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Old 08-19-2012, 04:42 AM   #31
jlauber
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Default Re: A Prime Shaq vs. Hakeem

Quote:
Originally Posted by millwad
Wow, you're such a retard..

You're the one who mentions it in a try to discredit Olajuwon so you're the one who's supposed to prove that Olajuwon was actually guarding him.

And yeah, lets brag about Wilt who shrunk in the playoffs and only won two rings (one when Russell wasn't even around) and the other as a tied 2nd option on offense..

First of all, and remember this...it was YOU who brought WILT into this thread.

I tell you what Dickwad...POST Hakeem's ENTIRE "must-win" and "series-clinching" post-season games, and get back to me. AND, also post his OPPOSING center's numbers, as well. I'll post Wilt's right now...

Quote:
Ok, here are the known numbers in Wilt's "must-win" playoff games (elimination games), and clinching game performances (either deciding winning or losing games), of BOTH Chamberlain, and his starting opposing centers in those games.

1. Game three of a best-of-three series in the first round of the 59-60 playoffs against Syracuse, a 132-112 win. Wilt with 53 points, on 24-42 shooting, with 22 rebounds. His opposing center, Red Kerr, who was a multiple all-star in his career, had 7 points.

2. Game five of the 59-60 ECF's against Boston, a 128-107 win. Chamberlain had 50 points, on 22-42 shooting, with 35 rebounds. His opposing center, Russell, had 22 points and 27 rebounds.

3. Game six of the 59-60 ECF's against Boston, in a 119-117 loss. Wilt had a 26-24 game, while Russell had a 25-25 game.

4. Game three of a best-of-five series in the first round of the 60-61 playoffs , and against Syracuse, in a 106-103 loss. Chamberlain with 33 points, while his opposing center, the 7-3 Swede Halbrook, scored 6 points.

5. Game five of a best-of-five series in the first round of the 61-62 playoffs, against Syracuse, in a 121-104 win. Chamberlain had 56 points, on 22-48 shooting, with 35 rebounds. Kerr had 20 points in the loss.

6. Game six of the 61-62 ECF's, and against Boston, in a 109-99 win. Wilt with 32 points and 21 rebounds. Russell had 19 points and 22 rebounds in the loss.

7. Game seven of the 61-62 ECF's, against Boston, in a 109-107 loss. Wilt with 22 points, on 7-15 shooting, with 21 rebounds. Russell had 19 points, on 7-14 shooting, with 22 rebounds in the win.

8. Game seven of the 63-64 WCF's, and against St. Louis, in a 105-95 win. Wilt with 39 points, 26 rebounds, and 10 blocks. His opposing center, Zelmo Beaty, who would go on to become a multiple all-star, had 10 points in the loss.

9. Game five of the 63-64 Finals, and against Boston, in a 105-99 loss. Chamberlain with 30 points and 27 rebounds. Russell had 14 points and 26 points in the win.

10. Game four of a best-of-five series in the 64-65 first round of the playoffs against Cincinnati, a 119-112 win. Chamberlain with 38 points. His opposing center, multiple all-star (and HOFer) Wayne Embry had 7 points in the loss.

11. Game six of the 64-65 ECF's, against Boston, a 112-106 win. Chamberlain with a 30-26 game. Russell with a 22-21 game in the loss.

12. Game seven of the 64-65 ECF's, and against Boston, a 110-109 loss. Wilt with 30 points, on 12-15 shooting, with 32 rebounds. Russell had 15 points, on 7-16 shooting, with 29 rebounds in the win.

13. Game five of a best-of-seven series, in the 65-66 ECF's, and against Boston, in a 120-112 loss. Wilt had 46 points, on 19-34 shooting, with 34 rebounds. Russell had 18 points and 31 rebounds in the win.

