1994 Knicks vs Bulls Game 3. What was Pippen thinking?

[Roundball_Rock]

He also hit a game winning shot in Rodman's face in game 3.

And Pippen had 25 points in Game 3. Does that excuse what he did? Jordan quit a game with the series tied 2-2 and you are excusing it? That is hypocritical, no?

His stats were discussed in another thread. If your argument is him working the offense to get Steve Kerr a good shot when Kerr was cold didn't reduce his scoring well there is not much that can be said in response. What happened in 99'? Taking a million Mailman charges in the 98' finals and injuring your back as a result is what happened.

The Pippen-Barkley thing was started by Barkley after Pippen said he wanted to get traded in the offseason.

Jordan and Kobe got free passes?

You just gave MJ one about 5 minutes after criticizing Pippen. Can you point to one thread where Game 5 of the 89' ECF was discussed? I have never seen it even mentioned here by anyone other than me, let alone a thread about it.

God i still remember the 98-99 Season that he quit on us. i still remember that terrible inbound pass in game 1 against the lakers . i still remember the terrible misses when he was posting Kobe up in game 2 and 4. he only had one good game and that was game 3 when he had 37. he was just terrible with us.

A poor series does not=quitting. I don't recall Hakeem lighting it up in that series either. Did he quit too? Edit I just checked. Hakeem averaged 13 ppg and had 8 points in Game 2 and 5 with the series on the line in Game 3. Yeah, Pippen did struggle in the Hakeem-Barkley interior oriented Houston offense where Pippen's job was to stand on the wings and wait for a bone from Hakeem-Barkley but to call it quitting is inaccurate.

[97 bulls]

actually, that shot that steve kerr hit wasnt designed for him. it was absolutely for jordan. kerr was there as a back up in the event that stockton came over to help.

[Alhazred]

Dominant defender? Pippen was a very good three point shooter but I wouldn't compare his three point shot to Reggie Miller's.

Actually, the Sixers would put Erving on Bird during early 80s playoff series to neutralize him sometimes when he wasn't scoring. Now, we all know Bird is a great scorer, so the fact that Erving was used to contain him says a lot about his defensive prowess.

[chitownsfinest]

The play that Jackson designed for Kukoc was a strictly basketball-related move at the time. Pippen was getting hounded by Mason in the 4th quarter of that game and in crunch time's of that series in general. Getting a shot off with Mason on you would be extremely tough to do so the best option was to go to Kukoc on the catch and shoot as Kukoc was really good in those types of situations as well, considering his long length which did made it difficult to block his shot. Kukoc also had a couple of game winners that same season I believe. Pippen was being a bit ignorant of the situation in hand while the play was being drawn imp but all in all, I forgive him since the shot was made.

Also, the whole team quit on Doug Collins. It was referenced in a old Bill Simmons article and in "The Jordan Rules" if you don't believe me.

[Roundball_Rock]

Also, the whole team quit on Doug Collins. It was referenced in a old Bill Simmons article and in "The Jordan Rules" if you don't believe me.

I read both. What you are talking about is completely different. Numbers don't lie. Jordan took over 30% of his team's shots in games 1-4. The series was tied 2-2. What changed in Game 5? Collins asked MJ to pass the ball more. MJ got offended and mailed it in. The Bulls lost by single digits.

Actually, the Sixers would put Erving on Bird during early 80s playoff series to neutralize him sometimes when he wasn't scoring. Now, we all know Bird is a great scorer, so the fact that Erving was used to contain him says a lot about his defensive prowess.

He made only one all-D team in his entire career. I guess no one got the memo about his dominant defense?

[ronnymac]

And Pippen had 25 points in Game 3. Does that excuse what he did? Jordan quit a game with the series tied 2-2 and you are excusing it? That is hypocritical, no?

His stats were discussed in another thread. If your argument is him working the offense to get Steve Kerr a good shot when Kerr was cold didn't reduce his scoring well there is not much that can be said in response. What happened in 99'? Taking a million Mailman charges in the 98' finals and injuring your back as a result is what happened.

The Pippen-Barkley thing was started by Barkley after Pippen said he wanted to get traded in the offseason.



