Wilt the Stilt vs Shaq Daddy: Who

[ZenMaster]

Great video. BUT Hey what gives? Shaq didn't get any better offensivley and Wilt said that improvement was the main point by which he would be better than him. nor did he distinguish himself scoring wise from the other top scorers in fact, a point guard and other centers outscored him. Wilt did dunk alot and I'm sure more than Shaq, but he did say he didn't have the mentality to keep at it and force the issue. But so what?

On the same token, Shaq doesn't have the mentality to physical ability to score like some of his contemporaries or 35ppg, 40ppg, 45ppg, 50ppg. Naaaaaa, we are talking scoring, we didn't say from where or how. If D Howard knew how to get the ball to the bottom of the net folks would be off of his back. We are talking makes and consistency. Wilt averaged 40ppg over 7 years. If Shaq scored 40 points that was an outstanding game for him. If Shaq got within 10 points that average in one year that was an outstanding year. Ohhh, I got some mentality arguments.
True! but still, in the end they shot worse than shooters today. With spacing demands either he gets the assist or scores more. His passing was very good. The basket makers weren't. It averages out.

Like I said, this is devoid of skill. Shaq's game was sheer force. And Wilt could have resorted to that and we sometimes see it but by his own admission he used other methods of attack. Wilt's game was still a post game and by far a more versatile, more accomplished and more consistent scorer when he made up his mind to be that. We are talking makes in the end.

Thread title ask who's the greatest power center...

[gts]

power wise, pound for pound shaq is the most powerful center to ever play the game.

first wilt was a marvelous athlete and had hops and speed and footwork, he really was amazing..

but power shaq wins i... how many times did we see shaq in his prime, explode for a slam dunk, not just a quick hop but explode towards the rim, wilt had a grace about him, shaq had violence....

i remember divac hanging on shaqs arm in one of the playoff games trying to draw a foul and shaq takes divac the ball everything to the hoop... amazing power...

[Poochymama]

Lol I'm just here to see ShaqAttack destroy everyone else.

He's been the most logical one here so far. People need to use some context when looking at Wilts stats. Overall, he was most likely a better player than Shaq, but using his super inflated stat padded box scores to prove that is silly.

Wilt would probably be more like a 30/17/4 guy in his prime in today's league.
Career average would probably be more like 26/15/4

Also, defense was not better in the 60's, the lower percentage back then is due to poor shooting, not excellent defense.

And finally, can we stop bringing up these stupid Wilt fairy tales(yes that's what they are). Eye witness accounts don't make them any more credible. Wilt did not bench press 500+ pounds. Having been into weight lifting for the majority of my life, I could maybe see 350 given Wilt's body type, but with those super long arms he'd need a 60+ inch chest to pull off a 500 pound bench. Guys with arms like Wilt's are absolutely HORRIBLE at bench press(doesn't mean they are weak, it just means their body type is terrible for that particular exercise).

Having seen both of these guys, Wilt is obviously the faster of the two, and honestly I never really saw Wilt jump that high, but if I had to put money on who the better jumper was I'd probably go with Wilt.

My verdict? Wilt was the better player, but not by nearly as much as the stats suggest.

[Gotterdammerung]

We have no idea what Wilt's turnover numbers would look like, but I'd bet they'd be quite high considering how much he had the ball. For example, in his 50 ppg season, he took almost 40 shots per game, when you have the ball that much, turnovers are inevitable.

Good point, that turnovers aren't necessarily mishandling the ball alone. Doesn't mean that Wilt turned the ball over as much as he assisted, just because Hakeem and Tim Duncan did. Remember, team defenses weren't allowed to double-team from anywhere as much as they are in Hakeem's and Duncan's time.

Speed? Shaq with the ball on the break. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xREPAcRSpE

Another youtube link. Does that mean Shaq had world class speed? No. he just hustled his butt downcourt. I'm dubbing you the youtube logician.

And what I mean by more explosive is quick moves in the post, alley oops and powering through guys and dunking on them.