14. Game four of a best-of-five series, in the first round of the 66-67 playoffs, and against Cincinnati, a 112-94 win. Wilt with 18 points, on 7-14 shooting, with 27 rebounds and 9 assists. His opposing center, Connie Dierking, had 8 points, on 4-14 shooting, with 4 rebounds in the loss.

15. Game five of the 66-67 ECF's, and against Boston, in a 140-116 win. Chamberlain with 29 points, on 10-16 shooting, with 36 rebounds, 13 assists, and 7 blocks. Russell had 4 points, on 2-5 shooting, with 21 rebounds, and 7 assists in the loss.

16. Game six of the 66-67 Finals, and against San Francisco, in a 125-122 win. Chamberlain with 24 points, on 8-13 shooting, with 23 rebounds. His oppsoing center, HOFer Nate Thurmond, had 12 points, on 4-13 shooting, with 22 rebounds in the loss.

17. Game six of the first round of the 67-68 playoffs, against NY, in a 113-97 win. Wilt had 25 points, and 27 rebounds. His opposing center, HOFer Walt Bellamy, had 19 points in the loss.

18. Game seven of the 67-68 ECF's, against Boston, in a 100-96 loss. Wilt with 14 points, on 4-9 shooting, with 34 rebounds. Russell had 12 points and 26 rebounds in the win.

19. Game six of the first round of the 68-69 playoffs, against San Francisco, in a 118-78 win. Wilt with 11 points on 5/9 FG, 25 rebounds and 1 assist. Thurmond had 8 points in the loss.

20. Game four of the 68-69 WCF's, against Atlanta, in a 133-114 sweeping win. Chamberlain with 16 points on 5/11 FG, 29 rebounds and 10 blocks. His opposing center, Zelmo Beaty had 30 points in the loss.

21. Game seven of the 68-69 Finals, against Boston, in a 108-106 loss. Chamberlain had 18 points, on 7-8 shooting, with 27 rebounds. Russell had 6 points, on 2-7 shooting, with 21 rebounds in the win.

22. Game five of a best-of-seven series (the Lakers were down 3-1 going into the game) in the first round of the 69-70 playoffs, and against Phoenix, a 138-121 win. Wilt with 36 points on 12/20 FG 14 rebounds and 3 assists. His opposing center, Neal Walk, had 18 points in the loss.

23. Game six of the first round of the 69-70 playoffs, against Phoenix, in a 104-93 win. Wilt with 12 points on 4/11 FG, 26 rebounds, 11 assists and 12 blocks (unofficial quad). Jim Fox started that game for Phoenix, and had 13 points in the loss.

24. Game seven of the first round of the 69-70 playoffs, against Phoenix, and in a 129-94 win, which capped a 4-3 series win after falling behind 3-1 in the series. Wilt with 30 points on 11/18 FG, 27 rebounds, 6 assists and 11 blocks. Fox had 7 points in the loss.

25. Game four of the 69-70 WCF's, against Atlanta, in a 133-114 sweeping win. Wilt with 11 points on 5/10 FG, 21 rebounds and 10 blocks. Bellamy had 19 points in the loss.

26. Game six of the 69-70 Finals, against NY, in a 135-113 win. Wilt with 45 points, on 20-27 shooting, with 27 rebounds. Nate Bowman had 18 points, on 9-15 shooting, with 8 rebounds in the loss.

27. Game seven of the 69-70 Finals, against NY, in a 113-99 loss. Wilt with 21 points, on 10-16 shooting, with 24 rebounds. HOFer Willis Reed had 4 points, on 2-5 shooting, with 3 rebounds in the win.

28. Game seven of the first round of the 70-71 playoffs, against Chicago, in a 109-98 win. Wilt with 25 points on 7/12 FG,18 rebounds and 9 assists. 7-0 Tom Boerwinkle had 4 points for the Bulls in the loss.

