Wilt the Stilt vs Shaq Daddy: Who

[New York Knicks]

Teams averaged 70+ RPG in Wilt's era. So let's get that out of the way. Teams in the last several years averaged 40+ RPG.

[PHILA]

As far as passing? Wilt in his later career may have been a bit better, but I wouldn't go by the numbers.

He may have been a bit better?

What a shame.

Go watch some 60's footage and you'll see that big men also collected assists with a simple pass back to a perimeter player for a mid-range jumper that wasn't really contested that's how Russell also averaged around 6 per game.

He did not enjoy nearly the same spacing O'Neal did as there was no 3 point line, there were players constantly cutting off him circa Walton with the Blazers. As for Bill Russell, he started at the top of the circle as a playmaker and believe it or not, Russell was actually an outstanding passer in the half court or in transition for the outlet. He had no trouble at all finding cutters, etc. For one who ******* about how underrated O'Neal and Jabbar's passing skills were, you are doing the same thing with the top 2 players in NBA history.

[Pointguard]

For all basketball purposes Shaq seemed more powerful. Not sure who could bench more, but it's important to note that Wilt even said when Shaq was a rookie that he wished he played like Shaq and opposing players thought Wilt let them off the hook by shooting fadeaways. Who knows if Wilt could've overpowered players like Shaq consistently, but he didn't, apparently due to a Goliath complex.

In all honesty if they let Wilt barrell over other players like they let Shaq, he would have had a 130 point game. Red Aurabauch had too much power over the league to let that happen.

Ball handling? No contest it's Shaq. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwO-pJowU84#t=1m57s

This we don't know because of limited Wilt tapes. Sidebar: I read that Dwight Howard played the point in HS but now he dribbles like he's challenged. Go figure.

As far as post moves? Shaq's jump hook, turnaround one-hander, spin move, drop step and up and under(which he usually finished with a power dunk) made him a more deadly offensive player despite the numbers. Not sure who was more athletic, but based on the footage available, Shaq was easily the more explosive player.

Athletic we are talking about speed, jumping, agility, body stretch, flexibility, ability to do different things on the floor, explosion to jump quick (as in rebounds and block shots)coordination and endurance - All of which I give to Wilt. I give Shaq quickness with the ball going to the hoop and happy feet. Plus I give Shaq power of weight.

As far as scoring was concerned, Wilt had a Duncan backboard shot and a superior inside game. Shaq mainly powered his way in, to the point that contemporaries were saying that he had no skill. To score 50 ppg without the power game truely in effect, you have to be super resourceful. He had hook shots, dips, spins, fadeaways, pivot rotations, up and unders, jumpshot out to 17ft. If they told Shaq he couldn't bull doze his way in he would be a below average player. If Wilt was allowed to bulldoze he would have been a better player.

As far as passing? Wilt in his later career may have been a bit better, but I wouldn't go by the numbers. Go watch some 60's footage and you'll see that big men also collected assists with a simple pass back to a perimeter player for a mid-range jumper that wasn't really contested that's how Russell also averaged around 6 per game.

but do factor in that those guys on some of Wilt's teams really, really coulnd't shoot. Below you will Wilt hitting side cutters and second cutters, etc. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Knv-KbA8AQ

The difference isn't nearly what the numbers suggest, but Wilt has the edge in rebounding.

Shaq didn't apply himself in that way. He simply didn't go after rebounds like Wilt did and definitely doesn't show the determination to get into good position. Wilt just wouldn't let guys like KG and Rodman get position like that all the time. Very different if Shaq was the man rebounding in his prime. He never was.

Also important to note that the pace and minutes stars played in Wilt's era gives him a huge advantage in statistics. For example, the Warriors pace factor was 129.7 in 1962, Shaq's Lakers pace factor was generally in the low 90s.

No way could Shaq have maintained that pace. Which is why I say after half time Wilt is the more powerful player. Yet somehow Shaq couldn't multitask and go after blocks, rebounds or loose balls.

[PHILA]

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x48zv5

Note the 2 fake passes at 4:30, where after following a power move to the basket, he draws 4 defenders leaving Billy C wide open in in front of them rim.




