1994 Knicks vs Bulls Game 3. What was Pippen thinking?

[Abraham Lincoln]

He made only one all-D team in his entire career.

And the top defensive PF of his era only has one 1st team all-D selectiion.

[97 bulls]

That's fair enough, but at the end of a game and BENCHING yourself? Ok, that might be a bit harsh, actually. If Kukoc hadn't made the shot, I probably would've sided with Pippen a bit more. Toni made the shot in the end though, which made Scottie look like a total ass. Still a great player, though. That dunk on Ewing during the same game was sick as Hell, I must admit.

lol i honestly would say benching yourself and getting a man fired because you dont see eye to eye are 2 different things. and thats a great point bro. if kukocs misses, i believe everyone sides with pip. well, not everyone

[Alhazred]

LOL he wasn't asked take just 8 shots. Jordan averaged 27 shots a game in the playoffs that year. You watched Jordan's career and saw how many shots he would take, especially in the playoffs. Did you ever see him take 8 shots? Connect the dots.

So what is the right amount he should have taken, then?

I don't know what his other stats were. We don't have game logs for the playoffs. It doesn't matter so Smith did not mention it in his book. The numbers in this case speak for themselves. 28 shots a game in the other playoff games yet only 8 in this one.

Why doesn't it matter? How do we know he wasn't focusing on other aspects of the game such as assists and rebounds instead? Anyway, here's his game six stats. 32pts (13-25), 13 asts, 4rbs, 3stls, 2blks. Yep, he really packed it in that series....

Jordan experienced a microcosm of the series and the entire playoffs within his 42 minutes. With Scottie Pippen forced out of the lineup one minute into the game after getting accidentially elbowed in the head by Detroit center Bill Laimbeer, Jordan carried the Bulls all night long.

"I was confident coming into the game but little things happen that you don't count on-Scottie getting hurt, getting into foul trouble-I guess you just have to be a man and accept them." Jordan said.

Aging, severity of the injury. Krause believed Pippen's body was breaking down by 1997. He proved to be right. You didn't notice a difference between 98' Pippen and 96' Pippen?

Point taken. Still, 19 points a game to 14? Of course, it was probably just a case of him adjusting to a new system as well so I'll drop it.

We are talking about on the court in the heat of battle. Again, these aren't my words. These are coming straight from Phil Jackson and his teammates. They were on the court with him and in the huddle.

I believe you and someone else mentioned how he got into Kukoc's face to take charges against Malone, didn't you?

No, but you seem to not understand there are varying degrees of ability. Was Pippen as good a three point shooter as Reggie Miller? Is your argument that Dr. J was as dominant a defender as Pippen?

What? No, my point was that they were equally able to dominate a game in different ways. You don't think Pippen was as good a player as Bird or Julius, do you? Not that I think Pippen was a bad player, but when I think of guy's with similar abilities, I generally think of Clyde Drexler or prime Grant Hill(pre-2000, of course).

[chitownsfinest]

Yeah I agree that Krause was disrespecting Pippen like no other (refusing to pay him) but who didn't Krause disrespect other then Jordan? Everyone was complaining about something involving him at one point or the other, even Jordan.

Yeah MJ may have tried proving that point as well, but maybe he was trying to prove that him being a ballhog wasn't as bad as it looked and maybe it was best for the team at that point before Pippen and Grant developed to take a lot of shots. He did chose the wrong time to do it though.

[Roundball_Rock]

So what is the right amount he should have taken, then?

Ask Collins. Better yet ask MJ and ask him what he did when his teams were winning. All I know is a dominant scorer--who scored 32 points on 25 shots in the very next game as you mentioned should not be taking 8 shots in a game.

Why doesn't it matter? How do we know he wasn't focusing on other aspects of the game such as assists and rebounds instead? Anyway, here's his game six stats. 32pts (13-25), 13 asts, 4rbs, 3stls, 2blks. Yep, he really packed it in that series....

No one said he packed it in the series. He just quit in Game 5. How do we know? Journalism (Sam Smith). Talking to people who were on the team. Circumstantial evidence backs this up. 28 FGA in the other fifteen playoff games; 8 in that one. How many times did MJ take less than 10 shots in the playoffs? Did he ever do that other than in that game? Why can't you admit MJ made a mistake? No one is saying it didn't happen. You criticize Pippen for one play but not MJ for an entire game with the series tied.

I believe you and someone else mentioned how he got into Kukoc's face to take charges against Malone, didn't you?

That was Jordan I believe. I don't remember him getting in his face, just telling him to do so.