29. Game five of the 70-71 WCF's, against Milwaukee, in a 116-94 loss. Wilt had 23 points, on 10-21 shooting, with 12 rebounds, 6 blocks (5 of them on Alcindor/Kareem.) Kareem had 20 points, on 7-23 shooting, with 15 rebounds, and 3 blocks in the win. Incidently, Wilt received a standing ovation when he left the game late...and the game was played in Milwaukee.

30. Game four of the 71-72 first round of the playoffs, against Chicago, in a 108-97 sweeping win. Wilt had 8 points on 4/6, 31 rebounds and 8 assists. Clifford Ray had 20 points in the loss.

31. Game six of the 71-72 WCF's, against Milwaukee, in a 104-100 win. Chamberlain with 20 points, on 8-12 shooting, with 24 rebounds, and 9 blocks (six against Kareem.) Kareem had 37 points, on 16-37 shooting, with 25 rebounds in the loss.

32. Game five of the 71-72 Finals, against NY, in a 114-100 win. Chamberlain with 24 points, on 10-14 shooting, with 29 rebounds, and 9 blocks. HOFer Jerry Lucas had 14 points, on 5-14 shooting, with 9 rebounds in the loss.

33. Game seven of the first round of the 72-73 playoffs, against Chicago, in a 95-92 win. Wilt with 21 points on 10/17 FG, 28 rebounds, 4 asissts and 8 blocks. His opposing center, Clifford Ray, had 4 points.

The article about this series sad that Wilt blocked Chicago from playoffs after blocking 49 shots in 7 games.

34. Game five of the 72-73 WCF's, and against Golden St., in a 128-118 win. Wilt with 5 points on 2/2 FG, 22 rebounds, 7 assists. Thurmond had 9 points on 2/9 FG, 18 or 15 rebounds and 5 assists in 32 minutes in the loss.

35. Game five of the 72-73 Finals, against NY, in a 102-93 loss. Wilt with 23 points, on 9-16 shooting, with 21 rebounds. Willis Reed had 18 points, on 9-16 shooting, with 12 rebounds.

That was it. 35 "must-win" elimination and/or clinching post-season games.


Continued...
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Old 08-19-2012, 04:43 AM   #32
millwad
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Default Re: A Prime Shaq vs. Hakeem

Quote:
Originally Posted by jlauber
I don't need to "find" anyone. Shaq's TEAMMATES blew that series. Plain-and-simple.

They were BADKY outplayed and yet YOU have ALWAYS claimed that Hakeem had NO help in his Finals.

He had WAY more help than Shaq in THAT series, my friend.

Shaq's biggest mistake was passing the ball at all.

Haha, now you're just getting beyond pathetic.

I'm not talking about his teammates, in that case I can spam all I want about how much help Wilt had when he won, and he did have crazy much more help than Olajuwon.

Hakeem Olajuwon outplayed Shaq in the '95 playoffs, plain and simple. You're the ONLY one who claims that he didn't, even Shaq himself is the first one to tell you. Teammates aside, OLAJUWON OUTPLAYED SHAQ.
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Old 08-19-2012, 04:45 AM   #33
jlauber
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Default Re: A Prime Shaq vs. Hakeem

And this...

Quote:
The idiotic Bill Simmons claims that Wilt "shrunk" in the post-season, particularly in BIG games.

Had he actually done any real research into Wilt's post-season career, he would have found that Wilt averaged 27.0 ppg in his 35 "must-win" and/or clinching games. Meanwhile, his starting opposing centers averaged 14.5 ppg in those 35 games. He also outscored his opposing starting center in 29 of those 35 games, including a 19-0 edge in his first 19 games of those 35. Furthermore, in his 13 games which came in his "scoring" seasons (from 59-60 thru 65-66), Chamberlain averaged 37.3 ppg in those "do-or-die" or clinching games. And there were MANY games in which he just CRUSHED his opposing centers in those games (e.g. he outscored Kerr in one them, 53-7.)