That's actually due to the style of the game, what was expected, and what fires up the team & the crowd. Alley oops were rarely performed, for one thing, in the 60's.

What does better hands have to do with explosiveness? And what does endurance have to do with explosiveness?

Obviously, better hands or grip allow you to control the ball better in all facets, and having greater stamina allow you to be constinent ly athletic throughout, but don't let that force you into the sudden realization that athleticism isn't limited to Shaq's power-dunk game.

Why would I re-read your post?

Because you repeated a point I made and you're acting like I never said it.

All of the facts are in mine.

You mistake statistics for facts, or your opinions for facts. You know what I think of statistics, generally? Why I focused on analyzing the game, rather than straight up stats? The residue of stats is mostly superfluous, and something for sportswriters (or homers like you who couldn't discern what really happened during any given game) to hang their stories on.

True analysts of the game understand that the game itself is the only thing that matters. The living, moving moment of actual competition. The continuum of decisions made or skipped that influenced subsequent decisions and non-decisions. When the game's over, it's over. Numbers are after the fact, futile attempts to freeze time and predict the future.

We can throw stats around, but the next level is the actual observation of the player, who they played, how they played versus certain opponents, styles, when they performed the best under adverse situations, and so forth.

Later when I have time I'll break down these assists with examples. Look back at the assist numbers of the premiere centers back then. Duncan, Shaq, Daugherty, Divac, Sabonis ect. didn't need to average 5+ apg for me to know how good they were as passers.

You also gotta put their game in the context of the era as well. When you do that, you'll stop worshipping stats like a homer, as if they transcend the time.

Uh, when you got numerous guys averaging around 20 rpg and you got a guy like Wilt attempting nearly 40 shots per game, pace is a HUGE factor, particularly when a lot the arguments will be based on statss.

Yes, but there's more to the game than stats. Pace factor clearly indicated the style of the game, but there were other factors that you must also include

[ShaqAttack3234]

Great video. BUT Hey what gives? Shaq didn't get any better offensivley and Wilt said that improvement was the main point by which he would be better than him. nor did he distinguish himself scoring wise from the other top scorers in fact, a point guard and other centers outscored him. Wilt did dunk alot and I'm sure more than Shaq, but he did say he didn't have the mentality to keep at it and force the issue. But so what?

Shaq didn't improve from his rookie year offensively? He averaged 23.4 ppg on 56.2% shooting that year. For the next 10 years, he never averaged under 26 ppg, shot as high as 59.9% and his assist numbers doubled while his turnovers decreased.

Shaq didn't distinguish himself as a scorer? He's one of only 4 players in NBA history to win a scoring title and championship in the same season. The others are Jordan, Kareem and Mikan. That shows those weren't empty stats.

He won 2 scoring titles and got to the finals both of those years, was top 2 in scoring 6 times, top 3 eight times and had an additional top 4 finish in '03 and not once in those years did the player who finished ahead of him in those years have a higher FG% or TS%. In fact, some of those years, the players who finished ahead of him weren't even close in FG% and TS%, he averaged 30.5 ppg on an insane 61.2% shooting in the '98 playoffs and had back to back 30+ championship runs. His 38 ppg in the 2000 finals is the most ever by a big man in the finals and I believe he has the second highest scoring average ever in a finals series for a big man with 36+ in '02, his '01 series(vs the DPOY and a top 5 defensive team) may be the 4th because the only other big man I remember with a higher scoring average in the finals is Kareem in '80.

And if that wasn't enough, his prime coincided with the slowest paced time of the shot clock era.

On the same token, Shaq doesn't have the mentality to physical ability to score like some of his contemporaries or 35ppg, 40ppg, 45ppg, 50ppg. Naaaaaa, we are talking scoring, we didn't say from where or how. If D Howard knew how to get the ball to the bottom of the net folks would be off of his back. We are talking makes and consistency. Wilt averaged 40ppg over 7 years. If Shaq scored 40 points that was an outstanding game for him. If Shaq got within 10 points that average in one year that was an outstanding year. Ohhh, I got some mentality arguments.
True! but still, in the end they shot worse than shooters today. With spacing demands either he gets the assist or scores more. His passing was very good. The basket makers weren't. It averages out.

