Wilt Chamberlain vs Bill Russell 1965 EDF stats

[jlauber]

THIS is owning!

THIS is laughble.

Incidently how about this...

I have pointed out the some 40 games in which Chamberlain just hammered Russell, and here they are again:

For reference, the first number of the pair next to each player's name is points in that particular game, while the second is rebounds. An example would be the first one, with Wilt scoring 45 points, and grabbing 35 rebounds (45-35), while Russell's numbers were 15 points, with 13 rebounds (15-13.)


Wilt 45-35 Russell 15-13
Wilt 47-36 Russell 16-22
Wilt 44-43 Russell 15-29
Wilt 43-26 Russell 13-21
Wilt 43-39….Russell 20-24
Wilt 53-29 Russell 22-32
Wilt 42-29 Russell 19-30
Wilt 50-35 Russell 22-27
Wilt 34-55….Russell 18-19
Wilt 39-30 Russell 6-19
Wilt 44-35 Russell 20-21
Wilt 34-38 Russell 17-20
Wilt..52-30….Russell 21-31
Wilt 41-28 Russell 11-24
Wilt 62-28 Russell 23-29
Wilt 38-31 Russell 11-18
Wilt 42-37 Russell 9-20
Wilt 45-27 Russell 12-26
Wilt 43-32 Russell 8-30
Wilt 32-27 Russell 11-16
Wilt 50-17….Russell 23-21
Wilt 35-32….Russell 16-28
Wilt 32-25 Russell…9-24
Wilt 31-30 Russell 12-22
Wilt 37-32 Russell 16-24
Wilt 27-34 Russell..12-17
Wilt 27-43 Russell 13-26
Wilt 30-39 Russell 12-16
Wilt 31-40….Russell 11-17
Wilt 37-42 Russell 14-25
Wilt 29-26 Russell 3-27
Wilt 27-36….Russell 13-20
Wilt 27-32 Russell 6-22
Wilt 32-30 Russell 8-20
Wilt 46-34 Russell 18-31
Wilt 20-41….Russell 10-29
Wilt 29-36 Russell 4-21
Wilt 31-27 Russell 3-8
Wilt 35-19 Russell 5-16
Wilt 12-42 Russell 11-18


While Simmons may not believe that Chamberlain STATISTICALLY dominated Russell, I think the OVERWHELMING evidence suggests otherwise.

And, in their 142 H2H games, Wilt held a 92-42-8 margin in rebounding, and a 132-10 edge in scoring.

Now...THAT is OWNING!

[julizaver]

Again...a lie.

In the '64 regular season, Russell averaged 15.0 ppg on .433 shooting. Against Wilt in the Finals... 11.2 ppg. I don't have Russell's FG% in that Finals, but he shot .356 in his 10 post-season games, and five of them were against Wilt.

For that 64 finals Russell averaged 11.2 ppg on 0.386 shooting.
Wilt shooting was 0.517 (62 from 120).

[Owl]

But Russell's stats were up. And Chamberlain's were down. Never mind that Chamberlain's were so much better in the regular season that even after these changes Wilt's were still much better.

Because after all, the title is awarded to the team whose stats rise the most in the postseason. That's why everyone wants the 8 seed.

[jlauber]

For that 64 finals Russell averaged 11.2 ppg on 0.386 shooting.
Wilt shooting was 0.517 (62 from 120).

Damn...where have you been man?

[jlauber]

But Russell's stats were up. And Chamberlain's were down. Never mind that Chamberlain's were so much better in the regular season that even after these changes Wilt's were still much better.

Because after all, the title is awarded to the team whose stats rise the most in the postseason. That's why everyone wants the 8 seed.

Exactly.

Furthermore, it doesn't matter how good your teammates are, or how well they play, either.

For instance, Wilt was just as much to blame for his Warriors losing a game seven, by two points, to the 60-20 Celtics and their SEVEN HOFers (in a post-season in which Wilt's teammates shot .354)...as MJ was in his sweeping loss in the '86 playoff series against the 67-15 Celtics and their FIVE HOFers.

[jlauber]

But Russell's stats were up. And Chamberlain's were down. Never mind that Chamberlain's were so much better in the regular season that even after these changes Wilt's were still much better.