Wilt had THREE of his four 50+ point post-season games, in these "elimination games", including two in "at the limit" games, and another against Russell in a "must-win" game. He also had games of 46-34 and 45-27 (and only 4 months removed from major knee surgery) in these types of games. In addition he had games of 39 and 38 in clinching wins.

In the known 19 games in which we have both Wilt's, and his starting opposing center's rebounding numbers, Chamberlain outrebounded them in 15 of them, and by an average margin of 26.1 rpg to 18.9 rpg. And, had we had all 35 of the totals, it would have been by a considerably larger margin. A conservative estimate would put Wilt with at least a 30-5 overall edge in those 35 games. He also had games, even against the likes of Russell, and in "must-win" situations, where he just MURDERED his opposing centers (e.g. he had one clinching game, against Russell, in which he outrebounded him by a 36-21 margin.)

And finally, in the known FG% games in which we have, Chamberlain not only shot an eye-popping .582 in those "do-or-die" games, but he held his opposing centers to a combined .413 FG%. BTW, he played against Kareem in two "clinching" games, and held Abdul-Jabbar to a combined .383 shooting in those two games, while shooting .545 himself (18-33.)

The bottom line, in the known games of the 35 that Wilt played in that involved a "must-win" or clincher, Wilt averaged 27 ppg, 26.1 rpg, and shot .582 (and the 27 ppg figure was known for all 35 of those games.)

And once again, Chamberlain played in 11 games which went to the series limit (nine game seven's, one game five of a best-of-five series, and one game three of a best-of-three series), and all he did was average 29.9 ppg (outscoring his opposing center by a 29.9 ppg to 9.8 ppg margin in the process), with 26.7 rpg, and on .581 shooting. Or he was an eye-lash away from averaging a 30-27 game, and on nearly .600 shooting, in those 11 "at the limit" games.


Oh, and BTW, Chamberlain's TEAMs went 24-11 in those 35 games, too.

That was the same player that Simmons basically labeled a "loser", and a "choker", and who "shrunk" in his BIG games.
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Old 08-19-2012, 04:46 AM   #34
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Default Re: A Prime Shaq vs. Hakeem

Quote:
Originally Posted by jlauber
First of all, and remember this...it was YOU who brought WILT into this thread.

I tell you what Dickwad...POST Hakeem's ENTIRE "must-win" and "series-clinching" post-season games, and get back to me. AND, also post his OPPOSING center's numbers, as well. I'll post Wilt's right now...



Continued...

Haha, so obvious..

You've posted those stats a thousand of times and it's cherry picked like everything else you do.

In his prime ('93-'95), he faced elimination 10 times and his record was 9-1 in those games and the one game he lost was in '93 in a highly controversial game.

This is what Hakeem did in those games;

31/21/7/3/3
23/17/9/3/2
37/17/5/3
25/10/7/3
40/8/3
33/10/4
31/16/3
30/8/10/5
29/11/4

Now go and find Wilt's failures from the FT-line where his horrible FT-shooting cost him a ring..
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Old 08-19-2012, 04:47 AM   #35
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Default Re: A Prime Shaq vs. Hakeem

Quote:
Originally Posted by jlauber
And this...

2 rings as a fourth option on offense and tied 2nd option..

In a league with way less talent and way less teams..
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Old 08-19-2012, 04:49 AM   #36
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Default Re: A Prime Shaq vs. Hakeem

Quote:
Originally Posted by millwad
Haha, now you're just getting beyond pathetic.

I'm not talking about his teammates, in that case I can spam all I want about how much help Wilt had when he won, and he did have crazy much more help than Olajuwon.

Hakeem Olajuwon outplayed Shaq in the '95 playoffs, plain and simple. You're the ONLY one who claims that he didn't, even Shaq himself is the first one to tell you. Teammates aside, OLAJUWON OUTPLAYED SHAQ.

List the HOFers that each Hakeem title team went thru. Hell, Hakeem had more HOFers on his roster than his oppostion in his '95 post-season run.

