Kobe vs Shaq vs Duncan

[King24]

lol @ the Lakers bring stacked in 09 or 2010

2010: Worst starting PG in the league. Worst offensive starting SF in the league. Horrible bench. No shooting at all (24th in 3PT%). Center putting up 7/5. Yeah, real "stacked".

2009: Again, worst starting PG in league and a horrible bench. Bynum putting 6/4( ) Kobe essentially won that championship with Gasol, who wasn't even top 10 in the league, and Odom/Ariza--a couple of role-players. What has Ariza done since leaving Kobe anyway? Nothing.

Even when they made the Finals in 2008 they were out-rebounded in every game.

Kobe=#1

[jlauber]

[/B]

Right. Which goes to your point about people making wild statements.

I do disagree a little about Duncan....and this is part of my bias. His impact on both ends is simply nothing like I've seen before out of any player other than Hakeem and Jordan. He could absolutely dominate on both ends and on the glass. I value Duncan's defense hugely and its the main reason why I have him so high.

If you stripped Duncan of 2 of his titles, yea, it would probably impact a little where i rank him, but not a ton. I do value titles, but if Duncan had played just as well as he did and lost....meh....hard to really fault him.

Dirk in 09 against the nuggets is a perfect example of this:

Games:
1.28 points 10 boards 4 assists 2 steals 1 block 55% shooting 80%ft....mavs lost by 14

2. 35 points 9 boards 4 assists 55% shooting 92%ft......mavs lost by 12

3. 33 points 16 boards 2 assists 2 blocks 47% shooting 87% ft......mavs lost by 1 on melo buzzer beater

4. 44 points 13 rebounds 3 assists 2 steals 1 block 56% shooting 94% ft....mavs won by 2

5. 32 points 10 boards 7 assists 1 block 53% shooting 100% ft.....mavs lost by 14

That series was not even 2 years ago. Do people remember Dirk playing amazingly well? No, ask anyone about Dirk and the first thing they will say is that he chokes in the playoffs and can't get out of the first round. Yet he dominated the Spurs two years ago and then did the above against a very good defensive team.

Should we fault Dirk for his team clearly not being good enough to win? The Mavs got blown out in 3 of the losses.....I mean, at some point we have to use our brains and realize these games are not played with the same circumstances for each player.

Just gets annoying after a while. We ignore how players play just because they win or lose. I find that notion extremely limited and flawed.

No doubt about it. Just take a look at Garnett's career. He played brilliantly on 30 win teams, and played brilliantly on 66 win championship teams. Basketball is still a TEAM game. And you said it best in another thread...the best players do not start with a level playing field. Some, like Russell, were blessed with as many as SEVEN HOF teammates. Other's like Wilt, carried crappy rosters to within an eyelash of beating Russell's Celtics. And I would rank Duncan's four rings over Kobe's five, too. Oscar had the misfortune to not only be saddled with poor rosters for most of his career, he also had to play in the era of the Celtic Dynasty, Wilt, and the West-Baylor combo.

TEAM success is just ONE area which validates a great player's career.

[rodman91]

Player comparision :
Shaq >>Duncan>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Kobe

Achievements comparision:
Duncan>>>Shaq>Kobe

Current comparision:
Kobe>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Duncan>>>>Shaq

[Anaximandro1]

And, if you took Duncan's TEAM accomplishments away, and his numbers, while certainly amongst the best ever, would drop him further down than many other "great" players.

Duncan has joined Olajuwon,Abdul-Jabbar and Shaq as the only players in NBA history to record at least 20,000 points, 10,000 rebounds, 2,000 blocks and 3,000 assists in a career (Wilt should be up there with them)

We all know that Duncan always saves his best work for the spring.Look at these playoff numbers:

NBA Playoff Leaders for Points

1. Michael Jordan 5987

2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 5762

3. Shaquille O'Neal 5248 (214 GM)

4. Kobe Bryant 5052

5. Karl Malone 4761

6. Jerry West 4457

7. Tim Duncan 3914 (170 GM)

NBA Playoff Leaders for Total Rebounds

1. Bill Russell 4104

2. Wilt Chamberlain* 3913

3. Shaquille O'Neal 2508 (214 GM)

4. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 2481

5. Tim Duncan 2114 (170 GM)

NBA Career Playoff Leaders for Blocks

1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 476

2. Hakeem Olajuwon 472

3. Shaquille O'Neal 459 (214 GM)

4. Tim Duncan 438 (170 GM)

Duncan put up huge numbers consistently during the playoffs against the Lakers,Suns,Mavs ...

