How truly good was Dr.J?

[Gotterdammerung]

Relying on stats and hilghlight clips is a common pastime for the current YouTube generation but we should stick to eyewitnesses and articles from the times:

Doctor J did struggle enough with sore knees in the late seventies that led sports illustrated to feature an article in march 1979 titles "hey, what's up with the Doc?" in it, Erving's former ABA coach al Bianchi said: "Julie used to take off and really soar. And that's the sad part of seeing him now. The Doc can't fly no more " another coach said "I don't know if it's the big contract, plain disgust, concern about his longevity, or just that he's burnt out and can't do it nightly anymore but Dr. J is not the player we once knew. The electricity isn't there. The truth is that- except for a few playoff games in '77 and the all star games- the guy has been on vacation for three years. Somebody else has been masquerading as number 6. On a consistent basis Julius has played to about 40 percent, tops, of the ability he showed in the ABA."

[Gotterdammerung]

Bill Simmons has a great explanation why the doc didn't perform the same way in the NBA he did in the ABA:
[list]stronger league postmerger[*]More elaborate defensive plans that forced doc to take 20 footers and foul him if he tried to dunk[*]Played the most stacked position: Walter Davis, Bernard King, dantley, Dandridge, Havlicek, Barry, Wilkes, Jones, Bird, Dominique, etc., etc. [*]Knees shot from riding coach and playing on bad floors for 5 years in ABA[/list]

[ShaqAttack3234]

Sports Illustrated - November 05, 1979

Erving has revitalized knees.

The Erving knees, heavily braced against chronic weakness for six seasons, are no longer under wraps after Doc spent the summer undertaking a concentrated leg-strengthening program supervised by Joseph Zohar, a Long Island physical therapist. Erving opened the season with a 27-point night in Washington and followed it with an NBA career-high 44 points in the second game, against Houston. He had a 27-point average, six over his three-year NBA scoring rate, through last week.

"Julius is getting points more quietly than he did in the ABA," says Bobby Jones. "You used to stop and just watch him. Now he just goes and goes and you hardly notice him. When he scored 44 I thought it was more like 20." Which is not to say that he has given up flying like the Dr. J of yore. For the New York television audience on Friday night he did a couple of incredible scooping lay-in drives and one classic behind-the-head breakaway jam on his way to 27 points in a 127-116 win over the Knicks.

Interesting, so that may have been why he had such a great 1980 season.

Relying on stats and hilghlight clips is a common pastime for the current YouTube generation but we should stick to eyewitnesses and articles from the times:

Doctor J did struggle enough with sore knees in the late seventies that led sports illustrated to feature an article in march 1979 titles "hey, what's up with the Doc?" in it, Erving's former ABA coach al Bianchi said: "Julie used to take off and really soar. And that's the sad part of seeing him now. The Doc can't fly no more " another coach said "I don't know if it's the big contract, plain disgust, concern about his longevity, or just that he's burnt out and can't do it nightly anymore but Dr. J is not the player we once knew. The electricity isn't there. The truth is that- except for a few playoff games in '77 and the all star games- the guy has been on vacation for three years. Somebody else has been masquerading as number 6. On a consistent basis Julius has played to about 40 percent, tops, of the ability he showed in the ABA."

I don't use highlight clips to evaluate players, I'm talking about full games. It seems like that quote that Abe posted explains why Dr. J had a career season in 1980, or at least his best NBA season.

Simmons point about the league being stronger after the merger is the primary reason for Julius nevering matching his ABA numbers, IMO, as well as the style of the league which has a lot to do with his rebounding numbers in particular.

[Jasper]

you aren't going to get lists from me , simply because Dr.J is the perfect example of how hard it is to rank a player when he played in more than one league.
Was is important to know besides being a HOF'er and a champion is what he did for the history of basketball.
We need to think of the 50's and 60's and how 'organized' the play was.
Wilt is probably the first real creative player in league history.
Early 70's the playground became the back drop of the NBA in regards to creativity. (NY playgrounds was the mecca)
But who put the stamp on it was ABA/NBA Dr. J.
All kids including myself as well as NBA players as kids to pro's looked to Dr.J's creative genius on using the basketball court as his art form.

Nique' , MJ and a host of other players all state his creativity helped them think out side of the 'organized' play of basketball and become the players we see today.