Shaq wasn't playing in an era where he could get 30-40 shots per game. Nor was he playing the entire game, even in blowouts. For example, in 1962, Wilt had a 62 point game and 21 of them came in the 4th quarter. Now you may ask what's the problem, well I'll tell you. Wilt's team was trailing by 31 entering the quarter and Russell didn't even play in the final 5 minutes. I have numerous other examples if you wish to push the issue.

And Dwight Howard can get the ball in the bottom of the net. He just led the league in FG%, he's led his team in scoring 4 consecutive years, he averaged 20+ in the playoffs on 60% shooting while leading his team to the finals and he's average 20+ in 2 seasons on great efficiency.

Like I said, this is devoid of skill. Shaq's game was sheer force. And Wilt could have resorted to that and we sometimes see it but by his own admission he used other methods of attack. Wilt's game was still a post game and by far a more versatile, more accomplished and more consistent scorer when he made up his mind to be that. We are talking makes in the end.

More garbage just begging to be destroyed. Shaq wasn't skilled? Check out his footwork vs Robinson.

This is vs the 4 time DPOY(and the winner that year), a player who made the 9th out of his 10 all-star teams that year and a top 5 defensive team that year.

Great move- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKICLZfKMG0#t=0m10s

Similar move, but just as unstoppable the second time-http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKICLZfKMG0#t=1m21s

Fantastic Olajuwon-esque move to freeze Mutombo- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKICLZfKMG0#t=2m07s

And that's just in the early part of 1 game, I could post many other great moves from this game and others, but I won't waste my time, instead, I'll let someone else do the talking.

Pete Newell, known as a big man guru, a man who coached against Wilt.

"People think it's all power with Shaq, but they're wrong," says 86-year-old Pete Newell, the big-man guru who coached against Wilt and who schooled Shaq at his offseason camp in the early '90s. "Here's what I've seen [O'Neal] do in one game: Bank off the glass. Little lob hook in the paint. Step-back move on the baseline. Quick spin move when he comes out on the other side to shoot. And a neat step-through move when he was doubled or tripled. You go over the history of centers and can you remember anyone, except maybe Hakeem Olajuwon, showing all that? And Hakeem didn't have the power game. I don't like to rate players according to who's best, but none of the great centers had Shaq's moves and counters, and none of them, including Wilt, had his strength."

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/ins...06/12/insider/

But yeah, he's not skilled.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Another youtube link. Does that mean Shaq had world class speed? No. he just hustled his butt downcourt. I'm dubbing you the youtube logician.

That's not nearly the only time Shaq outran everyone downcourt, and doing it with the ball is phenomenal for a center, much less a center as big as Shaq. And it's much, much better than you posting claims without footage to back it up.

Obviously, better hands or grip allow you to control the ball better in all facets, and having greater stamina allow you to be constinent ly athletic throughout, but don't let that force you into the sudden realization that athleticism isn't limited to Shaq's power-dunk game.

Who said athleticism is limited to power dunks? What about quick spin moves and advanced footwork all at 7'1", 340? Moves, the caliber of which I've never seen from Wilt even highlight mixes were done by Shaq on a regular basis in his prime.

You mistake statistics for facts, or your opinions for facts. You know what I think of statistics, generally? Why I focused on analyzing the game, rather than straight up stats? The residue of stats is mostly superfluous, and something for sportswriters (or homers like you who couldn't discern what really happened during any given game) to hang their stories on.

True analysts of the game understand that the game itself is the only thing that matters. The living, moving moment of actual competition. The continuum of decisions made or skipped that influenced subsequent decisions and non-decisions. When the game's over, it's over. Numbers are after the fact, futile attempts to freeze time and predict the future.