Because after all, the title is awarded to the team whose stats rise the most in the postseason. That's why everyone wants the 8 seed.

And using their logic, if player A averages 40 ppg in the regular season, and player B averages 2 ppg in the regular season...then, in the post-season, if player A "only" averages 38 ppg, and player B "jumps up" to 4 ppg...well, player B is clearly the better player. He ELEVATED his play, while player A DECLINED.

[jlauber]

Russell, generally playing with vastly superior rosters, (and those rosters generally played BETTER in the post-season, unlike Wilt's, which almost always played even WORSE in the playoffs) held a 7-1 H2H edge in TEAM playoff series wins over Chamberlain's TEAMs. BUT, FOUR of them came down to game seven's, in which Boston won by margins of 2, 1, 4, and 2 points. Wilt was NINE points away from holding a 5-3 margin against Russell. Where would Wilt rank all-time, with SIX rings, instead of two?

[jlauber]

For that 64 finals Russell averaged 11.2 ppg on 0.386 shooting.
Wilt shooting was 0.517 (62 from 120).

I have all four of Wilt's FG-FGAs in his four game H2H game seven's against Russell , (totals were 30-47 or .638), but I only have three of Russell's (7-14, 7-16, and 2-7.) Do you have Russell's FG-FGA in game seven of the '68 ECF's?

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

...unlike Wilt

True. There has never been a player like Wilt. A guy who could score 100 points in a single game, yet get outscored in all four game 7's vs the Celtics by Sam Jones. Check these numbers out: Lebron averaged 17.8 ppg in the 2011 finals; that was Wilt's average in the 1967 finals to win his 1st title. And again, what about game 6 of the '69 finals?

With a chance to win it all and retire Russell, Wilt had 8 pts...to Russ' 18 PTS AT AGE 35 IN HIS 2ND TO LAST CAREER GAME. Well, we all know what happened next. Another Game 7 fright night for Wilt.

Even West's 42/13/12 wasn't enough to propel the EPIC choke job from Wilt.

[jlauber]

True. There has never been a player like Wilt. A guy who could score 100 points in a single game, yet get outscored in all four game 7's vs the Celtics by Sam Jones. Check these numbers out: Lebron averaged 17.8 ppg in the 2011 finals; that was Wilt's average in the 1967 finals to win his 1st title. And again, what about game 6 of the '69 finals?

With a chance to win it all and retire Russell, Wilt had 8 pts...to Russ' 18 PTS AT AGE 35 IN HIS 2ND TO LAST CAREER GAME. Well, we all know what happened next. Another Game 7 fright night for Wilt.

Even West's 42/13/12 wasn't enough to propel the EPIC choke job from Wilt.

I probably shouldn't waste my time responding to this pure nonsense, but since I waiting to watch the US Open, I will.

In the '67 Finals, Chamberlain faced off against Thurmond. Wilt outscored Thurmond in five of those six games, and outrebounded him in five of six games. In the clinching game six win, all Wilt did was score 24 points, on 8-13 shooting, with 23 rebounds, while holding Thurmond to 12 points, on 4-13 shooting, with 22 rebounds.

Furthemore, Chamberlain outshot Thurmond in that series by a mind-boggling .560 to .343 margin. This, after outscoring Russell in the '67 ECF's by a 21.6 ppg to 10.2 ppg margin, and outshooting Russell by a .556 to .358 margin. (And in the clinching game five win, Chamberlain outscored Russell, 29-4; outshot Russell, 10-16 to 2-5; outassisted Russell, 13-7; and outrebounded Russell, 36-21.)

Interesting too that Wilt faced Thurmond in three playoff series, and badly outrebounded him in all three. AND, he outshot Nate by margins of .500 to .392; .550 to .398; and that .560 to .343 margin.

Incidently, Kareem also faced Thurmond in three post-season series...and shot .486, .428, and .405 against him (and in the '72 playoffs, Thurmond outscored him 25.2 ppg to 22.8 ppg, while outshooting him .437 to .405.)

In any case, in the Sixers '67 post-season, while Greer led the team in scoring at 27 ppg, he only shot .429. Chamberlain averaged 21.7 ppg on .579 shooting. And Wilt also had the Sixer's post-season HIGH game, of 41 points (on 19-30 shooting) against the Royals. BTW, in that Royals, series, all Chamberlain did was average 28.0 ppg, 26.5 rpg, 11.0 apg, and shot .612.

