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Old 05-23-2008, 07:06 AM   #136
mjbulls23
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Default Re: Top 10 PFs of All-Time

If you rank these PF's by their peaks, then I'll put Barkley at #1. However on the all time list Duncan should be #1, & Malone would be higher than Chuck. I can't really comment on Pettit since I haven't seen any game footage of him, but judging by his stats I'd say he's definitely near the top.
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Old 05-23-2008, 07:27 AM   #137
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Default Re: Top 10 PFs of All-Time

Quote:
No Sheed, Rodman?
But Chris Webber, Bob Petit? C'mon man what about Rodman? Petit over Roman?
Fail.

Sheed is good, but not that great. Rodman may have a case, but he absolutely has no argument to be ranked above Pettit. Bob actually led his own teams to the finals. No team was ever built on Rodman.
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Old 05-23-2008, 09:10 AM   #138
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Default Re: Top 10 PFs of All-Time

Quote:
Originally Posted by stewen12
McAdoo should be top 5
If you consider him a power forward, which almost everyone does not.
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Old 05-23-2008, 09:47 AM   #139
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Default Re: Top 10 PFs of All-Time

I don't know if someone in this thread has said this already (I didn't get to read the whole thing) but hasn't KG spent the early part of his career at the small forward, up until 2000? He's had his best and latter years in his tenure as PF, but would having started his career at SF and spending a good portion of it at that position affect his legacy as a PF, Glove_20?
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Old 05-23-2008, 09:59 AM   #140
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Default Re: Top 10 PFs of All-Time

Quote:
Coming from the idiot who said Shawn Marion was better than Tim Duncan back at the all star break. You also said Marcus Camby was first team All-NBA.
whats funny?

there has been ammendments to the official list and it now stands as this:
1. tim duncan
2. kevin garnett
3. karl malone
4. bob pettit
5. charles barkley
6. dirk nowitzki
7. chris webber
8. dolph schayes
9. jerry lucas
10. shawn kemp

i'll play the honorable mentions game too
tom heinsohn, bill bridges, bailey howell, vern mikkelson, larry nance, kevin mchale, elton brand, antoine walker, terry cummings, rasheed wallace

Last edited by Shep : 05-23-2008 at 10:05 AM.
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Old 05-23-2008, 12:36 PM   #141
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Default Re: Top 10 PFs of All-Time

Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Fence
Another good list, Glove.

I agree with Duncan leading the list. I could see maybe moving the other players around, but I don't have much disagreement with your placements. I'd probably try to find a spot for Dolph Schayes and Dennis Rodman, though. I don't think 6 though 10 are too much if any better than those two. Schayes was a great scorer from anywhere, rebounder and passer for his size, even though he wasn't really a power forward (since there really wasn't such a position then) and didn't have a jump shot. He also led his team to a championship and was tougher and more durable than anyone else on this list. And, Rodman was everything but a scorer; only DeBusschere competes with him for defensive versatility. I can't count too much against him, either, since he won 5 rings.

Schayes is a good mention. He was like you said, a good rebounder/scorer/passer for a PF. And he did lead his team to a title. But the thing with him, first of all he was a poor shooter even with the FG% adjustments. He was a little below or at the league averages back then. So today he'd be around 45-46% for a PF, which isn't good.

2nd he didn't play in a league that was very compeitive at all. Most of his career was in the 50s, including his title. He won it before Russell or Chamberlain ever came. Pettit on the other hand won his title against Russell and played a good share of great seasons in the 60s as well. Schayes not so much. He played in a less competitive league compared to everyone else. Today a comparison of Schayes would probably be a Elton Brand with lower FG%. Though their games are kind of diff. too.





Quote:

I'd add Vern Mikkelsen, Maurice Stokes, Tom Heinsohn, Gus Johnson, Spencer Haywood, and Bobby Jones to the Honorable Mentions.

I'll add them.

Quote:
Here are a couple points on which I'm not too sure about, though:
Pettit was a great defender? I donít recall having heard that before. I've heard that, essentially, Pettit wasn't tough enough to rough it up at center, and his teams had more success once they brought in big men to help with that. Pettit was a great rebounder, though, and one thing I've read is that he's one of the greatest offensive rebounders ever. Too bad they didn't count them. As to the competitiveness of his era, he did lead the Hawks to 4 Finals appearances against the Celtics, losing in 6 once, losing in 7 twice, and winning in 7 once. He may also be the most clutch power forward ever.

I've heard a couple of times he was a good defender. He wasn't a dominating defensive Center like Russell or Wilt, but he anchored his Hawk team and they were one of the better teams defensively. Not saying he is a great DPOY Caliber Defender, but def. a good All-Defensive 1st/2nd Defender type a player.

Quote:
Do you consider McHale a better sixth man than John Havlicek?

No, I just forgot about Havlicek.