What? No, my point was that they were equally able to dominate a game in different ways. You don't think Pippen was as good a player as Bird or Julius, do you? Not that I think Pippen was a bad player, but when I think of guy's with similar abilities, I generally think of Clyde Drexler or prime Grant Hill(pre-2000, of course).

No but I have never heard of Bird or Erving dominating a NBA finals with their defense. Can any old-timers comment on this? Abe?

Anyway, this is off track. The fact that you had to invoke Bird and Erving to find better SF's in that regard speaks volumes about how good Pippen was.

And the top defensive PF of his era only has one 1st team all-D selectiion.

That is because Pippen had a lock on one of the 1st team spots for forwards for during the same period.

Also before RoundballRock throws a hissy fit at my last post and calls me a Pippen hater, I did not mean that to be anti Pippen at any way.

Pippen hater. I am benching myself in this thread.

[97 bulls]

But Pippen wasn't "disrespected in his whole career up to that point."

His athletic ability was recognized by the league. He even was a Slam Dunk Contest participant. He was a multiple all-atar, a Dream Teamer and a three time champion. I think it was actually Horace Grant who felt overlooked during the first three-peat. And nobody said the the rings were all due to Jordan.

Magic didn't take the hook shot to make a name for himself. He read the defense and reacted.

no, magic broke that play. he had plenty of time to get the ball to kareem. he got sick of being called "tragic johnson" for the mistakes in 84.and pippen was disrespected in the sense that nobody believed he could run a team had jordan not neen there.

[Mister JT]

Yeah, to some degree, Pippen was disrespected by Krause. If I remember right, Kukoc as a rookie had a higher salary than Pippen (and if Jordan didn't retire, probably higher than Jordan's salary too).

I think there was a subplot in the 92 Olympics about Jordan and Pippen going against their future teammate Kukoc. Kukoc was excited to have a chance to play alongside Jordan. But Jordan and Pippen were motivated to go at Kukoc to make a statement to the Bulls' management. My memory is not clear on this though. I might have read some article AFTER the Olympics happened.

[Alhazred]

The Ewing dunk was in Game 6.

My mistake.

He was by Bulls management, especially Krause. Calling the play for Kukoc made it even worse given the Krause-Pippen-Kukoc saga. If he called it for Steve Kerr would he have blown a gasket? Probably not.

Krause did indeed severely underpay Pippen, that we can both agree on. Grant knew what that was like, too. I disagree about Kukoc, though. He made the shot and that's what counts, imo.

Lots of people have claimed he just rode MJ's coattails.

Mostly dumbasses.

[Roundball_Rock]

I am not saying calling the shot for Kukoc was a mistake. It was the correct thing to do on basketball grounds, as chi explained. Pippen did struggle at the end of games in that series, facing double and even triple teams at times. No one expected a rookie who averaged 8/3 in that series to get the shot so Kukoc was a good choice based on the element of surprise and him being clutch at other times that year. What I said is Pippen's reaction was exacerbated by the shot being called for Kukoc of all people (especially since Kukoc screwed up the previous play designed for Pippen). Would he have done the same thing if it were called for Armstrong or Kerr? I doubt it but this is speculation. It was called for Kukoc and Pippen reacted shamefully.

I think there was a subplot in the 92 Olympics about Jordan and Pippen going against their future teammate Kukoc. Kukoc was excited to have a chance to play alongside Jordan. But Jordan and Pippen were motivated to go at Kukoc to make a statement to the Bulls' management. My memory is not clear on this though. I might have read some article AFTER the Olympics happened.

Yeah--they shut Kukoc down by playing lockdown D as if it were Game 7 of the NBA finals. This was when Kukoc was supposed to be the best player in Europe.

[dallaslonghorn]

I would have done the same thing. Pippen finally had the chance to be the man, and he was doing a great job, and Phil totally pulled the rug from underneath him. Would he have done the same thing to MJ? Very disrespectful given Pippen's history in Chicago. And I wouldn't have stopped w/not playing either, I would have told the GM either me or the coach has to go.

[chitownsfinest]

The reason it went to Kukoc was because NY was a really big team and would use their size to front you. That is why it would go to someone like Kukoc who was near 6-10 and can catch the ball over someone like Anthony Mason or Charles Smith. Armstrong was a really clutch player and did end up hitting a potential game winner in that series (the Hue Holins game) but the nest decision was to go to Kukoc at the time. My only problem with Pippen was him being ignorant of the situation and failing to put his bitterness with Kukoc away to realize Toni was the best option for a catch and shoot situation considering his size and range. If it was 5 or so seconds left, the best option would be to give it to Pippen and let him make a play.