[Niquesports]

you aren't going to get lists from me , simply because Dr.J is the perfect example of how hard it is to rank a player when he played in more than one league.
Was is important to know besides being a HOF'er and a champion is what he did for the history of basketball.
We need to think of the 50's and 60's and how 'organized' the play was.
Wilt is probably the first real creative player in league history.
Early 70's the playground became the back drop of the NBA in regards to creativity. (NY playgrounds was the mecca)
But who put the stamp on it was ABA/NBA Dr. J.
All kids including myself as well as NBA players as kids to pro's looked to Dr.J's creative genius on using the basketball court as his art form.

Nique' , MJ and a host of other players all state his creativity helped them think out side of the 'organized' play of basketball and become the players we see today.

Words have many meanings and connotation.People use Words to send subliminal messages "Organized' "Streetball" conscience or unconsciencely it is used to describe a lower form of basketball in the minds of some.

Basketball may be the most athletic sport of all sports. The need for a combination of speed, quickness,strength,vertical, and mental aspect is so much greater than any other sport.Yet individuals that show the gift to perform with these athletic skills are for some reason delegated to being just an athletic player with little mention to the hard work and IQ that player had to develop.
When a player makes a move that leaves the viewers in awe it's rarely mentioned the thought by that player of what was needed to make the play.
A behind the back between the legs dribble to split 2 defenders a reverse layup using the rim to get pass a defender,looking off a teammate to confuse the defender to open up a clear passing lane. All these take thought and IQ .It's very organized .A player doesn't have a higher IQ because he has limited Athletic ability.However,A player that can improvise to make a play using his athleticism shows a very high IQ.

[alexandreben]

It appears the Sixers legends get the treatment these days, from Wilt on down to Iverson, and all in between.

Philly, IMO, has the most talented players of all time, it would be incredible to watch an all-time 76ers team on the court... Wilt, Barkly, Dr.J, Greer, AI, Jackson, "Boston Strangler"(God.. I love that nickname!)...


BTW, despite how great he was, here's Dr.J's top 5 list, enjoy it...

Julius Erving told USA TODAY's Chris Colston that his all-time starting five "was, is, and always will be Oscar Robertson, Jerry West, Elgin Baylor, Wilt Chamberlain and Bill Russell, with Connie Hawkins coming off the bench as my sixth man to play guard, forward and center."

[Gotterdammerung]

I don't use highlight clips to evaluate players, I'm talking about full games.

I'd love to see a single ABA game of the Doctor in his prime. Otherwise you're just talking through your hat once again.

[Duncan21formvp]

Dr. J was in the twilight of his career when I started watching basketball in the mid-80's, but I've read quite a bit of information about him and understand that he completely dominated the ABA. On top of that I was reading where as he was ending his ABA career he was getting consideration as the greatest forward ever. One source said that he readily sacrificed much of his scoring and playing time after joining the Sixers because they wanted a balanced offense that featured at least 3 scorers who could avg. 20ppg as opposed to an offense centered around one dominant 30ppg scorer. He also is arguably the best mid sized shot blocker (6'7 or shorter) in league history.

Having said these things, if he didn't sacrifice so much of his game (i.e. scoring and playing time) once he joined the Sixers, is it possible that he would be spoken of in the same breath as say Kareem, Magic, Bird, and MJ? As a player was he actually that good?

He was great, too bad he was in the ABA in his peak though.

[ShaqAttack3234]

I'd love to see a single ABA game of the Doctor in his prime. Otherwise you're just talking through your hat once again.

I was talking about NBA Dr. J who was still effortlessly dunking on guys like Kareem and Walton, making ridiculous lay ups, blowing by guys and making it look easy in the open court. If you can show me some visual proof that he had lost a noticeable amount of ability by 1980 or 1981 then be my guest. I have a hard time Dr. J, or anyone being that much more athletic than Julius was in his best years with the Sixers, I wouldn't doubt that he had a little more spring in his legs in his early 20's, but not enough to call 1980 Dr. J past his prime.

He may have had down years in the 70's for whatever reason, but he seemed to sort that out in 1980, not just based on how well I've seen him play in games from that year, the athleticism he seemed to regularly display, but also Abe's quote from that article.