Quote:
There was a lot of discussion on Hayes being underrated. I may be one who underrates him, but I could see putting him lower on the list (not that I can object much with your placement). As Psileas mentioned, he receieved quite a bit of criticism (like Malone, who I could see below Pettit), especially concerning his intelligence for and dedication to winning team basketball. He wasn't much of a passer. And, I don't know why his defense has gotten credit here; usually, that's considered one of his weaknesses, even though he did have good traditional defensive stats. Apparently, Hayes once asked who was defending the opposing team's center, who was going off, and Unseld replied to Hayes that Hayes was. I also probably don't rank longevity as high as others do.

I've heard from some sources he was a solid defender. I think he made some All-Defensive Teams as well. Once again not dominating, but just solid. A poor man KG on defense would be a good example. But yeah, he did have the longevity.


Quote:
DeBusschere could and did also defend guards. He had great defensive versatility; in one Finals, he's guarding Chamberlain, the next, he's defending guards. Still, I'd put Schayes and Rodman over him.

Its a close call. Dave was almost or as good of a defender as Rodman. Rodman had the rebounding edge (Though Deb. was great at that too), and Debbusschere wasn't a scoring liability and could actually score.

Then you look at the Awards accompliements and you really start seeing why Debusschere should have the edge. 8 Time All-Star compared to Rodman's 2, and All-NBA 2nd once as well. Just "playerwise" Dave was just better than Rodman. He was also a winner as well. 2 Time champion. 3rd best at worst on his title teams. Similar to Rodman, though Rodman has won more times.

Its close though.
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Old 05-24-2008, 12:27 AM   #142
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Default Re: Top 10 PFs of All-Time

Quote:
Originally Posted by Glove_20
Schayes is a good mention. He was like you said, a good rebounder/scorer/passer for a PF. And he did lead his team to a title. But the thing with him, first of all he was a poor shooter even with the FG% adjustments. He was a little below or at the league averages back then. So today he'd be around 45-46% for a PF, which isn't good.
Adjusted, Pettit would be about 47%, and Schayes took more perimeter shots and otherwise drove to the basket. Moreover, (using Hollinger's stats) Hayes 43%, DeBusschere 43%. Nowitzki is a career 47% and is probably a better post scorer than Schayes was. Webber at 48%. So, there doesn't seem to be a significant difference between Schayes and half of the players on your list in era adjusted FG%. (Granted, Schayes' actual FG% looks atrocious without era consideration.) Schayes was also a great FT shooter (85%, led the league 3 times, was in the top 3 10 times), and he got to the line often even for his foul-prone era, so that adds to the thought that Schayes was a good shooter. His TS% is better than some on your list. And, he was a good scorer, with his stats suffering some due to playing part of his career in the dead-ball era.

Schayes was more of a 3 to 4, although he did play some center, too. He wasn't really a 4-5 like Duncan, Pettit, older KG, McHale, Hayes, or even Nowitzki and Webber. He could drive, ran to get open, had 3pt range, and yet was tough--even dirty--and was an elite rebounder during his time (led the league once, 8 times within top 5). Perhaps, most impressive for Schayes, and which you consider highly, is that he was very durable (played 705 consecutive games and played through injuries).

Quote:
2nd he didn't play in a league that was very compeitive at all. Most of his career was in the 50s, including his title. He won it before Russell or Chamberlain ever came. Pettit on the other hand won his title against Russell and played a good share of great seasons in the 60s as well. Schayes not so much. He played in a less competitive league compared to everyone else. Today a comparison of Schayes would probably be a Elton Brand with lower FG%. Though their games are kind of diff. too.
That's true. Still, Schayes' Nats were in the hunt for most of his 16 professional seasons. In additon to a title, they made the Finals 3 times, they took Mikan's Lakers to 7 in the 1954 Finals, Russell's Celtics to 7 in the 1959 Conference Finals. Schayes played against Mikan, etc. during the dead-ball era, but also played against Pettit, Russell, Chamberlain, Baylor, Oscar, etc. and was still an All-NBA player. Until his injury at 33 years old, he lead the Nats over young-to-entering prime Hal Greer, whom Shchayes would have to be ranked ahead of all-time. So, Schayes and his Nats were competitive during two or three eras--sometimes more competitive than Pettit and his Hawks, who often didn't do so well in the regular season and looked rather mediocre outside of the seasons they went to the Finals.

For me, Schayes would be a rather easy selection for top 10. But, he's one of those early players that gets forgotten. I'll concede that Rodman isn't an easy pick, and I like DeBusschere, too.
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Old 05-24-2008, 12:34 AM   #143
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Default Re: Top 10 PFs of All-Time

I want to throw a name in here:

George McGinnis

Yes, he played in the ABA (which, at times, actually had a slower pace than the NBA at the time), and dominated.
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Old 05-24-2008, 01:22 AM   #144
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Default Re: Top 10 PFs of All-Time

I didn't read through the thread (your list is excellent tho Glove20), I just found your picture choice for Dirk extremely funny
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glove_20

Probably the toughest to guard with his great outside game. There hasn't been a better perimeter big man as good as him.

is that a fake dribble? what skills!
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Old 05-24-2008, 01:38 AM   #145
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Default Re: Top 10 PFs of All-Time

switch KG with Dirk and then Webber with KG and you have a good list...

