LeBron to the Heat, a b*tch move!

[ginobli2311]

Bosh is top 10, and he's better than Gasol. If the stats don't sway you, check out his olympic play with team USA in 2008. He was their best big guy on the team.

What part of 3 > 2 don't you understand? Lebron, Wade and Bosh, 3 players who have led their teams to the playoffs, a gold medal and even to the finals AND winning a ring. Kobe/Shaq as great as Shaq is, he's still only one player. That means you'd have one less threat to worry about. If Lebron, Wade, and Bosh team up, you can't double team anyone of them and get away with it. They each get 40 minutes a game, that's an additional 40 minutes of superstar play for your team.

Add to that the amount of foul calls/superstar calls they'd be getting, they'd just run through the league. There's no doubt that Lebron's legacy would greatly diminish if after 7 years he leaves Cleveland without a ring to win one with two other players including Wade who has already won one as the man. You'd be hearing this argument for the rest of your life.

again. you focus solely on offense and not on defense or rebounding. you are ignoring two of the most important criteria to win in the playoffs. oh....and you ignore coaching as well. you also ignore that bosh is going to have to alter his game a lot for this to work.

again...if you are going to diminish rings for lebron if he joins this team. then you need to diminish magic's rings, bird's rings, kobe's rings, shaq's rings, russell's rings. its such a double standard.

LOL. not only all that but wade/lebron don't really fit together well. you can't ignore chemistry on the floor.

what team is better?

kobe/shaq/rice..........kobe/shaq/iverson?

[ginobli2311]

So we're really already making excuses for a team that will have 2 of the 3 best players on the league on it? Wow.

not at all. i'm just telling it like it is. lebron's or wade's titles should not be diminished historically if they win together. otherwise you would have to diminish the titles of a lot of the top ten players ever.

also.....the lakers are just as good or better as a team than this potential heat team. you guys just clearly don't know the game and don't understand what actually wins. those three guys alone is not enough. they don't fit well on paper with eachother.....and they are missing a lot. a lot depends on who else they would get and who the coach would be.

[Tez62]

it would depend on who else miami gets. if they don't get a legit center and its spoelstra coaching.....i can guarantee you that a healthy lakers team coached by phil jackson would be favored in a 7 game series.

obviously that changes with injuries, if riley is coach, or if the heat can somehow get a bunch of solid role players and a center.

but most likely the heat will not be able to bring in a lot of quality role guys or a quality center. and it sounds like spoelstra is remaining as coach. therefore the lakers would be favored.

I still don't see it. The odds are set based on what people will bet, not what they think will actually happen. LA will probably have some ups and downs in the regular season and Miami would probably dominate. Regardless, squares would pound Miami if they were an underdog.

[Tez62]

not at all. i'm just telling it like it is. lebron's or wade's titles should not be diminished historically if they win together. otherwise you would have to diminish the titles of a lot of the top ten players ever.

also.....the lakers are just as good or better as a team than this potential heat team. you guys just clearly don't know the game and don't understand what actually wins. those three guys alone is not enough. they don't fit well on paper with eachother.....and they are missing a lot. a lot depends on who else they would get and who the coach would be.

It doesn't matter, it's all about perception. LeBron's legacy would take a huge hit if he came to Miami and didn't win.

[BallsOut]

again. you focus solely on offense and not on defense or rebounding. you are ignoring two of the most important criteria to win in the playoffs. oh....and you ignore coaching as well. you also ignore that bosh is going to have to alter his game a lot for this to work.

again...if you are going to diminish rings for lebron if he joins this team. then you need to diminish magic's rings, bird's rings, kobe's rings, shaq's rings, russell's rings. its such a double standard.

LOL. not only all that but wade/lebron don't really fit together well. you can't ignore chemistry on the floor.

what team is better?

kobe/shaq/rice..........kobe/shaq/iverson?

I didn't ignore coaching. I already addressed it. I guarantee you Riley is not going to miss out on a chance to get another ring should they get all 3 guys. The guy is a legacy hunter. In regards to your question, obviously the first "team" is better, but you had to go to an entire extreme to try and prove a point. Bosh/Bron/Wade are certainly no Iversons, nor will they ever be so your argument fails. You also can't heavily weigh chemistry into the equation because Kobe STILL WON with Shaq despite their ongoing chemistry problems through the 3 titles.

If Lebron pairs up with Amare only and wins it, it will hold more weight than the kobe/shaq's. If lebron pairs up with Bosh and wins it, it will hold the same weight as kobe/shaq's since both Kobe and Shaq, on their own, are able to lead their teams to the playoffs but nothing more. If Lebron pairs up with Bosh AND Wade (a guy who already led his team to a ring), there's no way it holds the same weight as kobe/shaq's title simply b/c he needed 2 other superstars in their primes.

