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Old 01-04-2016, 09:11 AM   #1
ClipperRevival
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Default Digging deeper into MJ's 1-9 without Pippen.

MJ had 3 seasons in the league before Pippen came on board in 1987-88. This is where the 1-9 comes from.

1984-85 Bulls (38-44). Faced (59-23) Bucks and lost (1-3)
1985-86 Bulls (30-52). Faced (67-15) Celtics and lost (0-3)
1986-87 Bulls (40-42). Faced (59-23) Celtics and lost (0-3)


MJ's numbers during these 10 playoff games:

35.5 PPG, 27.4 PER 6.3 RPG, 6.9 APG, 2.4 SPG, 1.5 BPG


If anyone degrades MJ for losing to these great/all-time great teams in his rookie year, 2nd year and 3rd year, you are on something good. So in the end, 1-9 means very little when you consider context. If MJ had been 1-9 when he was winning rings and had stronger teams, that might carry some weight. But that wasn't the case.
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Old 01-04-2016, 09:13 AM   #2
SyRyanYang
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Default Re: Digging deeper into MJ's 1-9 without Pippen.

What Lebron stans wouldn't tell y'all is that Jordan played in a very strong Eastern conference the first few years while Lebron was having it easy in a weak East.
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Old 01-04-2016, 09:23 AM   #3
ShawkFactory
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Default Re: Digging deeper into MJ's 1-9 without Pippen.

This deeper digging doesn't need to happen..
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Old 01-04-2016, 09:33 AM   #4
Dragonyeuw
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Default Re: Digging deeper into MJ's 1-9 without Pippen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ClipperRevival
So in the end, 1-9 means very little when you consider context.

Context is missing in most of the debates around here, just a series of one-liners thrown around between rabid fanbases

'81'
'6-24'
'2011 finals'
'1-9'

etc etc....most of the people who overuse those terms aren't really interested in a real debate, just ******ging whoever they're arguing for while disrespecting the player being argued against.
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Old 01-04-2016, 09:43 AM   #5
ClipperRevival
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Default Re: Digging deeper into MJ's 1-9 without Pippen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragonyeuw
Context is missing in most of the debates around here, just a series of one-liners thrown around between rabid fanbases

'81'
'6-24'
'2011 finals'
'1-9'

etc etc....most of the people who overuse those terms aren't really interested in a real debate, just ******ging whoever they're arguing for while disrespecting the player being argued against.

So true.
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Old 01-04-2016, 09:51 AM   #6
Mr Feeny
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Default Re: Digging deeper into MJ's 1-9 without Pippen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ClipperRevival
MJ had 3 seasons in the league before Pippen came on board in 1987-88. This is where the 1-9 comes from.

1984-85 Bulls (38-44). Faced (59-23) Bucks and lost (1-3)
1985-86 Bulls (30-52). Faced (67-15) Celtics and lost (0-3)
1986-87 Bulls (40-42). Faced (59-23) Celtics and lost (0-3)


MJ's numbers during these 10 playoff games:

35.5 PPG, 27.4 PER 6.3 RPG, 6.9 APG, 2.4 SPG, 1.5 BPG


If anyone degrades MJ for losing to these great/all-time great teams in his rookie year, 2nd year and 3rd year, you are on something good. So in the end, 1-9 means very little when you consider context. If MJ had been 1-9 when he was winning rings and had stronger teams, that might carry some weight. But that wasn't the case.

I was having this discussion with a young basketball fan the other night. Apparently "1-9" exists not only on ISH but in real life with some of these kids.

Whenever I see some of the younger Lebron stans (ariztotle etc) mention 1-9, I wonder if I should bother wasting my time mentioning that Lebron missed the playoffs entirely his first 2 years.
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Old 01-04-2016, 10:00 AM   #7
Blue&Orange
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Default Re: Digging deeper into MJ's 1-9 without Pippen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawkFactory
This deeper digging doesn't need to happen..
exactly. i'm loling that someone had to dig deeper into the 1-9 bullshit.
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Old 01-04-2016, 10:45 AM   #8
ArbitraryWater
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Default Re: Digging deeper into MJ's 1-9 without Pippen.