I've watched all of the game footage available of Wilt and the footage makes him look A LOT worse compared to the stats. I posted a thread with detailed analysis of the '67 game that's available and posted his strengths and weaknesses in the video, not just one or the other.

We can throw stats around, but the next level is the actual observation of the player, who they played, how they played versus certain opponents, styles, when they performed the best under adverse situations, and so forth.

Under adverse situations? You mean the playoffs? Well, we know who wins there, the guy with 4 rings(and no, I'm not just basing my argument on rings)

You also gotta put their game in the context of the era as well. When you do that, you'll stop worshipping stats like a homer, as if they transcend the time.

Yet you're the one bringing up assist/turnover stats.

Yes, but there's more to the game than stats. Pace factor clearly indicated the style of the game, but there were other factors that you must also include – 3 pointers, talent pool, level of competition, rules, coaching tendencies, & so forth. That's why I don't think pace factor is a transcendental statistic that easily translates the stats of one player in one era into another's. Unless they're in the same time period, pace factor is practically useless – unless you're a shaq fan fighting a lost cause. :

I didn't try estimating what Wilt's stats would look like, I'm saying that those using stats to argue for Wilt have to factor in several things which helped players put up better stats back then.

No, there's more to it, but I'm afraid you don't have the courage to admit it.

Nope, he played 2 different styles when each coach asked him to play each style.

[Rendezvous32]

In a Power Scale from 1-10.

Shaq's power level was a 9, while Wilt's power level was 9,000,000

[PHILA]

In a Power Scale from 1-10.

Shaq's power level was a 9, while Wilt's power level was 9,000,000

Is Aaron Brooks still a racist for not passing enough to Yao?

[Rendezvous32]

Is Aaron Brooks still a racist for not passing enough to Yao?

Hilarious, I'm on your side and you are calling me out for something I said two years ago.

[jlauber]

Using the OP, I concede that Shaq was more of a POWER center. And I don't diminish Shaq for that, either. If anything, IMHO, Jackson should have taken advantage of Shaq's power MORE than he did.

And, while even Wilt admitted that he didn't use his massive strength and power to near the advantage that Shaq did, it must be noted that, IMHO, the NBA would never have allowed it either. The league was constantly putting in rules in an attempt to prevent Wilt from making a complete mockery of the game.

Also, defense was not better in the 60's, the lower percentage back then is due to poor shooting, not excellent defense.

So, almost every player in the league IMPROVED, some dramatically, in their shooting? My god, Thurmond had seasons of .395 and Reed had seasons of .432 in the mid-60's. I mentioned Havlicek, as well. Seasons of .399, .402, and .405 in the early to mid-60's, and then some eight seasons better than his BEST year in the 60's, in the 70's and in years past his prime. And why could Kareem shoot nearly 60% in the 80's, including some monster games against Hakeem, and yet have years of .539, .529, .518, and .513 in his PRIME? AND, then shoot MUCH worse against the likes of Wilt and Thurmond... even as low as .405??? C'mon. In Wilt's "scoring" seasons the NBA shot .410, .415, .426, .441, .433, and .433...and even in his other year's the league shot around .440 to .450. You can't tell me that virtually EVERY player became much better shooters throughout their careers, even at the tail-end of them.

Of course, aside from the fact that Wilt was shooting much more from the outside, he still shot anywhere from .506 to .540. Those were his worst seasons (other than his rookie year, in which he shot .461 in a league that shot .410.) Those percentages compare favorably with Olajuwon and Robinson's BEST seasons...and Wilt was shooting the ball far more often. And NO ONE could come close to Wilt in his "efficient" seasons, even without era or pace. And when you include league average...he simply blows everyone else completelty away.