The critics would be forever calling it a "trio", the big 3 if you will, not a duo, not 2, but 3, which I believe is still > than 2, meaning Lebron needed 2 extra superstars in their primes to do what pass superstars have accomplished with just 1 of.

[BallPhunk]

not at all. i'm just telling it like it is. lebron's or wade's titles should not be diminished historically if they win together. otherwise you would have to diminish the titles of a lot of the top ten players ever.

also.....the lakers are just as good or better as a team than this potential heat team. you guys just clearly don't know the game and don't understand what actually wins. those three guys alone is not enough. they don't fit well on paper with eachother.....and they are missing a lot. a lot depends on who else they would get and who the coach would be.

All this historical mumbo jumbo comparisons mean nothing. It's about TODAY'S NBA, the players place in the game today and the positions they play.

LBJ and DW are 2 of the 3 best in the league, and in some eyes the top 2 (in their prime). And they play basically the same role on their team. I've seen no good comparison historically for this. Shaq & Kobe played completely different roles on their teams. Magic/KAJ/Worthy the same...

Yes, they'd need a few more pieces around them, but this team should dominate. They'd be a force of nature.

It would be like Bird and Magic joining. I hope it doesn't happen; I'd much rather see LBJ join Chicago (or stay in CLE, or NY...).

[ginobli2311]

All this historical mumbo jumbo comparisons mean nothing. It's about TODAY'S NBA, the players place in the game today and the positions they play.

LBJ and DW are 2 of the 3 best in the league, and in some eyes the top 2 (in their prime). And they play basically the same role on their team. I've seen no good comparison historically for this. Shaq & Kobe played completely different roles on their teams. Magic/KAJ/Worthy the same...

Yes, they'd need a few more pieces around them, but this team should dominate. They'd be a force of nature.

It would be like Bird and Magic joining. I hope it doesn't happen; I'd much rather see LBJ join Chicago (or stay in CLE, or NY...).

you make my point for me dude. your exact words "the basically play the same role on their teams" and "Shaq & Kobe played completely different roles"

that is my point. YOU DON'T WANT TWO PLAYERS THAT ESSENTIALLY PLAY THE SAME ROLE. That does not win. Throw Bosh in and its not a great fit. It would be different if you had wade/lebron and a prime ben wallace or dennis rodman. now that would work a lot better. but these guys are not a great fit.

which is why wade/lebron is much worse than a pairing of wade/howard or lebron/howard.

how do you guys not understand this? what do you think would happen if you put kobe/iverson on the same team in their primes? come on.

[ginobli2311]

I didn't ignore coaching. I already addressed it. I guarantee you Riley is not going to miss out on a chance to get another ring should they get all 3 guys. The guy is a legacy hunter. In regards to your question, obviously the first "team" is better, but you had to go to an entire extreme to try and prove a point. Bosh/Bron/Wade are certainly no Iversons, nor will they ever be so your argument fails. You also can't heavily weigh chemistry into the equation because Kobe STILL WON with Shaq despite their ongoing chemistry problems through the 3 titles.

If Lebron pairs up with Amare only and wins it, it will hold more weight than the kobe/shaq's. If lebron pairs up with Bosh and wins it, it will hold the same weight as kobe/shaq's since both Kobe and Shaq, on their own, are able to lead their teams to the playoffs but nothing more. If Lebron pairs up with Bosh AND Wade (a guy who already led his team to a ring), there's no way it holds the same weight as kobe/shaq's title simply b/c he needed 2 other superstars in their primes.

The critics would be forever calling it a "trio", the big 3 if you will, not a duo, not 2, but 3, which I believe is still > than 2, meaning Lebron needed 2 extra superstars in their primes to do what pass superstars have accomplished with just 1 of.

you lose cred saying that a lebron/bosh would hold the same weight as a shaq/kobe title. thats is beyond absurd. shaq is one of the 8 best players of all time....bosh is not even in the same stratosphere. there is no such thing as winning on your own....LOL. wade was a better player than shaq in 06 first of all.....and kobe couldn't win anything on his own. he needed phil jackson and fisher back....and he needed the gasol trade and ariza to develop. its all about team and it always will be.

3 is not always better than 2.....why can't you understand this? you want 2 legit stars that play different roles and then you want a defensive minded rebounder/role player and some good shooters. that is what a good team is. the blueprint for success is not difficult.

if this mega team was wade/bosh/dwight howard.....then i would totally agree with you that this team should win it all every year.

we all agree that lebron is better than howard. so do you finally see my point?

wade/bosh/howard is a much better core and fit than lebron/wade/bosh. that is my main point.