Too bad Wilt seldom got to feast on the "average" centers of his era in the post-season. In his 160 post-season games, he faced a starting HOF center in 105 of them, and a multiple all-star in another 26. Think about that, in Chamberlain's 160 post-season games, he either faced a very good, or a great center in 131 of them.

As for Sam Jones...and once again, Chamberlain OUTSCORED Jones in their '60, '62, '64, '65, '66, and '67 H2H series.

And Chamberlain's EPIC "choke job" in that game seven of the '69 Finals? He outscored Russell, 18-6; he outrebounded Russell, 27-21; and he outshot Russell, 7-8 to 2-7. BTW, while Chamberlain was shooting .875 from the field in that game seven, his teammates were collectively shooting .360. And Van Breda Kolf's "favorite" (over Wilt anyway), Baylor, shot 8-22 from the field in that game seven. Which was still better than his game three of 4-14 and his game four of 2-14.

And I have covered West already, too. True, he was maginificent in that game seven. And, he was great in the first six games of the '70 Finals, too. However, he was murdered by Frazier in the seventh game of the '70 Finals.

Then, West missed the ENTIRE '71 playoffs (as did Baylor.)

And how about West in the '72 playoffs? He shot .376 in his 15 playoff games, and only .325 in his five Finals' games. Meanwhile, Chamberlain outplayed Kareem in the WCF's, and then went on to win the FMVP in the Finals. That would be West's only ring...and it was CLEARLY because of WILT.

And, in West's last post-season with Chamberlain, he not only shot .443 in the playoffs, but in the clinching game five loss in the Finals, he shot 5-17 (while Wilt, in his LAST game, scored 23 points, on 9-16 shooting, with 21 rebounds.)

[Carbine]

It's interesting to see those stats.

If that series happened today, where the two best players were going at it (oh wait, it is) and one of them got out-scored by twice as many points per game on much better percentages and got out-rebounded the other guy by a decent amount.... and ended up winning, people would be putting asterisks by that title and not counting it.

Could you imagine if LeBron put up 20 points, 7 rebounds, 6 assists on 40 percent FG percentage and 65 FT percentage to Durants 40 points, 10 rebounds, 3 assists on 50 percent from the floor and 85 percent from the FT line? What people would say in the following weeks and off-season? LeBron's title would get downgraded like a mofo.

[upside24]

Yep...badly outplayed Wilt by being outscored 30.1 to 15.6 ppg, outrebounded, 31.4 rpg to 25.3 rpg; and being outshot from the field, .555 to .447 (and even being outshot from the line, .583 to .472.)

Reminds me of Joe Frazier using his face to wear out George Foreman's hand in their two round fight in '73.

[jlauber]

It's interesting to see those stats.

If that series happened today, where the two best players were going at it (oh wait, it is) and one of them got out-scored by twice as many points per game on much better percentages and got out-rebounded the other guy by a decent amount.... and ended up winning, people would be putting asterisks by that title and not counting it.

Could you imagine if LeBron put up 20 points, 7 rebounds, 6 assists on 40 percent FG percentage and 65 FT percentage to Durants 40 points, 10 rebounds, 3 assists on 50 percent from the floor and 85 percent from the FT line? What people would say in the following weeks and off-season? LeBron's title would get downgraded like a mofo.

To be fair, Russell played well in that series, as he did in almost all of their H2H playoff series. But the reality was, Wilt HAD to do MORE for his TEAM's to win. An even statistical battle was usually a one-sided romp for Boston.

A great example of that was in game two of the '62 ECF's. Chamberlain outscored Russell, 42-9, and outrebounded Russell, 37-20...and his team won the game by seven points.

Wilt was not only saddled with putrid rosters in most of those H2H's, his teammates then usually played even worse.

[jlauber]

BTW,...a quick shoutout to Julizaver. One of the premier "researchers" on this site. His Kareem-Wilt H2H's have been widely used on the internet. And he was the first, that I know of, to publish those 28 H2H statlines.

[Deuce Bigalow]

jlauber got owned again