Meanwhile, in Wilt's two title runs, he faced teams that had as many as FIVE and SIX HOFers on them.

Chamberlain also faced a starting HOF center in 105 of his 160 post-season games, and yet, he was only eliminated in the first round in ONE series (and he just CRUSHED his opposing center in that series BTW.) He battled a PRIME Kareem in 11 games, Thurmond in 17, Reed in 18, and Russell in 49.

Meanwhile, Hakeem battled a starting HOF center in 35 of his 145 playoff games, including a 39 year old Kareem in six. And, he took his team down in flames in EIGHT first round series.
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Old 08-19-2012, 04:49 AM   #37
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Default Re: A Prime Shaq vs. Hakeem

Quote:
Originally Posted by jlauber
First of all, and remember this...it was YOU who brought WILT into this thread.

I tell you what Dickwad...POST Hakeem's ENTIRE "must-win" and "series-clinching" post-season games, and get back to me. AND, also post his OPPOSING center's numbers, as well. I'll post Wilt's right now...



Continued...

Ahh dude...don't fall for the blatant change of topic. The point you were making still stands; whenever Hakeem guarded Kareem, Kareem burned him. Hakeem destroyed the Laker frontcourt in '86, but he didn't have to guard Kareem one-on-one in that series.

Millwad is right that Hakeem wasn't close to his defensive prime, but that doesn't make Kareem's outscoring of Hakeem at a better efficiency any less blatant.

I haven't watched the games, but I'm tempted (only tempted) to think that Kareem got a ton of baskets on the break, and was helped in guarding Olajuwon on defense (because that would make sense). The fact that Hakeem destroyed Kareem on the boards in the matchups points to the fact that Kareem wasn't exactly posting up Hakeem every possession.




But this thread has absolutely NOTHING to do with Wilt. If anything, I got a little off topic talking about Hakeem vs. Kareem, when this is about Shaq vs. Hakeem.
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Old 08-19-2012, 04:55 AM   #38
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Default Re: A Prime Shaq vs. Hakeem

Quote:
Originally Posted by Djahjaga
Ahh dude...don't fall for the blatant change of topic. The point you were making still stands; whenever Hakeem guarded Kareem, Kareem burned him. Hakeem destroyed the Laker frontcourt in '86, but he didn't have to guard Kareem one-on-one in that series.

Millwad is right that Hakeem wasn't close to his defensive prime, but that doesn't make Kareem's outscoring of Hakeem at a better efficiency any less blatant.

I haven't watched the games, but I'm tempted (only tempted) to think that Kareem got a ton of baskets on the break, and was helped in guarding Olajuwon on defense (because that would make sense). The fact that Hakeem destroyed Kareem on the boards in the matchups points to the fact that Kareem wasn't exactly posting up Hakeem every possession.




But this thread has absolutely NOTHING to do with Wilt. If anything, I got a little off topic talking about Hakeem vs. Kareem, when this is about Shaq vs. Hakeem.

He's always waiting for someone to mention Wilt just so he can spam essays about him.

Kareem sure thing got the best of Olajuwon as a rookie and 2nd year pro in the regular season, but Olajuwon absolutely destroyed the Laker big men in the playoffs in '86. Jlauber never mentions it because it doesn't fit his agenda.

He's basically judging Hakeem's defense based on meaningless regular season games against Kareem, Gilmore (in which he doesn't know if Olajuwon guarded Gilmore) and Hakeem's defense as a 36 year old against prime Shaq..
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Old 08-19-2012, 05:03 AM   #39
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Default Re: A Prime Shaq vs. Hakeem

Quote:
Originally Posted by millwad
2 rings as a fourth option on offense and tied 2nd option..

In a league with way less talent and way less teams..

Tell you what...

Let's compare Hakeem's "first option" performances in his THREE Finals, to Wilt's "2nd and 4th options" in his SIX.