You just gave MJ one about 5 minutes after criticizing Pippen. Can you point to one thread where Game 5 of the 89' ECF was discussed? I have never seen it even mentioned here by anyone other than me, let alone a thread about it.



A poor series does not=quitting. I don't recall Hakeem lighting it up in that series either. Did he quit too? Edit I just checked. Hakeem averaged 13 ppg and had 8 points in Game 2 and 5 with the series on the line in Game 3. Yeah, Pippen did struggle in the Hakeem-Barkley interior oriented Houston offense where Pippen's job was to stand on the wings and wait for a bone from Hakeem-Barkley but to call it quitting is inaccurate.

Barkley had a fine series. he was killing Jr Reed. he was our best avenue on offense. Olajuwon was on a downward spiral all season. the 98-99 season was the beggining of the end for the dream.he did'nt quit. Pippen just was'nt interested all series except game 3 where he took 26 shots.

[Alhazred]

And Pippen had 25 points in Game 3. Does that excuse what he did? Jordan quit a game with the series tied 2-2 and you are excusing it? That is hypocritical, no?

I'm a bit confused. Jordan's a ballhog for taking a lot of shots but is a "quitter" when he cuts back when asked? Which is it? Also, did he really "quit"? What about his other stats?

His stats were discussed in another thread. If your argument is him working the offense to get Steve Kerr a good shot when Kerr was cold didn't reduce his scoring well there is not much that can be said in response. What happened in 99'? Taking a million Mailman charges in the 98' finals and injuring your back as a result is what happened.

He was injured since 96 yet his stats up to 98 were fairly consistent. So again I ask, what happened?

The Pippen-Barkley thing was started by Barkley after Pippen said he wanted to get traded in the offseason.

Regardless of who started it, those were harsh words from a guy who supposedly didn't scold his teammates, don't you think? Look, I like Pippen, he was one of my favorite players and I already said he redeemed himself with his fantastic play from 96-98. There's no need to be overly defensive here. Hell, I agree with you when you say one moment doesn't define his career, it's just that this was a big moment for him considering he was finally the main guy on the team. After that, I was a bit hesitant whenever I heard anyone claim how selfish Jordan was in comparison.

[97 bulls]

actually, i totally understand why pippen did what he did. hes been disrespected his whole career up to this point. constantly hearing that its all due to jordan that the bulls have three rings. nevermind the contributions he added. all pip wanted was a shot to make a name for himself. and thats no difference than what magic did in i believe 85 when the play was drawn up for kareem and he broke the play and took the last shot. everybody respects him for that. or kobe totally undermining the lakers for a year or 2. and thus costing him at least 2 rings with shaq. and shaq vice versa. or the countless times players get their coaches fired due to differences. i see no difference.

[Alhazred]

He made only one all-D team in his entire career. I guess no one got the memo about his dominant defense?

So, you judge a player's abilities strictly on awards? Nice.

[Roundball_Rock]

I'm a bit confused. Jordan's a ballhog for taking a lot of shots but is a "quitter" when he cuts back when asked? Which is it? Also, did he really "quit"? What about his other stats?

LOL he wasn't asked take just 8 shots. Jordan averaged 27 shots a game in the playoffs that year. You watched Jordan's career and saw how many shots he would take, especially in the playoffs. Did you ever see him take 8 shots? Connect the dots.

I don't know what his other stats were. We don't have game logs for the playoffs. It doesn't matter so Smith did not mention it in his book. The numbers in this case speak for themselves. 28 shots a game in the other playoff games yet only 8 in this one.

He was injured since 96 yet his stats up to 98 were fairly consistent. So again I ask, what happened?

Aging, severity of the injury. Krause believed Pippen's body was breaking down by 1997. He proved to be right. You didn't notice a difference between 98' Pippen and 96' Pippen?

Regardless of who started it, those were harsh words from a guy who supposedly didn't scold his teammates, don't you think?

We are talking about on the court in the heat of battle. Again, these aren't my words. These are coming straight from Phil Jackson and his teammates. They were on the court with him and in the huddle.

So, you judge a player's abilities strictly on awards? Nice.