On top of all of that, Wilt was seldom played one-on-one. Even the great Bill Russell had to have help...

http://www.nba.com/history/players/chamberlain_bio.html

[COLOR="DarkRed"]"In Chamberlain's first year, and for several years afterward, opposing teams simply didn't know how to handle him. Tom Heinsohn, the great Celtics forward who later became a coach and broadcaster, said Boston was one of the first clubs to apply a team-defense concept to stop Chamberlain. "We went for his weakness," Heinsohn told the Philadelphia Daily News in 1991, "tried to send him to the foul line, and in doing that he took the most brutal pounding of any player ever.. I hear people today talk about hard fouls. Half the fouls against him were hard fouls."[/COLOR]


Once again, I have been one of Shaq's biggest supporters on this forum. IMHO, at his peak, he was CLEARLY the best player of his era (sorry Duncan, Robinson, Garnett, Olajuwon, and Kobe.) And, at his best, he was nearly the equal of Wilt. In some aspects, he was superior. But, overall, I just don't see the total impact that Wilt had on the game.

[gts]

Hilarious, I'm on your side and you are calling me out for something I said two years ago.

RG, i think he's actually trying to engage folks with real discussion... something you'd know nothing about but should probably think about trying once in your life before you die

[PHILA]

http://www.megavideo.com/?d=W40Y3RI9



* 2:53 mark one can see him offensive rebound then

*Note the power move at 0:25 with the finger roll (which may have went in had he enjoyed the luxury of playing on a stable basket with modern rims as opposed to the Boston Garden upper deck fans moving the basket by shaking the guide wire as an opponent shot). This is without the other luxury of using his shoulder as a hammer to gain an advantage.





"If Shaq has been chosen as the team leader then he need to do it more by example. He needs to get down the court and play defense instead of cherry picking by the basket for all those dunks. Too often the other team is on offense and Shaq is not even at half court. Everybody talks about his points when we should be looking closer at his rebounds and blocked shots and defense."

-1999




The Spokesman-Review - May 12, 1997

'Figuratively speaking, Shaquille O'Neal said he used to look up to Wilt Chamberlain. Not any more. O'Neal was apprised of comments Chamberlain made about him last week on ESPN's "Up Close," and responded with some harsh words of his own.

"Wilt Chamberlain was a great player," O'Neal said, "Give him his respect. But Wilt Chamberlain can kiss my ass."

The former Lakers center, appearing on the show to promote his new book, said Bullets center Gheorge Muresan may have more to offer as a player than O'Neal.

"As they call fouls today," Chamberlain said, "Shaq gets away with what I consider murder. I mean, I would think when you dip your shoulder and run over the top of the guy, and the foul is called on the guy who's laying on the floor, you're getting away with something. So Shaq is allowed to score some points that maybe he wouldn't (otherwise) get."

"But if you made it a straight-up situation, and gave the same rules and regulations to Shaq that you give to Gheorge Muresan.... Muresan has a better touch around the basket, he can score more points."

O'Neal said he didn't see the show, but when asked if he had, he replied: "Was Wilt doggin' me again?"

"I'd average 85 on Wilt, then and now," O'Neal said. "I thought certain people were mentors. I'm glad I know who my real friends are."



*Yeah. The referees.'

I've watched all of the game footage available of Wilt and the footage makes him look A LOT worse compared to the stats. I posted a thread with detailed analysis of the '67 game that's available and posted his strengths and weaknesses in the video, not just one or the other.

What about quick spin moves and advanced footwork all at 7'1", 340? Moves, the caliber of which I've never seen from Wilt even highlight mixes were done by Shaq on a regular basis in his prime.

The entire team was lethargic in that 2nd half. Of course had they played great the NBA wouldn't have released it. From such a brief sample anyone can look unimpressive in the pivot by your apparent standards like this fat stiff or this skinny twig.

Chamberlain's baseline spin move that many attribute to Shaq was at least as good. His finger roll shot was the best in league history from the position and while his footwork was exceptional if need be, performing moves that I have never seen from any other great center, even a nice fake move never before seen from most other top post players as well as a fake pass quick baseline spin. O'Neal indeed was quicker on his feet at his size and Jabbar more graceful as his step move into the hooking motion is more aesthetically pleasing to most people than Wilt Chamberlain's footwork. Here what appears to be a rebound drop step into the middle with a fake pass and lay-in. He also had the best power one-dribble move in NBA dribble.