Dirk is a top 5 Power forward...

and where is moses malone
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Old 05-24-2008, 04:00 AM   #146
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Default Re: Top 10 PFs of All-Time

Quote:
Originally Posted by cartmanclone
switch KG with Dirk and then Webber with KG and you have a good list...

Dirk is a top 5 Power forward...

and where is moses malone
Why is Dirk a top 5 PF?
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Old 05-24-2008, 04:04 AM   #147
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Default Re: Top 10 PFs of All-Time

Quote:
Originally Posted by Showtime
Why is Dirk a top 5 PF?

He's not, Cartmanclone is an idiot who doesn't know even the most simple thing about basketball That also explains why he doesn't realize Moses Malone was a center.
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Old 05-24-2008, 09:31 PM   #148
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Default Re: Top 10 PFs of All-Time

Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Fence
Adjusted, Pettit would be about 47%, and Schayes took more perimeter shots and otherwise drove to the basket. Moreover, (using Hollinger's stats) Hayes 43%, DeBusschere 43%. Nowitzki is a career 47% and is probably a better post scorer than Schayes was. Webber at 48%. So, there doesn't seem to be a significant difference between Schayes and half of the players on your list in era adjusted FG%. (Granted, Schayes' actual FG% looks atrocious without era consideration.) Schayes was also a great FT shooter (85%, led the league 3 times, was in the top 3 10 times), and he got to the line often even for his foul-prone era, so that adds to the thought that Schayes was a good shooter. His TS% is better than some on your list. And, he was a good scorer, with his stats suffering some due to playing part of his career in the dead-ball era.

Well in some years Pettit was even higher, many years higher than average FG% in those days. While Schayes was usually lower than average FG%. I don't remember exact numbers, but Pettit is like 47-49%, while Schayes is 44-46% (Adjusted).

Clearly there are differences. Having a PF that shoots that bad? Not a good thing at all for a PF. And I'm sure Dave is at least average in FG% for his era. Hayes FG% isn't great either, and thats why he is ranked 7th. He is other arguments that easily put him over Schayes though.

Quote:
Schayes was more of a 3 to 4, although he did play some center, too. He wasn't really a 4-5 like Duncan, Pettit, older KG, McHale, Hayes, or even Nowitzki and Webber. He could drive, ran to get open, had 3pt range, and yet was tough--even dirty--and was an elite rebounder during his time (led the league once, 8 times within top 5). Perhaps, most impressive for Schayes, and which you consider highly, is that he was very durable (played 705 consecutive games and played through injuries).

I don't consider longevity highly. I just consider it, and don't overlook it.



Quote:
That's true. Still, Schayes' Nats were in the hunt for most of his 16 professional seasons. In additon to a title, they made the Finals 3 times, they took Mikan's Lakers to 7 in the 1954 Finals, Russell's Celtics to 7 in the 1959 Conference Finals. Schayes played against Mikan, etc. during the dead-ball era, but also played against Pettit, Russell, Chamberlain, Baylor, Oscar, etc. and was still an All-NBA player. Until his injury at 33 years old, he lead the Nats over young-to-entering prime Hal Greer, whom Shchayes would have to be ranked ahead of all-time. So, Schayes and his Nats were competitive during two or three eras--sometimes more competitive than Pettit and his Hawks, who often didn't do so well in the regular season and looked rather mediocre outside of the seasons they went to the Finals.

For me, Schayes would be a rather easy selection for top 10. But, he's one of those early players that gets forgotten. I'll concede that Rodman isn't an easy pick, and I like DeBusschere, too.

But either way, most of his good still was in the 50s. He barely had any success in the 60s. He basically faced very inferior competition all his career, and just was an All-Star level there. Similar to Elton Brand.








Summary:
I'll admit its a close call. But this is what it is...


Dolph
Weak FG%
Weak Era
Good Scoring/Rebounding


Dave
Stronger Era
Worse Scoring/Rebounding


It comes down to how much you value how much weaker the era was. I'll give it some further thought...
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Old 05-24-2008, 09:33 PM   #149
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Default Re: Top 10 PFs of All-Time

Quote:
Originally Posted by dawsey6
I don't know if someone in this thread has said this already (I didn't get to read the whole thing) but hasn't KG spent the early part of his career at the small forward, up until 2000? He's had his best and latter years in his tenure as PF, but would having started his career at SF and spending a good portion of it at that position affect his legacy as a PF, Glove_20?

Well he still is widely considered a PF and has most of his career at PF. As long as he is considered a PF, the fact that he played SF shouldn't hurt his legacy at all. If anything it can help his case as he can be considered versatile.

Dennis Johnson, considered a PG, won his Finals MVP as the SG of the Sonics. It hasn't hurt his legacy at all when it comes to ranking PGs.
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Old 05-24-2008, 09:34 PM   #150
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Default Re: Top 10 PFs of All-Time

Quote:
Originally Posted by cartmanclone
switch KG with Dirk and then Webber with KG and you have a good list...

Dirk is a top 5 Power forward...

and where is moses malone
McaDoo (to poster before) and Moses are Centers.
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