How many series was Wilt outshot in his SIX Finals? One, in his last season, and NOT by his opposing center, either (he outshot EVERY opposing center in EVERY one of his SIX Finals.) In that ONE series, Dick Barnett outshot him by a .531 to .525 margin. Incidently, in Wilt's SIX Finals, he shot .517, .525, .534, .560 (against Thurmond no less, and in Nate's greatest season....the same Nate who held Kareem to .486, .428, and even .405 shooting in their three H2H post-season series), .600, and .625 (on one leg, and in a seven game series.)

How about Hakeem in his THREE Finals? He was NEVER the leading shooter in ANY of them. Hell, he wasn't even the leading shooter on his own team in ANY of them. He was only the FIFTH best shooter in his '86 Finals (and SIXTH if you include Walton and his .621 off the bench), at .479. He had a TEAMMATE who shot .588 (McCray.)

How about '94? He shot a Finals' high, for him, .500, and finished behind his TEAMMATE, Otis Thorpe (and BTW, Thorpe shot .572 in the entire post-season.) Interesting too, that his BEST Finals, is considerably behind Wilt's WORST (and LIGHT YEARS behind his BEST.) And that does not include the LEAGUE AVERAGE post-season FG%, either, in which Chamberlain's WORST was MILES ahead of Hakeem's BEST.

How about that Shaq Finals? Interesting. Shaq not only outshot Hakeem by an unfathomable .595 to .483 margin (you won't find ANY center outshooting Chamberlain in his Finals, much less by over a 100 points!), Hakeem's TEAMMATE, Mario Ellie averaged 16.3 ppg on, get this... .629 shooting.

Now, go ahead and find me ONE of Wilt's SIX Finals, in which he had a TEAMMATE shoot as high as .588 or .629. Or find me one of his SIX Finals, in which he had a center outshoot him by a .595 to .483 margin.

Overall, Chamberlain shot about .560 in his SIX Finals, covering 35 games, while Hakeem shot .488 in his THREE, and covering 17 games.


Now, how about REBOUNDING?

Wilt played in SIX Finals, and absolutely CRUSHED his opposing centers in ALL of them!

Hakeem played in THREE Finals, and was not only outrebounded by his OPPOSING CENTER in TWO of them, he was outrebounded by a TEAMMATE in one, and was only the THIRD best rebounder in one series, and the FOURTH best rebounder in the other.
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Old 08-19-2012, 05:07 AM   #40
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Default Re: A Prime Shaq vs. Hakeem

Quote:
Originally Posted by millwad
He's always waiting for someone to mention Wilt just so he can spam essays about him.

Kareem sure thing got the best of Olajuwon as a rookie and 2nd year pro in the regular season, but Olajuwon absolutely destroyed the Laker big men in the playoffs in '86. Jlauber never mentions it because it doesn't fit his agenda.

He's basically judging Hakeem's defense based on meaningless regular season games against Kareem, Gilmore (in which he doesn't know if Olajuwon guarded Gilmore) and Hakeem's defense as a 36 year old against prime Shaq..


Yeah, yeah, I know he's got essays upon essays on Wilt, but provoking him to spam them and then complaining that he spams them is pretty asinine.

And after the '86 series between them, especially after Sampson got hurt and never really recovered, Kareem still torched Hakeem in the regular season (in scoring and efficiency, never on the boards).

So, he's not just making stuff up. But I do disagree with posts where Kareem/Hakeem matchups are used to somehow argue that Wilt > Hakeem.
If KAJ schooled Hakeem and Wilt schooled KAJ, that doesn't necessarily mean that Wilt would have schooled Hakeem. That's way too much conjecture for my liking.

But it is true that Kareem got the better of Hakeem when Hakeem guarded Kareem.


Now, my question is, did Kareem regularly guard Hakeem in these matchups? We know that in '86, he did, and he was ineffective. But with Sampson injured, he could be hidden on someone else and allow someone else to guard Hakeem. But who? A double team scheme of Cooper and Worthy, maybe?

