It's Crazy how Dr. J isn't a Top 10 GOAT

[wally_world]

Players who played with or watched Dr J play growing up always has him in their top 10

[The-Legend-24]

Who?

[TAZORAC]

He paved the way for so many greats, but he's not in the top 10 list himself. It's insane if you think about it, dude was just a monster back in the day

Dr J wasn't that great of a basketball player, he just did some exciting moves. Limited jump shooter, couldn't really handle the ball.

That being said he can YOUR top GOAT.

[bizil]

For many years, Doc was in the top 10 NBA GOAT. Before Magic, Bird, and MJ built their resumes at their respective positions, Doc was the GOAT SF. And right there with Wilt, Russell, Kareem, Big O, and West in the top 6-7 NBA GOAT. But as time went on, guys like Magic, Bird, MJ, Kobe, Duncan, Shaq, and Lebron built up their resumes and lowered Doc, Big O, and West down.

But here's the thing with Doc. If u say the top 10 GOAT in PROFESSIONAL BASKETBALL HISTORY (NBA and ABA), I think Doc is STILL in the top 10-11. If u look at Doc's TOTAL RESUME, I think he has the most impressive resume of all time for a SF. Plus Doc was the bridge between the ABA and NBA merger AS WELL AS being the living legend Stern built his original marketing schemes around. Bird, Magic, and later MJ were the stars building their legacies. Peak value wise, Bron and Bird are the only SF's FOR SURE I would take over Doc as it is. And longevity wise, Dr. J was more durable than Bird as well. My top 11 GOAT counting NBA and ABA include: (my first five are set in stone, after that the list could be arranged in many ways)

MJ
Kareem
Wilt
Magic
Russell
Kobe
Dr. J
Bird
Duncan
Shaq
Bron

With the impact the ABA has had on the NBA and ABA teams being absorbed into the NBA, I think that should carry a lot of weight. When I think of Dr. J, I think a top 10 GOAT player of all time PERIOD! Sure for a strictly NBA list, he won't make a top 10. He would be in that top 15 range.

[bizil]

Dr J wasn't that great of a basketball player, he just did some exciting moves. Limited jump shooter, couldn't really handle the ball.

That being said he can YOUR top GOAT.

WOW! For starters the bottom line is RESULTS! If u can average 27-30 points in your prime WITHOUT a great jump shot, to me that's VERY IMPRESSIVE! That means Doc put the heat on the D with his slashing in the half court as well as in transition. He would also get to the line often and was a great rebounder for a SF. In terms of handles, it's about getting to where u need to go. Doc was a SF and not a PG. Doc had an epic first step, freak athletic ability, and craftiness that supercedes great handles.

His slashing was so epic, it SET UP his midrange game. And Doc did have a good midrange game, but it wasn't great like Bird, English, Dantley, or King in that era. To score as many points as Doc did into the late 80's, u had to be great. U can't score as many points as Doc did only on dunks. Doc was doing things with those mitts that players today still can't do. Watch the way the guys like Doc, Gervin, and MJ do layups. That's epic skill level that transcends ANY ERA!

[Sarcastic]

His NBA resume isn't even close to top 10, it's barely top 25

He shouldn't be judged only on his NBA resume. To do that would be an injustice. His ABA & NBA resume is easily top 15 all time.

[SouBeachTalents]

He shouldn't be judged only on his NBA resume. To do that would be an injustice. His ABA & NBA resume is easily top 15 all time.

That was a tough break for him to play all those prime years in the ABA, but it wouldn't be fair to include his ABA numbers and pretend he was doing that against NBA level competition on a nightly basis. He averaged 29, 12, 5 in the ABA, numbers he never came that close to matching while in the NBA. I'm sure if Jordan, Wilt, or Shaq were in the ABA for 5 seasons, they could inflate their stats noticeably as well.

[bizil]

That was a tough break for him to play all those prime years in the ABA, but it wouldn't be fair to include his ABA numbers and pretend he was doing that against NBA level competition on a nightly basis. He averaged 29, 12, 5 in the ABA, numbers he never came that close to matching while in the NBA. I'm sure if Jordan, Wilt, or Shaq were in the ABA for 5 seasons, they could inflate their stats noticeably as well.

The only numbers that are inflated are the rebounding numbers. For much of Doc's NBA run, he played on deep teams full of offensive stars. Once guys like Free, Mcginnis, and Collins filtered out, he then got Moses Malone and Andrew Toney. So Doc never really had to get those 29 points a night in the NBA with that kind of offensive firepower. And sure the ABA played a quicker pace. But there was no doubt that Doc was an epic alpha dog and great rebounder in the NBA!

And that's why I always make the distinction between NBA GOAT and professional basketball GOAT. Even NBA wise, Doc is in the top 15 in my opinion. One thing that is a major factor in a GOAT list is your peak value as well as your impact on the game. Doc's impact on the game is EASILY top 10 of all time.

[BoutPractice]

You mean inflate their stats like George Gervin and Moses Malone, who improved their stats in the NBA compared to the ABA?

Or Rick Barry, who averaged the exact same line in 1967 playing in the NBA and in 1969 playing in the ABA?

Sure, players like Artis Gilmore saw their stats regress, but he still averaged numbers like 24 and 13 in the NBA.