[Fatal9]

Doc looks explosive as hell in all the '77-'80 games I've seen of him (there are actually some of his ABA games in circulation). He was a better player in the NBA from what commentators have mentioned in some of the games I've watched, the consistency on his midrange shot improved a lot, played more intelligently (like all vets). So unless improving skills, game management and IQ suddenly don't matter, I can't see how a player of Doc's caliber peaked at 25, just seems like an excuse to say that we never saw the best of him in the NBA (in reality this is slighting his wonderful skillset if people think he was so dependent on athleticism that he peaked before 25).

I made a dunks/moves compilation of him a few months ago:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vyc9VA_VxLA

That dunk at 20 second mark is from when he is 33. Amazing extension and explosiveness for that age. And the last dunk from free throw line when he is 34. The famous dunk over Cooper was when he was 33. He retained his athleticism really well (as well as anyone imo) into his 30s.

He was incredible in the '77 finals, that's him at his best imo...when he's in takeover mode scoring 30 or 40 and making spectacular plays (dunked on Walton a million times in that series). I don't think it's fair to look at his numbers from '76 to '77, because you could see in that series that he had a gear where he could average 30 a game if he wanted but the team had so much talent that it wouldn't have made sense to. That said, he's still not putting up his ABA numbers in the NBA like averaging 27/16/4, or 32/12/4/3, he was good but not that good. You could honestly rank him anywhere from top 15 to top 25, it's tough to say but I don't care really, I just love watching him play even if it's 30 years later.

[KevinNYC]

Dr J. talked about how he developed his style of dunking. He was playing a college All American game and he wasn't considered among the best because everyone felt he played in a weak league and his numbers were inflated. In practice he said there were about ten guys with stronger reps than his. In the game, he went up against Artis Gilmore (7'2") and another tall well-known guy who's name I forget. He said he threw it down so hard he landed on his back. He said that was when he said, I can dunk on anyone and he was never go to have any fear again. He definitely changed the game. The difference between him and Michael might be that Jordan was a better outside shooter (Jordan really developed his shot over time) and Jordan was a better defender all over the court. His leaping ability combined with his some really big hands, made him able to do shots no one else could conceive. Windmill reverse layups and finger rolls. If I remember correctly, he didn't go to his left well.

[KevinNYC]

Also Dr. J had a much better foul line dunk than Jordan. (Did Jordan ever throw down one of those in a game? I know the Dr. did.) Jordan would hold his front arm in front of him and reach out to the basket. Dr J. held his arm straight and his body would get closer to the rim and then he just tomahawk it through. Dr. J was one of the best fask break finisher of all time. Even if you had two guys back, he was able to get two clear steps, it was over. Didn't matter who was back there either....as the compilation of dunks over Walton and Jabbar can attest.

[Gotterdammerung]

I was talking about NBA Dr. J who was still effortlessly dunking on guys like Kareem and Walton, making ridiculous lay ups, blowing by guys and making it look easy in the open court. If you can show me some visual proof that he had lost a noticeable amount of ability by 1980 or 1981 then be my guest.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. But then again, I never credited you with logic in the first place. :

I have a hard time Dr. J, or anyone being that much more athletic than Julius was in his best years with the Sixers, I wouldn't doubt that he had a little more spring in his legs in his early 20's, but not enough to call 1980 Dr. J past his prime.

Shaqattack is being disingenuous again, i see. What else is new?

You clearly said that you saw complete games. Now, when asked if you had ABA games at hand, you backpedal quickly in a cloud of dust.

Sure, he seems athletic in NBA games during 1977-80 , dunking on Bill Walton in 77 finals, but is that enough to conclude that he was the same guy? Perhaps according to Shaqattack's logic, but some of us aren't as easily satisfied.

Plus you also dated an athlete's prime to be 26 - 30. Now you're insisting that he at 30 was the equivalent of his peak during the ABA days.

He may have had down years in the 70's for whatever reason, but he seemed to sort that out in 1980, not just based on how well I've seen him play in games from that year, the athleticism he seemed to regularly display, but also Abe's quote from that article.