Was Pat Ewing a better offensive big man the Wilt or Kareem?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTOpaODzRfY#t=2m10s

Or perhaps Hakeem Olajuwon?


I understand the fascination with post moves and what not as well as the ranking players based on the assumption of how great they'd be today. A nice thought indeed, but a player can only be judged against his own competition. What makes today's league the standard? It may be worst in NBA history as far as pivot play is concerned. Ten years ago when folks were bitching about the lack of great centers against Shaq I don't think they ever dreamed it would get this bad.

[Poochymama]

Once again, I have been one of Shaq's biggest supporters on this forum. IMHO, at his peak, he was CLEARLY the best player of his era (sorry Duncan, Robinson, Garnett, Olajuwon, and Kobe.) And, at his best, he was nearly the equal of Wilt. In some aspects, he was superior. But, overall, I just don't see the total impact that Wilt had on the game.

I do agree that Wilt, overall, was a better player than Shaq, but not by much(as the stats would suggest). I think we are somewhat in agreement about this.

However, even though I was quite young when Wilt was playing, and I didn't get to see all of his games, from what I remember and videos I have seen, the shooting techniques back then were a notch below what they are now. You saw WAY more missed shots(often the shooter was wide open). It is odd that % for many players increased over the years, but I think that has more to do with the league expanding so much(because of guys like Wilt/Russell), and the knowledge of shooting/scoring techniques that comes with said expansion.

While the elite players of the 60s seemed just as good as the elite players of today, the average players were noticeably worse. Ball handling skills were atrocious, most people could only dribble with one hand, athleticism was quite a bit worse, and there were just a LOT of terrible shooters who seemed to miss wide open shots. Watching Wilt play seemed like watching a superstar play with a bunch of College kids. Take any modern superstar(Jordan, Shaq, Kobe, Lebron) and drop them into the 1960's league and they'll most likely produce Wilt like numbers. Drop Wilt in todays league and his numbers would drop significantly, he'd probably produce very similar numbers to a guy like Shaq(probably about equal in scoring, but a bit better in everything else), but he certainly wouldn't be scoring 50 points a game.

[jlauber]

Shaq wasn't playing in an era where he could get 30-40 shots per game. Nor was he playing the entire game, even in blowouts. For example, in 1962, Wilt had a 62 point game and 21 of them came in the 4th quarter. Now you may ask what's the problem, well I'll tell you. Wilt's team was trailing by 31 entering the quarter and Russell didn't even play in the final 5 minutes. I have numerous other examples if you wish to push the issue.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...003060LAC.html

How about playing 45 minutes in a 123-103 rout of the hapless Clippers. In the process he hung a 61 point, 23 rebound game on the likes of Olawakandi and Chilcutt. Meanwhile, Wilt scores 41 points against Russell in three quarters, and down by 31 points (in game in which he shot 27-45 BTW). He finishes with 62 in a nine point loss.

I guess running up stats against two of the worst centers of the 00's, in a complete blowout, LATE in the season, is NOT "stats-padding"?

Just another double-standard...

[ILLsmak]

[QUOTE=ShaqAttack3234
Why would I re-read your post? All of the facts are in mine.
[/QUOTE]

loooooool.

On forums everywhere people forget about Shaq and how good he was. I didn't somehow become a Shaq fan because I am in love with Shaq's sex appeal... it was his style as a basketball player.

I mean, you can probably search my post history and find more that I said about Shaq... I've come up with all angles, but nobody really wanted to bend or listen.

The truth is the truth... pulling out someone like Wilt and comparing him to Shaq is a pretty huge compliment, but you are doing it because you want to discredit Shaq... which makes no sense.

-Smak