Hakeem anchored a defense for years like few could, led the league in rebounding and developed until a better scorer who also created more for his teammates. Houston won championships running their offense through Hakeem. Not just asking him to score 25-30 ppg or more(which he did), but getting constantly doubled and tripled and finding his teammates.

Did Erving really do anything that matches Hakeem's back to back runs or leve of play on the court throughout his prime? And to add to that, Hakeem had a much more successful NBA career with the back to back titles as the best player and his '86 run to the finals.

Doc had the 2 ABA titles, but when there's 2 leagues splitting the top players in the league, it can't be viewed the same as winning a title when the talent pool had expanded due to the growth in popularity and all of the top players were in one league. Particularly when that league(though not that far behind the NBA) was still the inferior one at the time.

Kobe was/is also a superior all around player whether it was becoming a better scorer and much more of a playmaker(regardless of era) and a better defensive player. While some of Kobe's all-defensive selections have been a stretch in recent years, he did earn the reputation in the first place. I've never heard anyone claim Doc's defense.

And to add to that, Kobe also ended up with a more successful NBA career or professional career in general with 5 rings, 2 of which came as the best player and 2 more came as a top 3 player in the league(top 5 at worst).

Hakeem won back-to-back titles while Michael Jordan took some time off.

If Magic Johnson took a career break in the early 1980s, who's to say that Julius Erving wouldn't have a couple more rings? (The 76ers reached the Finals three years out of four, winning one of them, losing two to the Lakers).

Hakeem's legacy is overstated. He torched David Robinson in the playoffs and that's what everyone remembers. And yet, in 42 meetings between the two players, Robinson's team won 30 of the games and he put up superior numbers in identical minutes (Robinson averaged slightly less PPG but took 5 less shot attempts, i.e. he shot better from the field). That's not to say Robinson is the better player. But it amazes me that people rank Hakeem about 10th all-time but Robinson is all the way down at about 25th.

Kobe spent the majority of his career as a) the second best player on his team, or b) a selfish ball-hog. He finally grasped how to lead his team at the age of 30.

In terms of statistics and accolades, I'd take Erving over Kobe. In terms of championship success, Kobe has the edge.

Factor in legacy as the tie-breaker, I'd take Erving overall.

[NugzHeat3]

Hakeem won back-to-back titles while Michael Jordan took some time off.

If Magic Johnson took a career break in the early 1980s, who's to say that Julius Erving wouldn't have a couple more rings? (The 76ers reached the Finals three years out of four, winning one of them, losing two to the Lakers).

Hakeem's legacy is overstated. He torched David Robinson in the playoffs and that's what everyone remembers. And yet, in 42 meetings between the two players, Robinson's team won 30 of the games and he put up superior numbers in identical minutes (Robinson averaged slightly less PPG but took 5 less shot attempts, i.e. he shot better from the field). That's not to say Robinson is the better player. But it amazes me that people rank Hakeem about 10th all-time but Robinson is all the way down at about 25th.

These are terrible, played out arguments.

Your head to head numbers are essentially worthless because neither guarded each other full-time due to foul trouble since both teams relied heavily on their star big man. Unfortunately, this is something you could only tell by watching the games.

You should also look deeper into how each player did in the playoffs. Hakeem wasn't dominated by Karl Malone and the Jazz; it was more or less the other way round. Hakeem didn't fold under pressure either and was more of a prototypical, back to basket center instead of a face up player and the latter is far easier to shut down by a great defense.

As is the claim about Jordan's retirement. It is not Hakeem's fault that Jordan took time off. Jordan has also said he didn't think the Bulls could beat the Rockets so make of that what you will. The winner of the match up isn't set in stone. I say Hakeem's legacy would be far greater if he takes the Bulls dynasty down. Funny how that's never considered.

[Jacks3]

Kobe spent the majority of his career as a) the second best player on his team, or b) a selfish ball-hog. He finally grasped how to lead his team at the age of 30.

In terms of statistics and accolades, I'd take Erving over Kobe. In terms of championship success, Kobe has the edge.

Wow @ this moron.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Hakeem won back-to-back titles while Michael Jordan took some time off.

If Magic Johnson took a career break in the early 1980s, who's to say that Julius Erving wouldn't have a couple more rings? (The 76ers reached the Finals three years out of four, winning one of them, losing two to the Lakers).

Actually, the equivalent of Jordan returning late in '95 did occur in '81. Magic missed 45 games of that regular season and played very poorly vs the Rockets in that mini-series vs Houston which eliminated the Lakers. But Dr. J's Sixers lost to Boston that year regardless.

And the Jordan argument at best could be applied to only one of those titles. Jordan was playing very well in the '95 playoffs, and Chicago losing to Orlando had more to do with Chicago's frontcourt vs Orlando's.

Even so, that's 1 player. When Doc won his 2 titles as the best player, it was in a different league altogether. I'd say that when there's 2 titles to be won that's more of an advantage then 1 player sitting out that year.

