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Old 01-04-2016, 01:47 PM   #16
Marchesk
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Default Re: Digging deeper into MJ's 1-9 without Pippen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ClipperRevival
35.5 PPG, 27.4 PER 6.3 RPG, 6.9 APG, 2.4 SPG, 1.5 BPG

Yeah, it's not like Jordan underachieved in those 10 games. He was still Jordan. The only criticism people can make of him back then is that possibly he wasn't the team player that Bird or Magic was. That he needed Phil to come along and help him become a great team player.

And maybe that's true. Thing is that Magic and Bird got drafted into different situations.

What if Magic and Jordan could have "magically" traded places? How would have Jordan have done with a prime Kareem on the roster? Would Magic have helped those Bulls teams achieve better records than they did? Would Bird have?
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Old 01-04-2016, 01:48 PM   #17
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Default Re: Digging deeper into MJ's 1-9 without Pippen.

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Originally Posted by Bankaii
I know it's a crazy thought, but what if MJ had a great enough impact to lead his team to a better record

Seriously his team's record those first 2 years are horrible. Lol at his conference being so tough yet he's making the playoffs with less than 40 wins.

It's funny how MJ's 3peat teammates are degraded to prop him up with the agenda that he did it all by himself. Why wasn't that the case when he was getting SWEPT in the playoffs.

He was a rookie his first season and then he barely played in his second season.

Furthermore, if you look at his third season, the Bulls actually were the ninth best team in the league based on differential despite having the 14th best record.

The bottom line is this criticism is absurd. And its actually funny that really the only criticism of Jordan is from early in his career and his Wizard years. The equivalent would be if the ONLY criticism of Lebron in his career was not making the playoffs in his first 2 seasons. Imagine if that was it, and there wasn't also the numerous losses as a favorite with HCA, being a relatively terrible Finals performer including 2 of the worse finals performance ever for someone of his caliber and the biggest Finals blowout series in history, multiple chokes, being too ball-dominant player, inconsistent jumpshot, etc.

Last edited by guy : 01-04-2016 at 01:57 PM.
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Old 01-04-2016, 01:48 PM   #18
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Default Re: Digging deeper into MJ's 1-9 without Pippen.

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Originally Posted by SyRyanYang
What Lebron stans wouldn't tell y'all is that Jordan played in a very strong Eastern conference the first few years while Lebron was having it easy in a weak East.

The Jack Sikma led Bucks were a great team?

Why were his teams an avg of 36-46 over those 3 years?

Bad teams always get punked in the playoffs. MJs early Bulls teams were no exception.
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Old 01-04-2016, 01:52 PM   #19
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Default Re: Digging deeper into MJ's 1-9 without Pippen.

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Originally Posted by La Frescobaldi
The point is those other guys went to playoffs consistently, and won playoffs constistently, even with poor supporting casts. Not only did they do it, they even did it right off from their rookie years. All of em did it, Jordan never did it.
Sure Shaq not only got swept like Jordan, he got swept 6 times. But his teams weren't even getting to playoffs without him in several cases.

.

That's your point, and you're free to make it, and it's not invalid. It has nothing to do with what I was talking about. That's my point. But just to reply to your comment about not winning anything for year on end, he took the Bulls to a 50-32 record his 4th season with a rookie Pippen and Grant. You talk as if it took him 10 years to achieve anything, and consecutive conference finals losing to a legit ATG team in Detroit, with nowhere near the needed help to advance. His own brilliance took those teams between 88 and 90 as far as they could before Pippen and Grant become legit players in their own right.

Last edited by Dragonyeuw : 01-04-2016 at 01:56 PM.
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Old 01-04-2016, 01:56 PM   #20
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Default Re: Digging deeper into MJ's 1-9 without Pippen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HurricaneKid
The Jack Sikma led Bucks were a great team?

Sikma wasn't on the Bucks until the 86/87 season. And the Bucks were very good in the early to mid 80s with Moncrief, Pressey and Cummings leading them.
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Old 01-04-2016, 02:01 PM   #21
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Default Re: Digging deeper into MJ's 1-9 without Pippen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragonyeuw
That's your point, and you're free to make it, and it's not invalid. It has nothing to do with what I was talking about. That's my point. But just to reply to your comment about not winning anything for year on end, he took the Bulls to a 50-32 record his 4th season with a rookie Pippen and Grant. You talk as if it took him 10 years to achieve anything, and consecutive conference finals losing to a legit ATG team in Detroit, with nowhere near the needed help to advance. His own brilliance took those teams between 88 and 90 as far as they could before Pippen and Grant become legit players in their own right.

