MJ elevated teammates; Lebron turns teammates into play-finishers

[3ball]

.
Efficiency [COLOR="Red"]WITH[/COLOR] Lebron James on the floor in 2015 Finals:

JR Smith
Delly
J. Jones
Shumpert

Total 56/171 (32.7%)


As you can see, those guys shot horribly WITH Lebron on the floor, which is pretty standard - it's become typical for Lebron's teammates to underperform alongside him in the Finals, for obvious reasons:

It's statistical fact that Lebron reduces his teammates' APG and increases their assisted rate, thus turning them from playmakers to play-finishers.. [COLOR="Navy"]Not surprisingly, their simple play-finishing roles no longer find success against the best playoff teams[/COLOR]..

With teammates playing under capacity, the TEAM plays under capacity and eventually loses to an opponent they had the capacity to beat (i.e. losing as the favorite in 2009 ECF, 2010 ECSF, and 2011 Finals, or losing when it was 50/50 - 2014 Finals).

That's the difference between 2/6 underachievement and 6/6 perfection.. MJ got the most out of his teammates (elevates teammates), while Lebron turns them into play-finishers, leading to team underperformance.

Now the question is WHY SPECIFICALLY does Lebron turn teammates into play-finishers?.. The reason is twofold.
.

[plowking]

You need help. If anyone can convince you, it is your boy, the one you look up to, and slurp harder than anyone...

[aj1987]

Now the question is WHY SPECIFICALLY does Lebron turn teammates into play-finishers?

Because LeBron >>>>> MJ.

[3ball]

You need help. If anyone can convince you, it is your boy, the one you look up to, and slurp harder than anyone...

.
[COLOR="Blue"]Lebron significantly lowers the APG and assist % of his teammates:[/COLOR]


[COLOR="Green"]Wade apg and assist % before Lebron (04'-10'):[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 6.6, 34.8% [/COLOR]
[COLOR="Red"]Wade apg and assist % with[COLOR="White"]...[/COLOR] Lebron (11'-14'):[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 4.7, 25.5% [/COLOR]

[COLOR="Green"]Irving apg and assist % before Lebron (12'-14'):[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 5.8, 33.2[/COLOR]
[COLOR="Red"]Irving apg and assist % with[COLOR="White"].....[/COLOR] Lebron (2015):[COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] 5.2, 25.0%[/COLOR]

[COLOR="Green"]Bosh apg and assist % before Lebron (04'-10'):[COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] 2.2, 10.5%[/COLOR]
[COLOR="Red"]Bosh apg and assist % with[COLOR="White"]...[/COLOR] Lebron (11'-14'):[COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] 1.6, [COLOR="White"].[/COLOR]8.0% [/COLOR]

[COLOR="Green"]Kevin Love apg and assist % in MIN:[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 2.5, 13.0%[/COLOR]
[COLOR="Red"]Kevin Love apg and assist % in CLE:[COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] 2.2, 10.7%[/COLOR]

[COLOR="Green"]Mo Williams apg and assist % before Lebron:[COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] 6.3, 30.0%[/COLOR]
[COLOR="Red"]Mo Williams apg and assist % with[COLOR="White"]...[/COLOR] Lebron:[COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] 4.1, 20.1%[/COLOR]

FYI...

[COLOR="Green"]Pippen apg and assist % with[COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] Jordan 91'-93':[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 6.5, 24.5[/COLOR]
[COLOR="Red"]Pippen apg and assist % w/out Jordan 94'-95':[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 5.4, 23.7[/COLOR]
[COLOR="Green"]Pippen apg and assist % with[COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] Jordan 96'-98':[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 5.8, 25.1[/COLOR]


[COLOR="Blue"]It's amazing - Lebron gets his APG by reducing his teammates' APG!!!!!... It's amazing that people rank him anywhere near Bird or Magic, let alone MJ.
[/COLOR].

[raprap]

I wonder why 3ball doesn't attack kobe. Is kobe not a threat to mj like bron and curry are? Or he likes kobe because he's a second rate mj?

[references]

sweet life champ

[3ball]

Because LeBron >>>>> MJ.

^^^ That isn't why Lebron turns teammates from playmakers into play-finishers - this is:


Lebron and Harden are the only non-point guards in the top 50 for time of possession.. His abnormally high time of possession from the forward position means that he adds a 2nd player with high time of possession to the court IN ADDITION TO THE EXISTING POINT GUARD.. This means his teammates have less time with the ball than other teams, whose forwards have a normal time of possession for forwards.

