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Old 06-20-2012, 07:01 PM   #16
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Default Re: John Sally on First take

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Originally Posted by IGOTGAME
magic says a lot of things about himself and others that are not true. He is extremely humble.
He even refuses to say he's better than Bird even though he's beaten Bird in college and in the NBA for championships.

He'll say something like, he's the better guard and Bird was the better forward.
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Old 06-20-2012, 07:21 PM   #17
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Default Re: John Sally on First take

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Originally Posted by AK47DR91
He even refuses to say he's better than Bird even though he's beaten Bird in college and in the NBA for championships.

He'll say something like, he's the better guard and Bird was the better forward.
I wasn't aware that Magic and Bird ever played 1on1 in college or the NBA.
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Old 06-20-2012, 07:33 PM   #18
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Default Re: John Sally on First take

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I wasn't aware that Magic and Bird ever played 1on1 in college or the NBA.
You know what I meant.
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Old 06-20-2012, 07:34 PM   #19
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Default Re: John Sally on First take

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Spiderman should know. He knocked Jordan and the Bulls three straight years as a Bad Boy and played with him later in his career. Who else would have a better opinion on the matter?

Yeah this is the same idiot, who said Zeke was the best player he has ever played with...let me guess he was better than Jordan too. Dude didn't get on the floor with Jordan, he was a spectator
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Old 06-20-2012, 07:34 PM   #20
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Default Re: John Sally on First take

I've heard a few players say that Magic was the greatest, don't have links though.
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Old 06-20-2012, 08:04 PM   #21
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Default Re: John Sally on First take

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Originally Posted by tpols
Yea it's pretty funny.. Like if you put prime Wilt on the Knicks in place of Ewing would MJ and the bulls really beat them every year? If you were to tranpose any of the true legends onto stacked rosters in the 90s and give them a top 50 all time player as a sidekick they would be winning rings too.

Jordan had the best team/supporting cast out of all the other greats.. better than Barkley, Hakeem, Drob, Ewing.. and no one every acknowledges it. It's just MJ won it.

Uh what? Magic and Bird had far more stacked teams. Shaq was gifted superstar teammates to play with practically every year of his career outside of his rookie season.

Wilt played on some stacked Laker squads. Russell had a ton of great players on those Celtic squads.

Jordan had Pippen, who was terrific but could be inconsistent offensively, and a bunch of role players basically.

If you put Jordan, Bird, Magic, Wilt, Kareem, etc. on basically equally talented teams and have them all play each other, IMO I would probably take Team Jordan.

Last edited by Soundwave : 06-20-2012 at 08:07 PM.
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Old 06-20-2012, 08:23 PM   #22
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Default Re: John Sally on First take

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Originally Posted by Soundwave
Uh what? Magic and Bird had far more stacked teams. Shaq was gifted superstar teammates to play with practically every year of his career outside of his rookie season.

Wilt played on some stacked Laker squads. Russell had a ton of great players on those Celtic squads.

Jordan had Pippen, who was terrific but could be inconsistent offensively, and a bunch of role players basically.

If you put Jordan, Bird, Magic, Wilt, Kareem, etc. on basically equally talented teams and have them all play each other, IMO I would probably take Team Jordan.

Is the game only about scoring? Are volume scorers the only real players and everybody else is a "role player"?

I'm just asking because you just refered the greatest rebounder and one of the greatest defenders defender to ever live as a role player.
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Old 06-21-2012, 03:39 AM   #23
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Default Re: John Sally on First take

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Originally Posted by tpols
Jordan had the best team/supporting cast out of all the other greats.. better than Barkley, Hakeem, Drob, Ewing.. and no one every acknowledges it. It's just MJ won it.

Phil Jackson, Horace Grant, Scottie Pippen, Steve Kerr and even Jerry Krause and Sam Smith all said MJ helped them become better, more prepared, championship-ready players. MJ took what he had and helped create a championship team. You look silly trying to take that away from him.
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Old 06-21-2012, 03:46 AM   #24
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Default Re: John Sally on First take

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Originally Posted by ZenMaster
Is the game only about scoring? Are volume scorers the only real players and everybody else is a "role player"?

I'm just asking because you just refered the greatest rebounder and one of the greatest defenders defender to ever live as a role player.

I said it was Jordan + Pippen + role players. Which is basically what the Bulls were.

Rodman was a tremendous rebounder and defender, but the Bulls basically played 4 on 5 offensively.

The Celtics and Lakers of the 80s in terms of pure talent/depth were obviously more talented than the Bulls (that doesn't mean better, just more talent).