That's a single article in direct contrast to many, many, many others (read Loose Balls by Terry Pluto, for example) that clearly said he wasn't the same in the NBA - Hubie Brown - due to many factors, and due to the obvious fact that an athlete at 30 is no longer at the athletic peak of his career. Hard to put all your eggs in a single basket, even if he was having a great year. In fact, Dr. J suffered from tendinitis and arthritis during his ABA days and had to stop playing at Rucker park during the summers to have his knees recuperate for the upcoming season. Plus in 1979-80 Coach Cunningham had the team feature Doctor J more that season, hence the 29.6 output.

Basically, a basketball player reaches his athletic prime much earlier, at 25, 26 or so, and if his work ethic is off the charts, he can make up for any loss in athleticism with smarts that conserve energy, waste no motion like Kevin Garnett, etc., etc., and continue to maintain his performance at a high level. Then the stamina goes after 30-32, and no matter how smart you are, your body can no longer respond.

Check the careers of many other high-flying dunkers like Dominque Wilkins, David Thompson, Vince Carter, Clyde Drexler, and you'll see the same thing - they reached their athletic peak early, and depending on circumstances, their prime extended good performance. Doctor J is no different.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Shaqattack is being disingenuous again, i see. What else is new?

at this clown.

You clearly said that you saw complete games. Now, when asked if you had ABA games at hand, you backpedal quickly in a cloud of dust.

I never claimed to have full ABA games, idiot, I've seen many Sixers games from the late 70's/early 80's, though and he was extremely explosive in those games.

Sure, he seems athletic in NBA games during 1977-80 , dunking on Bill Walton in 77 finals, but is that enough to conclude that he was the same guy? Perhaps according to Shaqattack's logic, but some of us aren't as easily satisfied.

I'm talking about just about every game I've seen from that era he's looked explosive in.

Plus you also dated an athlete's prime to be 26 - 30. Now you're insisting that he at 30 was the equivalent of his peak during the ABA days.

A basketball player's overall prime is usually between 26-30 actually and typically, players don't lose much, if any athleticism until 30 or so.

That's a single article in direct contrast to many, many, many others (read Loose Balls by Terry Pluto, for example) that clearly said he wasn't the same in the NBA - Hubie Brown - due to many factors, and due to the obvious fact that an athlete at 30 is no longer at the athletic peak of his career. Hard to put all your eggs in a single basket, even if he was having a great year. In fact, Dr. J suffered from tendinitis and arthritis during his ABA days and had to stop playing at Rucker park during the summers to have his knees recuperate for the upcoming season. Plus in 1979-80 Coach Cunningham had the team feature Doctor J more that season, hence the 29.6 output.

He featured Dr. J more and not only did his scoring end up at an NBA career high for him, but his FG% reached what was then a career high, regardless of league(though he topped it in '81 and '82).

Basically, a basketball player reaches his athletic prime much earlier, at 25, 26 or so, and if his work ethic is off the charts, he can make up for any loss in athleticism with smarts that conserve energy, waste no motion like Kevin Garnett, etc., etc., and continue to maintain his performance at a high level. Then the stamina goes after 30-32, and no matter how smart you are, your body can no longer respond.

And Dr. J entered the NBA at 26 years old so by your 25-26 figure he'd have been at the tail end of his athletic peak, and the athletic decline is typically minimal until around 30 or so, but a player usually improves his all around game and typically doesn't peak until their late 20's, and as Fatal pointed out, commentators noticed this with Dr. J.

Check the careers of many other high-flying dunkers like Dominque Wilkins, David Thompson, Vince Carter, Clyde Drexler, and you'll see the same thing - they reached their athletic peak early, and depending on circumstances, their prime extended good performance. Doctor J is no different.

Yet, how many were past their prime? Drexler had arguably his best season at 29 years old(almost 30 at the time of the playoffs). Carter's 2007 season ranks among his best, and he was still among the most athletic players in the league, and not only was he 30 that year, but he had also had knee injuries that caused him to miss a significant amount of time around '02/'03.

Nique's prime seem to last pretty damn long. He averaged 30 ppg at 33 years old.

An athletic peak is different from a player's overall peak, and most of the guys you mentioned didn't lose that much athletically until they were close to or around 30.

Here's Kobe at 29, keep in mind that he was in his 12th season and he had 2 knee surgeries already. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2uJ8i_YyRtI

[D-Wade316]

Bump