Along the same lines, starting fives normally have only 1 ball-dominant, low-assisted player that teammates rarely throw assists to - the point guard.. But Lebron's point guard style from the forward position adds a 2nd low-assisted player that teammates can't throw assists to - he turns a normally high assisted forward position into a low assisted one, which lowers the assist capacity of the team relative to other teams whose forwards are highly-assisted.

Lebron's effect of turning teammates from playmakers to play-finishers prevents the kind of equal-opportunity offenses that the the Mavs, Spurs, Warriors, and 90's Bulls used, where all five guys SHARE the playmaking duties more equally.. But in Lebron's case, since his monopolization of the playmaking prevents the best brand of basketball, various equal or less-talented teams have pulled upsets by playing a better brand of basketball (2009, 2011, 2014)..

[aj1987]

LeBron >>>>> MJ.

You finally get it!

[3ball]

I wonder why 3ball doesn't attack kobe. Is kobe not a threat to mj like bron and curry are? Or he likes kobe because he's a second rate mj?

It isn't fun attacking Kobe because he doesn't have as many failures, Finals losses, chokes, beta moments, weaknesses, and his teammates always played great alongside him - Kobe never held any teammate down like Lebron does.

The story was never "oh, the Lakers lost because Kobe's teammates played bad".... When the Lakers lost, KOBE took the blame.

[3ball]

You finally get it!

Indeed, MJ would've won every Finals that Lebron lost..

In 2015 Finals, Lebron took 33 shots per game - this offensive aggression allowed him to control pace and win 2 games.. But he still lost the series because his poor defense made a 7 ppg role player greater than Curry, and his efficiency was horrific despite single-coverage the entire series.. Obviously, MJ would've won the 2015 Finals because he never let a role player like Byron Russell be > Karl Malone and he never shot 39% against single coverage.

Regarding the 2014 Finals - if Lebron could've held Kawhi to 12 ppg on 45% like OKC and DAL, the Heat would've been competitive like those teams were... And we haven't even mentioned his 17 shots per game on offense.. The Heat could've WON the series if Lebron had the same offensive aggressiveness he had in the 2015 Finals, where his 33 shot attempts won 2 games with a worse supporting cast against a better team.. Again, MJ wins this series because he would've held Kawhi to 12 ppg like OKC and DAL did, and he wouldn't hesitate to take 33 shot attempts.

The 2007 Finals were easily winnable - all 4 games were very close and mostly 1-possession games, despite only 22 ppg on 35% from Lebron.. The Cavs had a great defense but they just needed a really great volume scorer.

[aj1987]

Indeed, MJ would've lost every Finals that Lebron played..

Agreed.

[Smoke117]

His logic is amazingly absurd...Lebron is the best player on every team he's been on and should have the ball more than his teammates...that their assist go down is WHAT SHOULD HAPPEN. Using Pippen as an example is just idiotic...of course his assist were higher with Jordan...some of those passes were going to the best player in the world instead of ****ing Pete Myers. Then what happens? The 2nd leading scorer on that 94 team leaves...so yeah I wonder why Pippens assist would go down when he's playing with shittier offensive players.

[24-Inch_Chrome]

Curry > Jordan, 73-9 incoming

[references]

It isn't fun attacking Kobe because he doesn't have as many failures, Finals losses, chokes, beta moments, weaknesses, and his teammates always played great alongside him - Kobe never held any teammate down like Lebron does.

The story was never "oh, the Lakers lost because Kobe's teammates played bad".... When the Lakers lost, KOBE took the blame.

you know what you are? you are that voice inside a paranoid schizophrenic's head but you exist as a human being and the victim of the illness has no clue you exist.

[3ball]

Agreed.

In 2015 Finals, the Cavs won 2 games because Lebron controlled pace by being aggressive offensively (33 shot attempts per game).. But the Cavs still lost the series in part because Lebron had horrific efficiency vs. single coverage and his horrible defense allowed a 7 ppg role player to be > Curry.

Regarding the 2014 Finals - if Lebron could've held Kawhi to 12 ppg on 45% like OKC and DAL, the Heat would've been competitive like those teams were instead of getting blown away... And we haven't even mentioned his 17 shots per game on offense.. The Heat could've WON the series if Lebron had the same offensive aggressiveness he had in the 2015 Finals, where his 33 shot attempts won 2 games with a worse supporting cast against a better team.

The 2007 Finals were easily winnable - all 4 games were very close and mostly 1-possession games, despite only 22 ppg on 35% from Lebron.. The Cavs had a great defense but they just needed a really great volume scorer.