And Dr. J's NBA ring came as the second best player(the same argument you use against Kobe). It's a lot harder to dismiss Hakeem's 2 rings as the best player than it is to dismiss Erving's 2 in the ABA. Especially when you consider how well Hakeem played during those runs to earn those rings.

Hakeem's legacy is overstated. He torched David Robinson in the playoffs and that's what everyone remembers. And yet, in 42 meetings between the two players, Robinson's team won 30 of the games and he put up superior numbers in identical minutes (Robinson averaged slightly less PPG but took 5 less shot attempts, i.e. he shot better from the field). That's not to say Robinson is the better player. But it amazes me that people rank Hakeem about 10th all-time but Robinson is all the way down at about 25th.

That's because how a player matches up with 1 player tells you very little about how good they were in general(for that, it makes sense to look at their play vs the entire league), and if you're citing head to head stats then you might want to remember that Hakeem and Robinson didn't even always guard each other in those regular season games.

Kobe spent the majority of his career as a) the second best player on his team, or b) a selfish ball-hog. He finally grasped how to lead his team at the age of 30.

Kobe was leading his team the same way the previous season at 29 when he won MVP and played better than he did when he won rings in '09 and '10. He didn't just figure it out in '09.

The '05-'07 Lakers didn't have a chance of even contending so it wasn't Kobe's style that held them back. In fact, Phil told Kobe to score in '06 and carry the team, but he changed to more of a team-oriented game vs Phoenix in the playoffs. Kobe also wasn't firing away a ton of shots for the first half of the 2007 seasons. It wasn't until the limited cast he had went on a losing streak after a ton of injuries(and they had overachieved early going 26-15), that Phil told him to shoot more and Kobe responded with all of those 40, 50 and 60 point games.

Kobe's kind of in a no win situation if you're going to penalize him for winning as the second best player and then penalize him for being a "selfish ballhog" his first 3 years as the best player when there really wasn't a better alternative from '05-'07, or at least one that would have resulted in any more titles.

And Bryant's first 3 titles say a lot about how good he was as well. Especially in 2001 and 2002 when he wouldn't have been the second best player on any other team except for maybe the Spurs. His performances during the '01 and '02 playoffs certainly weren't typical of a second best player, especially 2001 when Kobe had a better playoff run than some players who have won as the best player.

In terms of statistics and accolades, I'd take Erving over Kobe. In terms of championship success, Kobe has the edge.

Factor in legacy as the tie-breaker, I'd take Erving overall.

I disagree, Kobe's statistics are more impressive to me as his was his level of play on the court to go with his championship success.

By the way, if you think Erving was better, that's fine with me, I completely disagree, I'm just arguing the statement that there's not an argument against Doc being better.

[Inception28]

11th greatest player of all-time behind Kobe.

[D-Wade316]

And Dr. J's NBA ring came as the second best player(the same argument you use against Kobe). It's a lot harder to dismiss Hakeem's 2 rings as the best player than it is to dismiss Erving's 2 in the ABA. Especially when you consider how well Hakeem played during those runs to earn those rings.

Dr. J's stats during his 2 championship runs:
74 - 27.9ppg on 52.8fg%, 9.6rpg, 4.8apg, 1.6spg, 1.4bpg, 41.4mpg
76 - 34.7ppg on 53.3fg%, 12.6rpg, 4.9apg, 1.9bpg, 2.0bpg, 42.4mpg

They were equals in both their playoff runs. I don't see any reason to dismiss Dr. J's 2 ABA championships when he played so good.

That's because how a player matches up with 1 player tells you very little about how good they were in general(for that, it makes sense to look at their play vs the entire league), and if you're citing head to head stats then you might want to remember that Hakeem and Robinson didn't even always guard each other in those regular season games.

Agree. H2H statistics are deeply flawed. It in no way should be the basis in comparing players.

I disagree, Kobe's statistics are more impressive to me as his was his level of play on the court to go with his championship success.

By the way, if you think Erving was better, that's fine with me, I completely disagree, I'm just arguing the statement that there's not an argument against Doc being better.

I disagree. Both player's stats in the RS and PS are equal. If we talk about prime and peak, then Dr J's prime is equal, if not better than Kobe's prime. It also lasted much longer, 71-76, to Kobe's 05-09. Erving is also a far more efficient scorer than Kobe.



In terms of achievement, they are equal. The only thing that separates both is legacy, which Doc easily wins. So Dr. J is higher in my all-time list.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Dr. J's stats during his 2 championship runs:
74 - 27.9ppg on 52.8fg%, 9.6rpg, 4.8apg, 1.6spg, 1.4bpg, 41.4mpg
76 - 34.7ppg on 53.3fg%, 12.6rpg, 4.9apg, 1.9bpg, 2.0bpg, 42.4mpg

They were equals in both their playoff runs. I don't see any reason to dismiss Dr. J's 2 ABA championships when he played so good.


Agree. H2H statistics are deeply flawed. It in no way should be the basis in comparing players.