1999

Western Conference Semifinals / Spurs 4-0 over Lakers

Duncan averaged 29 pts,10.8 rbs,3.3 as.,2 blk

Finals/ Spurs 4-1 over Knicks

Duncan averaged 27.4 pts,14.1 rbs,2.4 as.,2.2 blk

2001

Western Conference Semifinals / Spurs 4-1 Over Mavs

Duncan averaged 26.8 pts,17.4 rb,3.6 as,2 blk

2002

Western Conference Semifinals / Lakers 4-1 over Spurs

LA was the better team but Duncan averaged 29 pts,17.2 rb,4.6 as,3.2 blk

2003

Western Conference Semifinals / Spurs 4-2 over Lakers

Duncan averaged 28 pts,11.8 rb,4.8 as,1.3 blk

Western Conference Finals / Spurs 4-2 over Mavs

Duncan averaged 28 pts,16.7 rb,5.8 as,3 blk

Finals / Spurs 4-2 over Nets

Duncan averaged 24.2 pts,17.0 rb,5.3 as,5.3 blk

2005

Western Conference Semifinals / Spurs 4-2 over Sonics

Duncan averaged 25.2 pts,10.3 rb,2.5 as,2.5 blk

Western Conference Finals / Spurs 4-1 over Suns

Duncan averaged 27.4 pts,13.8 rb,3.2 as,1.8 blk

2006

Western Conference Finals / Mavs 4-3 over Spurs

Duncan averaged 32.2 pts,11.7 rb,3.7 as,2.6 blk

2007

Western Conference Semifinals / Spurs 4-2 over Suns

Duncan averaged 26.8 pts,13.7 rb,1.1 as,4.1 blk

2008

Western Conference First Round / Spurs 4-1 over Suns

Duncan averaged 24.8 pts,13.8 rb,2.6 as,2.4 blk

Western Conference Finals / Lakers 4-1 over Spurs

Duncan averaged 22.4 pts,17.4 rb,2 blk

[Colby Brian]

NBA Playoff Leaders for Points

1. Michael Jordan 5987

2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 5762

3. Shaquille O'Neal 5248 (214 GM)

4. Kobe Bryant 5052

5. Karl Malone 4761

6. Jerry West 4457

7. Tim Duncan 3914 (170 GM)


Kobe could end up number 1 in the next 3 years

[SCdac]

NBA Playoff Leaders for Points

1. Michael Jordan 5987

2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 5762

3. Shaquille O'Neal 5248 (214 GM)

4. Kobe Bryant 5052

5. Karl Malone 4761

6. Jerry West 4457

7. Tim Duncan 3914 (170 GM)


Kobe could end up number 1 in the next 3 years

yeah, and to get that #, he's taken more 3-point attempts in the playoffs than anyone not named Reggie Miller, and more FGA's than anyone but Jordan and Kareem themselves. The guy is a gunner and has chucked up bad shots in plenty of games, because he played with one of the most dominant players ever. He ranks #193 in career playoff FG%, while Shaq the main guy for LA during the 3-peat is top-5 all time. Point being, it helps to play with a big man who consistently scores more than half the time he shoots the ball, somebody who draws doubles and triple teams, which can be said about Duncan as well (for years people right here on ISH were saying how "Parker and Manu are the product of TD", suddenly now they're portrayed as some kind of perennial top-5 players since they stepped foot on the floor).

[ginobli2311]

yeah, and to get that #, he's taken more 3-point attempts in the playoffs than anyone not named Reggie Miller, and more FGA's than anyone but Jordan and Kareem themselves. The guy is a gunner and has chucked up bad shots in plenty of games, because he played with one of the most dominant players ever. He ranks #193 in career playoff FG%, while Shaq the main guy for LA during the 3-peat is top-5 all time. Point being, it helps to play with a big man who consistently scores more than half the time he shoots the ball, somebody who draws doubles and triple teams, which can be said about Duncan as well (for years people right here on ISH were saying how "Parker and Manu are the product of TD", suddenly now they're portrayed as some kind of perennial top-5 players since they stepped foot on the floor).