Anyone who's seen these Rockets-Lakers regular season games, feel free to jump in.
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Old 08-19-2012, 05:09 AM   #41
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Default Re: A Prime Shaq vs. Hakeem

Furthermore, and regarding Wilt's "decline" in the post-season...

Had Wilt had the "good fortune" to have allowed his teammates to drag him down enough to lose EIGHT times in the FIRST ROUND, what would have his scoring numbers looked like?

I'll be glad to help...

Quote:
BTW, I will be posting some new info regarding his "decline" in the post-season, as well. It is amazing, but given the actual scoring and especially shooting percentages in the Wilt-era POST-SEASONS, he was consistently at or near his regular season numbers.

And, had he had the good "fortune" to have been eliminated in the first round of the playoffs, EIGHT times, as was the case with Hakeem, his first round numbers were often HIGHER. And, I have read an idiot post claiming that Hakeem outshot Wilt from the field in the post-season (by a .528 to .522 margin), BUT, I will be comparing their post-season LEAGUE AVERAGES, (and even including eFG%'s), which CLEARLY gives Chamberlain a HUGE edge.

As examples, in Wilt's fist eight post-seasons, and in his first round, he averaged

38.7 ppg

37.0 ppg

37.0 ppg

38.6 ppg and on .559 shooting (in a post-season NBA of 105.8 ppg on .420 shooting)

27.8 ppg (and then 30.1 ppg, on .555 shooting, and against Russell)

28.0 ppg

28.0 ppg (and a great example of FG% at .612 in a post-season at .424)

25.5 ppg (and on .584 shooting, while his opposing center, Bellamy was at 20.0 on .421 shooting.)

Even in his 11th season, and only four months removed from major knee surgery, Chamberlain put up a first round of 23.7 ppg., 20.3 rpg, and .549.

And, in his 71-72 post-season, he had a 14.5 ppg, 20.8 rpg, .629 first round series (and in an NBA post-season of .446.)

So while Chamberlain was shooting .522 in his post-season career, it came in post-seasons of between .402 to .455.) Meanwhile Hakeem's .528 came in post-seasons of as high as .492, and an efg% as high as .500. MANY in the .485+ range, as well.

And, keep in mind two more interesting points. One, in Wilt's second greatest scoring season (44.8 ppg on .528 shooting) his all-time worst roster kept him from playing in the post-season (which probably cost him another 2-3+ ppg in his post-seasob career average.) And two, he faced a starting HOF center in 105 of his 160 post-season games, including Russell in 49, Thurmond in 17, and a PRIME Kareem in 11.

Furthermore, the "declining" Chamberlain had FOUR post-season's of 33.2 ppg, 34.7 ppg, 35.0 ppg, and even 37.0 ppg. He also had FOUR post-season series of 37.0 ppg, 37.0 ppg, 38.6 ppg, and 38.7 ppg. Furthermore, he not only had FOUR 50+ point games in his post-season career, he had THREE of them in "must-win" games (including a 50-35 game against Russell in one of them.)

In fact, in his first six post-seasons, covering 67 games (35 of which were against Russell, and six more against Thurmond), he AVERAGED 30.4 ppg, 27.0 rpg, 4.5 apg, and shot .515 (and probably at least 8 bpg)...COMBINED.

Give me a list of Hakeem's 30-27-5 .500 games in the post-season.
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Old 08-19-2012, 05:32 AM   #42
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Default Re: A Prime Shaq vs. Hakeem

Quote:
Originally Posted by Djahjaga
Yeah, yeah, I know he's got essays upon essays on Wilt, but provoking him to spam them and then complaining that he spams them is pretty asinine.

And after the '86 series between them, especially after Sampson got hurt and never really recovered, Kareem still torched Hakeem in the regular season (in scoring and efficiency, never on the boards).