[PowerGlove]

yeah it was Ok to do it back then but not anymore. right? Or maybe is it just because they were playing for L.A.? GTFO

No dumbass, it is because they were playing against the Celtics. A team that had hof's on the bench.

[BallPhunk]

you make my point for me dude. your exact words "the basically play the same role on their teams" and "Shaq & Kobe played completely different roles"

that is my point. YOU DON'T WANT TWO PLAYERS THAT ESSENTIALLY PLAY THE SAME ROLE. That does not win. Throw Bosh in and its not a great fit. It would be different if you had wade/lebron and a prime ben wallace or dennis rodman. now that would work a lot better. but these guys are not a great fit.

which is why wade/lebron is much worse than a pairing of wade/howard or lebron/howard.

how do you guys not understand this? what do you think would happen if you put kobe/iverson on the same team in their primes? come on.

In principle you're right about not wanting the same position, but NOT when it's two players of this caliber. They have the talent to tailor their games to fit together. One draws the double, uh ohh! You'll have two crunch time players. LBJ can play nearly any position and dominate.

As far as Wallace or Rodman being a better fit than Bosh - maybe, maybe not. Bosh was great on the Olympic team, and filing in some tough minded defense around these 3 is probably easier than getting the offensive and rebounding talent of Bosh all in one. And LBJ is a defensive force.

Whether Howard would be a better pairing is irrelevant to how much this team should win. I've said that I think Chicago would be the best fit for LBJ. Regardless, Riley can adjust the offense and they would be scary. And if LBJ comes to the Heat, it's 50% because of Riley.

[Allstar24]

This ginobli guy is obsessed wih glorifying everyone around Kobe and putting down everyone around Wade/Lebron...what a joke...acting like Bosh isn't a superstar

[BallsOut]

you lose cred saying that a lebron/bosh would hold the same weight as a shaq/kobe title. thats is beyond absurd. shaq is one of the 8 best players of all time....bosh is not even in the same stratosphere. there is no such thing as winning on your own....LOL. wade was a better player than shaq in 06 first of all.....and kobe couldn't win anything on his own. he needed phil jackson and fisher back....and he needed the gasol trade and ariza to develop. its all about team and it always will be.

3 is not always better than 2.....why can't you understand this? you want 2 legit stars that play different roles and then you want a defensive minded rebounder/role player and some good shooters. that is what a good team is. the blueprint for success is not difficult.

if this mega team was wade/bosh/dwight howard.....then i would totally agree with you that this team should win it all every year.

we all agree that lebron is better than howard. so do you finally see my point?

wade/bosh/howard is a much better core and fit than lebron/wade/bosh. that is my main point.

Lebron/Bosh winning a title = Kobe/Shaq winning a title is beyond absurd? Let me break this down for you. Prime Lebron today >>>>>> Kobe back then, Prime Shaq >>>>>> Prime Bosh today. Then you factor in how Kobe couldn't win as the man without Shaq after he left, and how Shaq couldn't win as the man before joining Kobe being equivalent to Lebron not being able to win in the playoffs and Bosh not being able to win w/o a superstar 2 guard. If its all about winning as a team according to you and not individual talent, is this argument still absurd?

Once again you are arguing nickels and pennies. It doesn't matter if Wade/Bron/Bosh < Wade/Bosh/Howard because winning a title with 3 superstars in their primes, Wade/Bron/Bosh, will always be easier than winning a title with just two, 99-02 Kobe/Shaq.

[ginobli2311]

In principle you're right about not wanting the same position, but NOT when it's two players of this caliber. They have the talent to tailor their games to fit together. One draws the double, uh ohh! You'll have two crunch time players. LBJ can play nearly any position and dominate.

As far as Wallace or Rodman being a better fit than Bosh - maybe, maybe not. Bosh was great on the Olympic team, and filing in some tough minded defense around these 3 is probably easier than getting the offensive and rebounding talent of Bosh all in one. And LBJ is a defensive force.