That is my point, and I do make it. 4 years is a very long time in the NBA. It's 350 games or more.
I was replying to your post asking who else ever did it:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragonyeuw
The reality is, MJ won when he was supposed to( having HCA, better team) and lost when expected( when he was a one man team, inexperience). He never lost when he had HCA, in other words not allowing either himself and/or his team to under-perform to the level of expectation, nor was he swept out of the playoffs in situations when he had enough help to at least make a series out of it. How many others in the top 10 can you realistically say that about?

The answer is....... just about all of em.

throw shaq out then that's fine - he's probably not a top 10 guy anyway right

Last edited by La Frescobaldi : 01-04-2016 at 02:05 PM.
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Old 01-04-2016, 02:06 PM   #22
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Default Re: Digging deeper into MJ's 1-9 without Pippen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marchesk
Sikma wasn't on the Bucks until the 86/87 season. And the Bucks were very good in the early to mid 80s with Moncrief, Pressey and Cummings leading them.

Sikma is a really good coach.
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Old 01-04-2016, 02:11 PM   #23
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Default Re: Digging deeper into MJ's 1-9 without Pippen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by La Frescobaldi
I was replying to your post asking who else ever did it:



[b]The answer is....... just about all of em

And that answer has nothing to do with what I was talking about.....again.

"He never lost when he had HCA, in other words not allowing either himself and/or his team to under-perform to the level of expectation, nor was he swept out of the playoffs in situations when he had enough help to at least make a series out of it. How many others in the top 10 can you realistically say that about?"

The point you were making about what they did as rookies? True. And also irrelevant to what I was talking about. If I was comparing their impacts as rookies, then your answer would actually be relevant to what I was talking about. But again, its your point and like you said, you made it. It just doesn't apply to mine.

Bird, Duncan, Magic, Lebron, have all lost with HCA with a championship level team. And yes, Shaq is top 10. That's half the list right there. If we're going to nitpick early career MJ's failings, at least team-wise, then its fair to point out the failures of other all-time greats when they were in their prime, and lost when they shouldn't have or got swept when they were actually on competitive teams. MJ in his prime, when favored to win, did so. 6 times. If the worst you can say about MJ is that he failed to lead a scrub Bulls team over the mid 80's Celtics............. OK.

Last edited by Dragonyeuw : 01-04-2016 at 02:34 PM.
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Old 01-04-2016, 02:13 PM   #24
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Default Re: Digging deeper into MJ's 1-9 without Pippen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragonyeuw
The reality is, MJ won when he was supposed to( having HCA, better team) and lost when expected( when he was a one man team, inexperience). He never lost when he had HCA, in other words not allowing either himself and/or his team to under-perform to the level of expectation, nor was he swept out of the playoffs in situations when he had enough help to at least make a series out of it. How many others in the top 10 can you realistically say that about?
Facts.
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Old 01-04-2016, 02:29 PM   #25
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Default Re: Digging deeper into MJ's 1-9 without Pippen.

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Originally Posted by kuniva_dAMiGhTy
The difference being, LeBron had more than enough help on teams that were considered championship or bust. TMac had an atrocious supporting cast in Orlando, but like LeBron, he had tons of help in Houston. Not getting out of the first round despite that is a HUGE black mark on his legacy.

Before he got decent help, Jordan's Bulls were a joke. From 1985-1988 the guy was a one man wrecking ball.
The only time I actually consider him to have lost with "adequate" help was in '11. Dude just disappeared and was playing like dog shit.
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Old 01-04-2016, 02:38 PM   #26
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Default Re: Digging deeper into MJ's 1-9 without Pippen.

looks like Empty Stats Mike couldn't get a better record for his team

it's only when the substance and intangibles on Pippen developed (what does not show up on the statsheet) he started winning
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Old 01-04-2016, 02:41 PM   #27
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Default Re: Digging deeper into MJ's 1-9 without Pippen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragonyeuw
And that answer has nothing to do with what I was talking about.....again.

"He never lost when he had HCA, in other words not allowing either himself and/or his team to under-perform to the level of expectation, nor was he swept out of the playoffs in situations when he had enough help to at least make a series out of it. How many others in the top 10 can you realistically say that about?"

The point you were making about what they did as rookies? True. And also irrelevant to what I was talking about. If I was comparing their impacts as rookies, then your answer would actually be relevant to what I was talking about. But again, its your point and like you said, you made it. It just doesn't apply to mine.

Bird, Duncan, Magic, Lebron, have all lost with HCA with a championship level team. And yes, Shaq is top 10. That's half the list right there. If we're going to nitpick early career MJ's failings, at least team-wise, then its fair to point out the failures of other all-time greats when they were in their prime, and lost when they shouldn't have or got swept when they were actually on competitive teams. MJ in his prime, when favored to win, did so. 6 times. If the worst you can say about MJ is that he failed to lead a scrub Bulls team over the mid 80's Celtics............. OK.