44.8% shooting for kobe's career in the playoffs
41.2% shooting for kboe's career in the finals

volume and circumstances are the reasons he's scored so many points in the playoffs.

[rmt]

Reading through this thread I find it amusing that most posters have Duncan in the middle. Those (the majority) have Shaq, TD and Kobe. The Kobe fans have Kobe, TD, Shaq. Almost nobody has it Shaq, Kobe, TD or Kobe, Shaq, TD.

I guess because Shaq and Kobe were on the same team, it kinda dilutes each if one lists them above TD. Or it's peak (Shaq, TD, Kobe) or it's accomplishments (although I don't see how one can say that as of now, Kobe's accomplishments > TD's).

Great Wings> Great Bigs

Bigs can't take-over games in the fourth like wings. They're nowhere the play-makers, nor the scorers. You have a truly great wing and you'll be set for an elite offense (top 6-7). Even with garbage around them. See: 07 & 06 Kobe. 03 T-Mac etc. At that point, all you need is a top 10 defense, which is easily attainable as long as you have a competent coach with a good scheme and players willing to put in effort. You don't even need a particularly good anchor. Just a decent one.

See: 2010 Heat, 2011 Mavs, Those old Bulls teams with Scott Skilles, etc

I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who agrees with you that great wings > great bigs. Look at most people's top 10 GOAT lists, they are littered with big men. There was a thread late last year asking who would you start a franchise with. The vast majority picked great big men (KAJ, Wilt, Shaq, Russell, TD, Hakeem) even surprisingly above MJ. I'd hazard a guess that some would pick DRob, Moses Malone, even KG to start a franchise over Kobe.

Look at the great defensive teams anchored by defensive big men - Spurs (TD and DRob), Pistons (Wallacex2), etc. What exactly have the 06 and 07 Kobe teams, 03 T-Mac team, 2010 Heat and 2011 Mavs won? Nothing.

[Colby Brian]

44.8% shooting for kobe's career in the playoffs
41.2% shooting for kboe's career in the finals

volume and circumstances are the reasons he's scored so many points in the playoffs.

and his 2 rings without shaq are because of his great teammates and not his greatness right?

[ginobli2311]

and his 2 rings without shaq are because of his great teammates and not his greatness right?

nah. kobe is a great player. just a bit over-rated in general. kobe was the best player on the lakers title teams over the last few years. he deserves more credit than any other player for that.

he's just not on the level of duncan or shaq imo in terms of impact or level of play.

just how i feel.

[Colby Brian]

nah. kobe is a great player. just a bit over-rated in general. kobe was the best player on the lakers title teams over the last few years. he deserves more credit than any other player for that.

he's just not on the level of duncan or shaq imo in terms of impact or level of play.

just how i feel.

what if kobe ends up with the mosts points of all time, plus most points in playoffs, and another finals mvp,....would he be above shaq or duncan?
i already have him above duncan, just not above shaq tho

[ginobli2311]

what if kobe ends up with the mosts points of all time, plus most points in playoffs, and another finals mvp,....would he be above shaq or duncan?
i already have him above duncan, just not above shaq tho

you are ranking careers. its different. kobe's career has already been better than shaq and duncan's imo.

but using context and looking at which player was better at playing the game and impacting it.

really not much kobe can do to pass duncan or shaq imo. duncan was just so good on both ends. he provided all time great interior defense and rebounding and was a great offensive post player that required a double or he'd shred you.

kobe just never impacted the game to that extent imo. its why duncan has won his titles with considerably less help than kobe. i just don't see kobe ever winning a title with the kind of teams that duncan had.

i factor in everything when i rank players....i do account for titles and accolades, but i heavily weight the circumstances in which players won or lost and how they played while winning and losing.

and then the last question i ask:

"if i had to pick one of these guys to build a team around for that players best 10 years.....which player would i choose"?

and the answer to that question for me is very difficult between duncan and shaq.....but there is no way in hell i'm taking kobe over either of them. and so when i look at everything...and then factor in my answer to the above question.

it becomes an easy answer for me overall.

[LA_Showtime]

it's already begun. shaq will most likely always stay above kobe, but duncan is already slipping behind and now people are claiming he's always been overrated. smh.