I disagree. Both player's stats in the RS and PS are equal. If we talk about prime and peak, then Dr J's prime is equal, if not better than Kobe's prime. It also lasted much longer, 71-76, to Kobe's 05-09. Erving is also a far more efficient scorer than Kobe.



In terms of achievement, they are equal. The only thing that separates both is legacy, which Doc easily wins. So Dr. J is higher in my all-time list.

I don't think there's a fair way to compare ABA stats to NBA stats, particularly 30 years later. Doc claimed during a 1980 interview that he was having his best NBA season to that point. His numbers that season were 26.9 ppg, 7.4 rpg, 4.6 apg, 3.8 TO, 2.2 spg, 1.8 bpg, 51.9 FG%, 56.8 TS%.

[D-Wade316]

I don't think there's a fair way to compare ABA stats to NBA stats, particularly 30 years later. Doc claimed during a 1980 interview that he was having his best NBA season to that point. His numbers that season were 26.9 ppg, 7.4 rpg, 4.6 apg, 3.8 TO, 2.2 spg, 1.8 bpg, 51.9 FG%, 56.8 TS%.

He only claimed, but the stats says otherwise.

[ShaqAttack3234]

He only claimed, but the stats says otherwise.

He didn't claim it was better than his ABA years. I'm just using that season as reference. The ABA was a more wide open game with an opportunity to put up bigger stats, there's a reason why his numbers dropped so much the year he came to the NBA.

[D-Wade316]

He didn't claim it was better than his ABA years. I'm just using that season as reference. The ABA was a more wide open game with an opportunity to put up bigger stats, there's a reason why his numbers dropped so much the year he came to the NBA.

Yes. The ABA seems to be more offensive oriented than the NBA.

71-72 ABA: 113.5ppg
71-72 NBA: 110.2ppg

72-73 ABA: 111.6ppg
72-73 NBA: 107.6ppg

73-74 ABA: 106.4ppg, 103.0Ortg, 103.0Drtg, 102.6 pace
73-74 NBA: 105.7ppg, 97.7Ortg, 97.7Drtg, 107.8 pace

74-75 ABA: 108.8ppg, 104.7Ortg, 104.7 Drtg, 103.1 pace
74-75 NBA: 102.6ppg, 97.7Ortg, 97.7Drtg, 104.5 pace

75-76 ABA: 112.5ppg, 104.1Ortg, 104.1Drtg, 106.9 pace
75-76 NBA: 104.3ppg, 98.3Ortg, 98.3Drtg, 105.5 pace

So basically, Erving played the same type of defense that is being played today in the NBA, 107.3Drtg last year. His game would easily translate today.

And while he didn't put up the same stats in the NBA, he had three above average seasons in the NBA:
79-80
80-81
81-82

I can't really explain why his numbers dropped drastically when he came to the NBA, but I'm guessing that it was because of his teammates.
76-77 Philly:
Doc - 21.6
McGinnis - 21.4
Collins - 18.3
Free - 16.3

As proven above, his teammates were indeed showboats and ballhogs.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Yes. The ABA seems to be more offensive oriented than the NBA.

71-72 ABA: 113.5ppg
71-72 NBA: 110.2ppg

72-73 ABA: 111.6ppg
72-73 NBA: 107.6ppg

73-74 ABA: 106.4ppg, 103.0Ortg, 103.0Drtg, 102.6 pace
73-74 NBA: 105.7ppg, 97.7Ortg, 97.7Drtg, 107.8 pace

74-75 ABA: 108.8ppg, 104.7Ortg, 104.7 Drtg, 103.1 pace
74-75 NBA: 102.6ppg, 97.7Ortg, 97.7Drtg, 104.5 pace

75-76 ABA: 112.5ppg, 104.1Ortg, 104.1Drtg, 106.9 pace
75-76 NBA: 104.3ppg, 98.3Ortg, 98.3Drtg, 105.5 pace

So basically, Erving played the same type of defense that is being played today in the NBA, 107.3Drtg last year. His game would easily translate today.

And while he didn't put up the same stats in the NBA, he had three above average seasons in the NBA:
79-80
80-81
81-82

I can't really explain why his numbers dropped drastically when he came to the NBA, but I'm guessing that it was because of his teammates.
76-77 Philly:
Doc - 21.6
McGinnis - 21.4
Collins - 18.3
Free - 16.3

As proven above, his teammates were indeed showboats and ballhogs.

Offensive/Defensive ratings of the 70's have a lot to do with the talent being split between 2 leagues, imo as well as offensive skills progressing a lot(particularly when it comes to perimeter players).

Ball handling skills in particular(and you could argue that has to do with how the game is officiated as well, but there's no doubt the skills have progressed). Same with outside shooting.

Spacing also appeared to be worse in halfcourt offenses. Shot selection to some degree as well in a faster paced game.

[PTB Fan]

Doc played pretty well in the Finals.

Actually, he averaged 28.5 points and 11.2 rebounds in the first and 37.9 points and 14.2 boards in the second, both shooting above 50%. He faced Bobby Jones in 76 when he put up those nice stats en route to a title.