Amazing in depth stuff.. you dug deep there
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Old 01-04-2016, 10:54 AM   #9
Dragonyeuw
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Default Re: Digging deeper into MJ's 1-9 without Pippen.

The reality is, MJ won when he was supposed to( having HCA, better team) and lost when expected( when he was a one man team, inexperience). He never lost when he had HCA, in other words not allowing either himself and/or his team to under-perform to the level of expectation, nor was he swept out of the playoffs in situations when he had enough help to at least make a series out of it. How many others in the top 10 can you realistically say that about?
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Old 01-04-2016, 10:54 AM   #10
tmacattack33
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Default Re: Digging deeper into MJ's 1-9 without Pippen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ClipperRevival
MJ had 3 seasons in the league before Pippen came on board in 1987-88. This is where the 1-9 comes from.

1984-85 Bulls (38-44). Faced (59-23) Bucks and lost (1-3)
1985-86 Bulls (30-52). Faced (67-15) Celtics and lost (0-3)
1986-87 Bulls (40-42). Faced (59-23) Celtics and lost (0-3)


MJ's numbers during these 10 playoff games:

35.5 PPG, 27.4 PER 6.3 RPG, 6.9 APG, 2.4 SPG, 1.5 BPG


If anyone degrades MJ for losing to these great/all-time great teams in his rookie year, 2nd year and 3rd year, you are on something good. So in the end, 1-9 means very little when you consider context. If MJ had been 1-9 when he was winning rings and had stronger teams, that might carry some weight. But that wasn't the case.

That's exactly the point.

When people say T-mac never got out of the first round or Lebron is 2-6, they don't use context.

So, why would we use context when talking about MJ's 1-9?

Anyway, it's more of a joke. Like 2-6. At least I think it is.
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Old 01-04-2016, 01:11 PM   #11
La Frescobaldi
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Default Re: Digging deeper into MJ's 1-9 without Pippen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragonyeuw
The reality is, MJ won when he was supposed to( having HCA, better team) and lost when expected( when he was a one man team, inexperience). He never lost when he had HCA, in other words not allowing either himself and/or his team to under-perform to the level of expectation, nor was he swept out of the playoffs in situations when he had enough help to at least make a series out of it. How many others in the top 10 can you realistically say that about?

Chamberlain took a dismal last place Warriors to the Conference Finals as a rookie and did that over and over..

Jabbar took a dismal last place Bucks to the Conference Finals as a rookie and did that over and over.

S. O'Neal improved a last place Orlando to middle of the pack in a rookie season and proceeded to run off a string of playoff showings.

Moses Malone took a last place Rox to the Conference Finals his first year in the NBA.

Larry Bird took a last place Celtics to the Conference Finals his rookie year.

Magic Johnson took a mid-playoff level Lakers to the championship as a rookie, playing all 5 positions in the last game of the season.

lots and lots of guys did it and right off the bat too; Jordan did not.
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Old 01-04-2016, 01:22 PM   #12
kuniva_dAMiGhTy
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Default Re: Digging deeper into MJ's 1-9 without Pippen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tmacattack33
That's exactly the point.

When people say T-mac never got out of the first round or Lebron is 2-6, they don't use context.

So, why would we use context when talking about MJ's 1-9?

Anyway, it's more of a joke. Like 2-6. At least I think it is.

The difference being, LeBron had more than enough help on teams that were considered championship or bust. TMac had an atrocious supporting cast in Orlando, but like LeBron, he had tons of help in Houston. Not getting out of the first round despite that is a HUGE black mark on his legacy.

Before he got decent help, Jordan's Bulls were a joke. From 1985-1988 the guy was a one man wrecking ball.
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Old 01-04-2016, 01:25 PM   #13
Bankaii
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Default Re: Digging deeper into MJ's 1-9 without Pippen.