I see what you're saying.

The thing is, those other all-time greats DO get endlessly hammered about losing. So it should be no different for Jordan, and it isn't any different.
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Old 01-04-2016, 02:52 PM   #28
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Default Re: Digging deeper into MJ's 1-9 without Pippen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by La Frescobaldi
I see what you're saying.

The thing is, those other all-time greats DO get endlessly hammered about losing. So it should be no different for Jordan, and it isn't any different.

Not to the same degree, at least on here. How many times do you see people talking about Shaq's multiple sweeps, or Duncan and Bird losing with HCA, etc? Not all that much, at least not daily threads about it. The only guy who receives a lot of heat in that regard and comparable to MJ is Lebron, either regarding the 2011 finals or his 2-6 finals record. And usually, that's either an MJ or Kobe fan using that against him, the same way Lebron and Kobe fans will use MJ's '1-9' against him, or Kobe getting criticized for '6-24'. Basically, the whole '1-9', '2/6', '2011 finals' '57 wins in 93 versus 55 in 94' and similar nitpicking BS is from certain MJ, Lebron, and Kobe fans pissing at each other in the wind.

I mean hell, Pippen was a 7ppg benchwarmer in 1988, yet that seems to be overlooked when discussing MJ's record without him. How much credit does he get for what the Bulls did in 88? And really, was he anything more than a decent player prior to 1990? Pippen didn't become 'the' Pippen we know until 91.

Last edited by Dragonyeuw : 01-04-2016 at 02:57 PM.
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Old 01-04-2016, 03:26 PM   #29
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Default Re: Digging deeper into MJ's 1-9 without Pippen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragonyeuw
Not to the same degree, at least on here. How many times do you see people talking about Shaq's multiple sweeps, or Duncan and Bird losing with HCA, etc? Not all that much, at least not daily threads about it. The only guy who receives a lot of heat in that regard and comparable to MJ is Lebron, either regarding the 2011 finals or his 2-6 finals record. And usually, that's either an MJ or Kobe fan using that against him, the same way Lebron and Kobe fans will use MJ's '1-9' against him, or Kobe getting criticized for '6-24'. Basically, the whole '1-9', '2/6', '2011 finals' '57 wins in 93 versus 55 in 94' and similar nitpicking BS is from certain MJ, Lebron, and Kobe fans pissing at each other in the wind.

I mean hell, Pippen was a 7ppg benchwarmer in 1988, yet that seems to be overlooked when discussing MJ's record without him. How much credit does he get for what the Bulls did in 88? And really, was he anything more than a decent player prior to 1990? Pippen didn't become 'the' Pippen we know until 91.

Excellent.

Here's the deal...as LaFrescobaldi said...

KAJ has been criticized, Shaq, Lebron, Wilt, and other's (albeit, Hakeem, and Bird almost never receive any.)

Let's use KAJ as an example. His '77 Lakers had HCA against Walton's Blazers. Unfortunately for KAJ, he didn't have a PF, and one of his starting guards missed the first two games.

Well, KAJ just carpet-bombed Walton in that series, but his TEAM was swept. Why should he get blamed?

How about Wilt's '66 Sixers? Had a slightly better record than Boston in the regular season (albeit, nowhere near the same talent level.)

Chamberlain murdered Russell in that series, including a 46-34 clinching game...in a defeat.) For the series, Wilt averaged 28 ppg, 30 rpg, and shot .509 (incidently, his regular season numbers against Russell were 28-30 .473.) BUT, his teammates were crushed by Russell's (as was almost always the case), and shot a combined .352 from the field for the series.

Yet we see these ridiculous 2/6 or 11/2 comments all the time.

As for MJ...his '95 Bulls didn't have HCA, but let's get real here. Jordan basically replaced Horace Grant, from a roster that went a deceptive 55-27 the year before (deceptive because Pippen and Grant missed a combined 22 games...and they still went 55-27.) Furthermore, when MJ rejoined that team, they went 13-4. And yet, they were dispatched in the second round by a team that would get swept by the 47-35 Rockets in the Finals.

Don't get me wrong...MJ played well. But this "6/6" is nonsense, as well. His '90 and particularly his '95 teams were capable of winning, and didn't.

Wilt gets bashed here all the time...despite the fact that he was taking last place rosters to within an eyelash of beating heavily-favored Celtics teams...and in series in which he annihilated Russell. Yet...the "2/6" and "11/2" nonsense permeates this forum.

If a player plays poorly, al la Kobe in '04 and '08, he deserves to be ripped. But if a guy plays great, like Shaq in '04, well, it's ridiculous.
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Old 01-04-2016, 03:29 PM   #30
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