Julius Erving's statistical regression has little to do with the ABA VS the NBA, but is instead due to a combination of physical factors and him playing for a stacked team.

[SouBeachTalents]

You mean inflate their stats like George Gervin and Moses Malone, who improved their stats in the NBA compared to the ABA?

Or Rick Barry, who averaged the exact same line in 1967 playing in the NBA and in 1969 playing in the ABA?

Sure, players like Artis Gilmore saw their stats regress, but he still averaged numbers like 24 and 13 in the NBA.

Julius Erving's statistical regression has little to do with the ABA VS the NBA, but is instead due to a combination of physical factors and him playing for a stacked team.

Malone is a terrible example, he played his first two years of pro ball in the ABA, one of which he missed half the season.

As for your Barry example, even though he went from putting up a Kobe-esque 29 shots per game in the NBA in '67 to just 22 in the ABA in '69, his scoring average only dropped off 1.5 ppg. But I'm sure it was just a coincidence that his field goal percentage ballooned from 45% to 51% after changing leagues

[EricForman]

He paved the way for so many greats, but he's not in the top 10 list himself. It's insane if you think about it, dude was just a monster back in the day

Not that insane if you actually look at career accomplishments using a combination of statistical analysis PLUS looking at all the non-stats stuff -- how dominate was the player in his prime? did he push his team to another level? did he take over when it mattered?

There's almost no case for Doc to be ranked above Jordan, Kareem, Wilt, Magic, Bird, Shaq, Duncan, Hakeem, Kobe, and Oscar (or even LeBron for that matter).

This is not a diss at Doc, he's an all time great, but we can't just arbitrarily move a player up a ranking of career achievements just because of something like "he was cool as hell and his style was influential". If that's the case, AI should get a big bump on any list simply because he started the hip hop era of hoops.

[BoutPractice]

Malone is a terrible example, he played his first two years of pro ball in the ABA, one of which he missed half the season.

As for your Barry example, even though he went from putting up a Kobe-esque 29 shots per game in the NBA in '67 to just 22 in the ABA in '69, his scoring average only dropped off 1.5 ppg. But I'm sure it was just a coincidence his field goal percentage ballooned from 45% to 51% after changing leagues

Malone is not that poor an example because of the particular shape of his statistical production early in his career. It's all over the place, which furthers my point: it would be dishonest to attribute all changes to a "league effect". My basic observation here is that some ABA players saw their stats regress, others saw their stats improve (of course you didn't address Gervin which was the more compelling example of the list)... which makes it likely that the variation in production was in large part (not 100%, but in large part) the same kind of variation in production you see today, rather than due to a "weak league" effect.

Your broader argument here is quite easy to counteract. Using the Barry example... From 2011 to 2012, LeBron's shooting percentage improved from 53% to 56%. Surely he must have switched to a weaker league. Kobe Bryant's scoring went from 27 ppg to 35 ppg from 2005 to 2006 => weaker league. I'm too lazy to look up better examples but you get the point, just look at say most improved players. A player's statistical production varies quite a bit from year to year, and doesn't always follow an obvious pattern. There are many factors such as age, injuries, but also team strength, motivation, and contract years...

[SouBeachTalents]

Malone is not that poor an example because of the particular shape of his statistical production early in his career. It's all over the place, which furthers my point: it would be dishonest to attribute all changes to a "league effect". My basic observation here is that some ABA players saw their stats regress, others saw their stats improve (of course you didn't address Gervin which was the more compelling example of the list)... which makes it likely that the variation in production was in large part (not 100%, but in large part) the same kind of variation in production you see today, rather than due to a "weak league" effect.

Your broader argument here is quite easy to counteract. Using the Barry example... From 2011 to 2012, LeBron's shooting percentage improved from 53% to 56%. Surely he must have switched to a weaker league. Kobe Bryant's scoring went from 27 ppg to 35 ppg from 2005 to 2006 => weaker league. I'm too lazy to look up better examples but you get the point, just look at say most improved players. A player's statistical production varies quite a bit from year to year, and doesn't always follow an obvious pattern. There are many factors such as age, injuries, but also team strength, motivation, and contract years...

But LeBron & Kobe didn't switch leagues, so we can attribute any change in performance due to their own personal development or team situation. And it really isn't that big a surprise Kobe's ppg went up that much considering he attempted 7 more shots per game from '05 to '06. All I know is, Barry went to the ABA and went on to have his 3 best seasons FG% wise, including the only two times he shot 50% in his career.

I haven't even mentioned how players like Artis Gilmore, Dan Issel, and Connie Hawkins ALL saw their numbers clearly decrease after joining the NBA

[MiseryCityTexas]

Doctor J was still a beast in the late 70s during the nba/aba merger, and would have probably won the nba championship in 77 if the 76ers would have played better team ball instead of selfish playground streetball.

[BoutPractice]

But LeBron & Kobe didn't switch leagues, so we can attribute any change in performance due to their own personal development or team situation.

But there is a logical fallacy in going from this observation to "player A switched leagues, therefore we can attribute all statistical changes to the switch".

On the contrary, that stats often change by a lot from one year to the other in the absence of a switch only supports my hypothesis. Nothing in this observation supports the competing hypothesis.