No, but you seem to not understand there are varying degrees of ability. Was Pippen as good a three point shooter as Reggie Miller? Is your argument that Dr. J was as dominant a defender as Pippen? Maybe he was. I haven't seen much of him. That said, I have never heard Dr. J ever mentioned in the GOAT perimeter defender discussion. Is everyone underrating his D? Maybe, but if so he was underrated in that respect at the time too.

actually, i totally understand why pippen did what he did. hes been disrespected his whole career up to this point. constantly hearing that its all due to jordan that the bulls have three rings. nevermind the contributions he added. all pip wanted was a shot to make a name for himself. and thats no difference than what magic did in i believe 85 when the play was drawn up for kareem and he broke the play and took the last shot. everybody respects him for that. or kobe totally undermining the lakers for a year or 2. and thus costing him at least 2 rings with shaq. and shaq vice versa. or the countless times players get their coaches fired due to differences. i see no difference.

[Alhazred]

actually, i totally understand why pippen did what he did. hes been disrespected his whole career up to this point. constantly hearing that its all due to jordan that the bulls have three rings. nevermind the contributions he added. all pip wanted was a shot to make a name for himself. and thats no difference than what magic did in i believe 85 when the play was drawn up for kareem and he broke the play and took the last shot. everybody respects him for that. or kobe totally undermining the lakers for a year or 2. and thus costing him at least 2 rings with shaq. and shaq vice versa. or the countless times players get their coaches fired due to differences. i see no difference.

That's fair enough, but at the end of a game and BENCHING yourself? Ok, that might be a bit harsh, actually. If Kukoc hadn't made the shot, I probably would've sided with Pippen a bit more. Toni made the shot in the end though, which made Scottie look like a total ass. Still a great player, though. That dunk on Ewing during the same game was sick as Hell, I must admit.

[chitownsfinest]

The Pippen-Barkley feud was actually started by Pippen when he badmouthed Barkley in an interview with ESPN for being lazy and asked to be traded. The reason he got heat for what he said despite saying what was arguably true was because Barkley had taken a large paycut just so Houston could afford Pippen's salary when he came to Houston.

Also, MJ can be said to have mailed it in during that game 5 performance but maybe he was making a point that if they were going to criticize him for being a ball hog, then they better not criticize him for not looking to give other teammates shots (he had 9 assists in that game as well). Also the whole team was fed up with Collins at that point and had already started a campaign against him as well.

[Mister JT]

But Pippen wasn't "disrespected in his whole career up to that point."

His athletic ability was recognized by the league. He even was a Slam Dunk Contest participant. He was a multiple all-atar, a Dream Teamer and a three time champion. I think it was actually Horace Grant who felt overlooked during the first three-peat. And nobody said the the rings were all due to Jordan.

Magic didn't take the hook shot to make a name for himself. He read the defense and reacted.

[Roundball_Rock]

That's fair enough, but at the end of a game and BENCHING yourself? Ok, that might be a bit harsh, actually. If Kukoc hadn't made the shot, I probably would've sided with Pippen a bit more. Toni made the shot in the end though, which made Scottie look like a total ass. Still a great player, though. That dunk on Ewing during the same game was sick as Hell, I must admit.

The Ewing dunk was in Game 6.

I don't remember the details, chi, but I'll take your word. Regardless of the details what Pippen did regarding Barkley was wrong. They apparently made up for it. Barkley spoke at Pippen's jersey retirement ceremony.

Also, MJ can be said to have mailed it in during that game 5 performance but maybe he was making a point that if they were going to criticize him for being a ball hog, then they better not criticize him for not looking to give other teammates shots (he had 9 assists in that game as well). Also the whole team was fed up with Collins at that point and had already started a campaign against him as well.

His point was his team needed him to shoot that much to win. He was wrong, though, to do it. Do you believe mailing in a ECF game with the series tied is right? If he played they could have taken a 3-2 lead heading to Chicago for Game 6.

But Pippen wasn't "disrespected in his whole career up to that point."

He was by Bulls management, especially Krause. Calling the play for Kukoc made it even worse given the Krause-Pippen-Kukoc saga. If he called it for Steve Kerr would he have blown a gasket? Probably not.

Lots of people have claimed he just rode MJ's coattails.

[chitownsfinest]

Also before RoundballRock throws a hissy fit at my last post and calls me a Pippen hater, I did not mean that to be anti Pippen at any way.