I also think Phil should be left out of any blame considering the fact that he often would help the players out and listen to their problems while the Jerry's would blindly ignore them.

[Alhazred]

Ask Collins. Better yet ask MJ and ask him what he did when his teams were winning. All I know is a dominant scorer--who scored 32 points on 25 shots in the very next game as you mentioned should not be taking 8 shots in a game.



No one said he packed it in the series. He just quit in Game 5. How do we know? Journalism (Sam Smith). Talking to people who were on the team. Circumstantial evidence backs this up. 28 FGA in the other fifteen playoff games; 8 in that one. How many times did MJ take less than 10 shots in the playoffs? Did he ever do that other than in that game? Why can't you admit MJ made a mistake? No one is saying it didn't happen. You criticize Pippen for one play but not MJ for an entire game with the series tied.

Jordan did make mistakes, just look at the 1987 first round or when he lost the ball to Nick Anderson in 95.

Also, it was pointed out that he had 9 assists that game. Was he really packing it in, then?

That was Jordan I believe. I don't remember him getting in his face, just telling him to do so.

I see.

No but I have never heard of Bird or Erving dominating a NBA finals with their defense. Can any old-timers comment on this? Abe?

Anyway, this is off track. The fact that you had to invoke Bird and Erving to find better SF's in that regard speaks volumes about how good Pippen was.

You're right, Scottie is one of the ten best small forwards to ever play in the NBA. Lebron, Bird, Erving, Rick Barry and Baylor are the only ones I can name off the top of my head that were better than him. I believe that speaks volumes of how talented he was.

[Alhazred]

I would have done the same thing. Pippen finally had the chance to be the man, and he was doing a great job, and Phil totally pulled the rug from underneath him. Would he have done the same thing to MJ? Very disrespectful given Pippen's history in Chicago. And I wouldn't have stopped w/not playing either, I would have told the GM either me or the coach has to go.

You'd tell your gm to get rid of Phil Jackson? Seriously?

[Roundball_Rock]

The reason it went to Kukoc was because NY was a really big team and would use their size to front you. That is why it would go to someone like Kukoc who was near 6-10 and can catch the ball over someone like Anthony Mason or Charles Smith. Armstrong was a really clutch player and did end up hitting a potential game winner in that series (the Hue Holins game) but the nest decision was to go to Kukoc at the time. My only problem with Pippen was him being ignorant of the situation and failing to put his bitterness with Kukoc away to realize Toni was the best option for a catch and shoot situation considering his size and range. If it was 5 or so seconds left, the best option would be to give it to Pippen and let him make a play.

I also think Phil should be left out of any blame considering the fact that he often would help the players out and listen to their problems while the Jerry's would blindly ignore them.

I agree on all points.

Also, it was pointed out that he had 9 assists that game. Was he really packing it in, then?

He had 32 points on 25 shots and 13 assists in the next game. You tell me. No one disputes what he did.

You're right, Scottie is one of the ten best small forwards to ever play in the NBA. Lebron, Bird, Erving, Rick Barry and Baylor are the only ones I can name off the top of my head that were better than him. I believe that speaks volumes of how talented he was.

Yeah, pretty much although he has a case over some of them all-time based on accomplishments (6 championships vs. 0 or 1) and defense (Barry, from what I've read, was a poor defender). He has no case over Bird or Dr. J, though.

I would have told the GM either me or the coach has to go.

Jackson handled the situation extremely well and all was forgiven, both by the players and coach by the next game where Pippen had 25 points and led his team to evening the series. Even the fans cheered him when he was introduced. I and many others thought he might have been booed.

[Alhazred]

The reason it went to Kukoc was because NY was a really big team and would use their size to front you. That is why it would go to someone like Kukoc who was near 6-10 and can catch the ball over someone like Anthony Mason or Charles Smith. Armstrong was a really clutch player and did end up hitting a potential game winner in that series (the Hue Holins game) but the nest decision was to go to Kukoc at the time. My only problem with Pippen was him being ignorant of the situation and failing to put his bitterness with Kukoc away to realize Toni was the best option for a catch and shoot situation considering his size and range. If it was 5 or so seconds left, the best option would be to give it to Pippen and let him make a play.

I also think Phil should be left out of any blame considering the fact that he often would help the players out and listen to their problems while the Jerry's would blindly ignore them.

Good post, concurred.