So, he's not just making stuff up. But I do disagree with posts where Kareem/Hakeem matchups are used to somehow argue that Wilt > Hakeem.
If KAJ schooled Hakeem and Wilt schooled KAJ, that doesn't necessarily mean that Wilt would have schooled Hakeem. That's way too much conjecture for my liking.

But it is true that Kareem got the better of Hakeem when Hakeem guarded Kareem.


Now, my question is, did Kareem regularly guard Hakeem in these matchups? We know that in '86, he did, and he was ineffective. But with Sampson injured, he could be hidden on someone else and allow someone else to guard Hakeem. But who? A double team scheme of Cooper and Worthy, maybe?

Anyone who's seen these Rockets-Lakers regular season games, feel free to jump in.

As for the '86 playoffs the Lakers put all their bigs on Olajuwon and changed alot, no one could really contain Olajuwon so they had Jabbar, Lucas, Kupchak etc. on him.

And no, Jabbar didn't really torch Olajuwon after '86. He had good games but also bad and having Magic raises anyone's FG%. But his longetivity was beyond amazing and I rank Jabbar over Olajuwon of course.

But not only that, he only judges Olajuwon's defense based on him guarding Jabbar as a rookie and 2nd year pro and guarding Shaq as a 36 year old. It takes an idiot to judge a player based on his 2 first years in the league and then when he's 36 years old..
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Old 08-19-2012, 05:34 AM   #43
millwad
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Default Re: A Prime Shaq vs. Hakeem

Quote:
Originally Posted by jlauber

Give me a list of Hakeem's 30-27-5 .500 games in the post-season.

Only a retard would actually ask for something like that.

Wilt played in an era where they played at a much higher pace with players shooting really low FG% which results in crazy many rebounds and considering how guards and forwards were way less athletic back then than the modern era, rebounds was a much easier thing to grab for a guy like Wilt.

By the way, why are you STILL writing about Wilt?
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Old 08-19-2012, 05:35 AM   #44
jlauber
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Default Re: A Prime Shaq vs. Hakeem

Quote:
Originally Posted by millwad
Haha, so obvious..

You've posted those stats a thousand of times and it's cherry picked like everything else you do.

In his prime ('93-'95), he faced elimination 10 times and his record was 9-1 in those games and the one game he lost was in '93 in a highly controversial game.

This is what Hakeem did in those games;

31/21/7/3/3
23/17/9/3/2
37/17/5/3
25/10/7/3
40/8/3
33/10/4
31/16/3
30/8/10/5
29/11/4

Now go and find Wilt's failures from the FT-line where his horrible FT-shooting cost him a ring..



CHERRY PICKED????!!!!

I just gave you EVERY ONE of Wilt's 35 post-season games in which he faced elimination, or was in a series clincher.

I asked you to do the same...and what do you reply with.

A HANDFUL of Hakeem's CAREER post-season games.

Let me "cherry pick" Wilt's TOP-TEN playoff games, ok?

56-35
53-22
50-35
50-17
46-34
45-27
42-37
41-34
39-26
29-36-13-12

BTW, I could post a ton of other's including some higher scoring one's as well.

And furthemore, how about his OPPOSING centers? In that 53 point game, his opposing center had 7 points.

In that 42-37 game, his opposing center (RUSSELL), had 9 points and 20 rebounds.

In his 39 point game, his opposing center had 10 points.

These were BRUTAL massacres.

Hell, he had a playoff game against Russell in which he scored 20 points with 41 rebounds. And another in which he outscored Russell, 27-8, while outrebounding him, 38-19.

And had we had recorded block shots in ALL of his games, I am CERTAIN that he would have had MANY with double digit blocks. Hell, he blocked 33 of Milwaukee's shots in the last four games of the '72 WCF's, and half of them were against Kareem.
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Old 08-19-2012, 05:36 AM   #45
Deuce Bigalow
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Default Re: A Prime Shaq vs. Hakeem

jlauber, just admit that you're mad that Hakeem has as much rings as Wilt.
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