I know it's a crazy thought, but what if MJ had a great enough impact to lead his team to a better record

Seriously his team's record those first 2 years are horrible. Lol at his conference being so tough yet he's making the playoffs with less than 40 wins.

It's funny how MJ's 3peat teammates are degraded to prop him up with the agenda that he did it all by himself. Why wasn't that the case when he was getting SWEPT in the playoffs.
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Old 01-04-2016, 01:37 PM   #14
Dragonyeuw
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Default Re: Digging deeper into MJ's 1-9 without Pippen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by La Frescobaldi
Chamberlain took a dismal last place Warriors to the Conference Finals as a rookie and did that over and over..

Jabbar took a dismal last place Bucks to the Conference Finals as a rookie and did that over and over.

S. O'Neal improved a last place Orlando to middle of the pack in a rookie season and proceeded to run off a string of playoff showings.
Moses Malone took a last place Rox to the Conference Finals his first year in the NBA.

Larry Bird took a last place Celtics to the Conference Finals his rookie year.

Magic Johnson took a mid-playoff level Lakers to the championship as a rookie, playing all 5 positions in the last game of the season.

lots and lots of guys did it and right off the bat too; Jordan did not.

What about my post is talking about rookie Jordan? I said MJ won when he was expected to, and lost when he was supposed to. Shaq was swept out of the playoffs during his prime, Duncan has lost with HCA in his prime, Bird has lost with HCA, Kobe has blown 3-1 leads, Lebron massively underperformed in 2011 with HCA and favored to win. Magic was called Tragic in 84 for a reason... that's what I'm referring to. But I'll repeat, in case it's not clear and you go on another tangent about something I wan't talking about:

When MJ was favored to win, having the better team and HCA, he won. When MJ wasn't favored to do anything, playing against a team like mid 80's Celtics with scrubs on his side, he lost. Yes, some of those guys had more immediate impact as rookies in terms of the w/l columns, but that wasn't my argument.

Last edited by Dragonyeuw : 01-04-2016 at 01:41 PM.
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Old 01-04-2016, 01:47 PM   #15
La Frescobaldi
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Default Re: Digging deeper into MJ's 1-9 without Pippen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragonyeuw
What about my post is talking about rookie Jordan? I said MJ won when he was expected to, and lost when he was supposed to. Shaq was swept out of the playoffs during his prime, Duncan has lost with HCA in his prime, Bird has lost with HCA, Kobe has blown 3-1 leads, Lebron massively underperformed in 2011 with HCA and favored to win. Magic was called Tragic in 84 for a reason... that's what I'm referring to. But I'll repeat, in case it's not clear and you go on another tangent about something I wan't talking about:

When MJ was favored to win, having the better team and HCA, he won. When MJ wasn't favored to do anything, playing against a team like mid 80's Celtics with scrubs on his side, he lost. Yes, some of those guys had more immediate impact as rookies in terms of the w/l columns, but that wasn't my argument.

The point is those other guys went to playoffs consistently, and won playoffs constistently, even with poor supporting casts. Not only did they do it, they even did it right off from their rookie years. All of em did it, Jordan never did it.
Sure Shaq not only got swept like Jordan, he got swept 6 times. But his teams weren't even getting to playoffs without him in several cases.

There's a pretty powerful argument out there that Jordan never did improve his teams. I can even see their point, tbh.
Best guard of all time without question, but expanding his teammates, elevating them to greater play than they were able to do......... not much comparison with most of those guys, or all of them even.
Funny thing about Chamberlain he gets gashed for supposedly not helping his teammates yet if you study their stats they almost invariably had their best seasons with Wilt. Same with those other guys too. Magic was insanely great at building up his teammates.
Bird and Jabbar have the biggest single season team turnarounds in history. Jordan didn't make a difference for years on end in the win column. It's another constant theme that when he retired the Bulls only went down like 2 or 3 games.

Last edited by La Frescobaldi : 01-04-2016 at 01:49 PM.
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