Whether Howard would be a better pairing is irrelevant to how much this team should win. I've said that I think Chicago would be the best fit for LBJ. Regardless, Riley can adjust the offense and they would be scary. And if LBJ comes to the Heat, it's 50% because of Riley.

agree with most of that.

like i have said. if riley is the coach then i would give this team the nod over the lakers in a 7 game series. i don't think most people understand just how important coaching is as far as winning titles goes.

i like bosh a lot as a player. and i'm sure he will take a lesser role on this potential team. but that does not change the fact that the heat are going to need a good center that can defend, board, and protect the rim off the ball. that is a huge aspect of winning in the playoffs....and bosh is not capable of doing that. sure....if the heat get haywood then this team should destroy everyone and they will be much better on paper than the lakers. but i don't know if that is realistic or not.

i'm projecting for a team of chalmers/wade/lebron/bosh/below average center.....with a below average bench.....coached by spoelstra. and i think a healthy lakers team would beat that above team in a 7 game series.

if you toss riley, raja bell, and a good center like haywood into the mix then i totally agree with you.

but this thread is about diminishing lebron's legacy if he goes to miami and wins titles. and i don't think it really would. especially with stacked lakers and celtics teams currently. but like i said from the beginning.....it will always have to do with lebron's level of play. if he wins titles and puts up a 30.0 PER and wins a bunch of finals MVP's....then it won't diminish anything at all.

but if he plays like kobe has in the finals and wins like 4 or 5 titles with only 1 finals mvp....then yes.....it will diminish his legacy.

either way though.....if he stays in cleveland the max titles he can win is 2 in the next decade his max all time ranking would be around 8. if he goes to miami the max titles he can win is 7 and his max all time ranking is potentially number 1 all time with a very good chance to go down in the top 5 all time.

so his legacy is going to end up much better by going to miami anyway. unless something totally changes in cleveland and they can get a legit 2nd option and revamp the entire roster. bosh going to cleveland would have been great....but it didn't happen. now the heat are much better and cleveland is getting worse........

[ginobli2311]

Lebron/Bosh winning a title = Kobe/Shaq winning a title is beyond absurd? Let me break this down for you. Prime Lebron today >>>>>> Kobe back then, Prime Shaq >>>>>> Prime Bosh today. Then you factor in how Kobe couldn't win as the man without Shaq after he left, and how Shaq couldn't win as the man before joining Kobe being equivalent to Lebron not being able to win in the playoffs and Bosh not being able to win w/o a superstar 2 guard. If its all about winning as a team according to you and not individual talent, is this argument still absurd?

Once again you are arguing nickels and pennies. It doesn't matter if Wade/Bron/Bosh < Wade/Bosh/Howard because winning a title with 3 superstars in their primes, Wade/Bron/Bosh, will always be easier than winning a title with just two, 99-02 Kobe/Shaq.

sorry dude.

agree to disagree. both kobe and shaq were top 5 players in the league for 2 of those titles and two of the best ever. lebron is on their level. bosh is not even close. so i think lebron winning titles with bosh would trump shaq/kobe winning together.

completely disagree that it is always easier to win titles with 3 superstars.

again.

give me kobe/shaq/rice over lebron/wade/bosh all day long.

[bsyde82]

This ginobli guy is obsessed wih glorifying everyone around Kobe and putting down everyone around Wade/Lebron...what a joke...acting like Bosh isn't a superstar

Don't think ginobli is saying Bosh isn't a superstar, although that depends on your definition of that word. Only that Bosh is not nearly on the same level as Bron/Wade.

Out of the bron/wade/bosh trio, bosh is the one I know the least about, mainly because toronto is rarely on national tv, and because he never really created any type of stir over there. Just banged out 20/10 seasons every season on a perennial east. conf. playoff doormat it seemed.

Now that he's part of this circus FA media circus, I'm starting to think more and more that this guy has the mentality of a 2nd banana/front runner. And I'm saying that as a good thing if bron/wade/bosh were ever to form a trio. Bosh has shown the ability to be a defensive factor in the olympics as someone else has mentioned. So we know he at least has the ability to be a factor. The question is, would he be willing to subjugate himself to that role while reducing his offensive numbers? I say yes...if he's smart, and he seems relatively intelligent judging from interviews, he knows he'll NEVER EVER EVER come close to eclipsing bron/wade's star. With that knowledge, why not settle into your role as a primary defensive anchor on the frontline...even in that role, I could still see him getting like 15-17/game, with 11-12 boards and a few assists.

I can see Bron/Wade becoming a more even Pippen/MJ, with Bron being super pippen, and Wade being poor man's jordan. Bosh would be the more offensively skilled (by a mile) Rodman with worse defense/rebounding (but still solid and not nearly as inferior as Rodman is in the offensive department). Getting one competent center, and getting fortunate w/ draft picks, d-leaguers (the warriors have shown you can find talent here), and veterans willing to take a pay cut to join this. Add on Riley, and ok I've just convinced myself into thinking there's no reason why this can't work out.