If Jordan had Kareem + Worthy + AC + Coop etc. to play with he'd have won a title long before 1991.
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Old 06-21-2012, 03:48 AM   #25
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Default Re: John Sally on First take

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Originally Posted by Da_Realist
Phil Jackson, Horace Grant, Scottie Pippen, Steve Kerr and even Jerry Krause and Sam Smith all said MJ helped them become better, more prepared, championship-ready players. MJ took what he had and helped create a championship team. You look silly trying to take that away from him.
MJ had a hand in their development.. but that impact he had on his teammates isnt changing John Starks into Scottie Pippen. MJ had better teams around him than all of the 90s superstars besides maybe Karl Malone. If you were to put all time great players like Kareem, Wilt, Russel into the 90s with similar talent MJ's teams arent winning anymore than the other guys' are. The way hes considered the unanimous undisputed GOAT is just absurd. 99% of people should not have him as GOAT.. about 40-50% of that 99 are just following especially younger people.
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Old 06-21-2012, 03:51 AM   #26
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Default Re: John Sally on First take

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Originally Posted by tpols
MJ had a hand in their development.. but that impact he had on his teammates isnt changing John Starks into Scottie Pippen. MJ had better teams around him than all of the 90s superstars besides maybe Karl Malone. If you were to put all time great players like Kareem, Wilt, Russel into the 90s with similar talent MJ's teams arent winning anymore than the other guys' are. The way hes considered the unanimous undisputed GOAT is just absurd. 99% of people should not have him as GOAT.. about 40-50% of that 99 are just following especially younger people.

Drexler had some great teams with the Blazers. Very deep.

The Orlando Magic of the 90s were overall more talented than the Bulls too.

The 90s Pacers stacked up quite well with the Bulls too (Reggie, the Davis bros, Smits, then later Jalen Rose too).

Barkley had Kevin Johnson, who reminds me a lot of Russell Westbrook, Dan Majerle was a dead eye shooter too.

Jordan is consider GOAT more because of the completeness of his game. Russel wasn't a dominant offensive player, Jordan has the scoring titles. Wilt had the scoring titles, but wasn't the winner that Jordan was. Magic/Bird have the titles, but weren't the all-defensive player than Jordan was.

The one player that probably has the best case is Kareem, but Kareem was more of a 2nd option in the last three titles he won, Jordan was no.1 for all six titles.

Jordan has the individual dominance (scoring titles, multiple MVPs, highest ppg in NBA history) to go with all-around awards (defensive player of the year, multiple all-NBA defensive team, etc.) and the championships as the no.1 option (six of them).

Arguably no other NBA player has such a resume.

Last edited by Soundwave : 06-21-2012 at 03:54 AM.
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Old 06-21-2012, 03:58 AM   #27
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Default Re: John Sally on First take

Quote:
Originally Posted by tpols
MJ had a hand in their development.. but that impact he had on his teammates isnt changing John Starks into Scottie Pippen. MJ had better teams around him than all of the 90s superstars besides maybe Karl Malone. If you were to put all time great players like Kareem, Wilt, Russel into the 90s with similar talent MJ's teams arent winning anymore than the other guys' are. The way hes considered the unanimous undisputed GOAT is just absurd. 99% of people should not have him as GOAT.. about 40-50% of that 99 are just following especially younger people.

I didn't say MJ did it alone. What I said was he took what he had and helped make them champions. If Ewing had the work ethic and desire MJ had, who knows what changes he could have spearheaded with the Knicks to make them champions? I fully believe if MJ had started in New York, he would have won titles -- John Starks or no John Starks. Because that was the only reason he suited up. Maybe MJ would have helped the Knicks become strong enough mentally as constituted to win (they DID make the 94 Finals) and if not, MJ would have demanded everyone be accountable to help make that team championship caliber from the front office down to the 12th man. Pressure creates diamonds. The pressure MJ put on the team to win put a spark in everyone's ass. He would have done the same thing no matter where he ended up.

You can't tell me MJ was gifted a championship caliber team without acknowledging he had a major hand in creating that environment. Steve Kerr said practices were harder than games because of MJ. One of the reasons the Bulls were so mentally strong. Can someone say the same thing for David Robinson or Charles Barkley?
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Old 06-21-2012, 04:12 AM   #28
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Default Re: John Sally on First take

There's no such thing as greatest player ever. Basketball is a team game. It takes a team to win rings. Each player plays a different position.

If anything players should be ranked by primary position. Basketball isn't boxing, tennis or golf.
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Old 06-21-2012, 04:18 AM   #29
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Default Re: John Sally on First take

First Take is much better when it's different people each day on the show debating vs. Skip instead of just SAS all the damn time. Like Ochocinco, Bosh, Common and a bunch more were a nice change.
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Old 06-21-2012, 04:41 AM   #30
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Default Re: John Sally on First take

Don't cry OP
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