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xTRjFYwF_RQ#t=2m55s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kocq3D4zd-U#t=5m14s

These videos will show that his assists did not come merely from passing the ball back out to an open shooter. That would actually be a better argument against O'Neal.




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJACRMc-Qps

Bill Russell passing behind his head to a cutter at the 0:03 mark.

[PHILA]

Russell sends back this "great" go to move here as well. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHXG3koetzA#t=2m06s

To any man with functional eyes, that was an obvious slam dunk attempt.

[ashlar]

Wilt was great in his time but prime shaq would shit on him so hard. PHILA is the shittiest gimmick on ISH.

[ShaqAttack3234]

at all of these arguments. Blaming the refs? Tommy Heinsohn mentioned how happy he was when Wilt would take the fadeaway because he was letting them off the hook. He didn't have Shaq's mentality, he admitted that in 1993.

And who said all of his passes came from passing to open shooters? I said that's how he got a lot of them. Anyone who thinks he's approaching those assist numbers in the 90's or 00's needs to take their heads out of their asses. In the limited 60's footage available, you can see them throw the ball into the post and throw it back to the shooter with horrible perimeter defense.

Wilt was a great passer later in his career(don't know about early, can't comment either way), and again, I'd probably give him an edge over Shaq, but assist numbers mean very little, particularly comparing across eras.

And at Wilt having a superior inside game to Shaq. The comedy in this thread is great. Nobody in NBA history had a great inside game than Shaq. Shaq's game was inside of 8-10 feet and nobody could stop him from getting that close and once he was, particularly if it was single coverage or a weak double team, it was over.

And if that was a dunk attempt by Wilt then I have to question why in the world he went up that weak, it looked like he was going up underhanded.

And Shaq was one of the best rebounders of his era, not as good as Wilt, but damn good in his own right. He outrebounded Duncan in 4 of the 5 playoff series they met, he outrebounded Garnett with KG at his peak and Shaq past his in 2004, he basically matched KG's 15.7 rpg with 15.3 of his own in the 2003 series, he crushed Mutombo on the boards in the 2001 finals and Mutombo led the league that year and he crushed another good rebounder Dale Davis on the boards in the 2000 finals. Shaq also outrebounded Olajuwon in the '95 finals.

As far as jumping ability, what do you base Wilt having a higher vertical on? In the footage available, I have yet to see him demonstrate more or even equal jumping ability in the footage available so that's just speculation.

[magnax1]

I'm not really sure calling Wilt a power center is a fair assessment of his game. Yeah, he was huge and could bully people in the post, but the key word is could. He didn't really play that way all that often, and he could be bated into playing a more finesse type game. Thats not to say he played like that all the time, but he definitely did when he got more then 3 fouls to quickly, because he was afraid he'd ruin his record of never fouling out.
Anyway, basically what I'm saying is that Shaq usually played a physically dominating game, where Wilt sort of played both. When Wilt did try to push someone around and just get to the basket, he was probably just as good though, maybe a bit more because he could score more efficiently from farther out.

[PHILA]

The '67 team from top to bottom in the 1980's with the lax assist rules could have seen Chamberlain averaging 10+ per ball game. This being he averaged 8 when the rules were much more strictly governed.


For instance, this pass from Chamberlain to the Big O would not count as an assist in the 60's, since O put the ball on the floor rather than going straight up with the shot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ecgwZVnvPIc#t=0m35s

[catch24]

I have Wilt ahead of Shaq all time. Who knows what would of happened if a Finals MVP was rewarded then. Maybe he'd of played better in the postseason lol.

[ZenMaster]

I'm not really sure calling Wilt a power center is a fair assessment of his game. Yeah, he was huge and could bully people in the post, but the key word is could. He didn't really play that way all that often, and he could be bated into playing a more finesse type game. Thats not to say he played like that all the time, but he definitely did when he got more then 3 fouls to quickly, because he was afraid he'd ruin his record of never fouling out.
Anyway, basically what I'm saying is that Shaq usually played a physically dominating game, where Wilt sort of played both. When Wilt did try to push someone around and just get to the basket, he was probably just as good though, maybe a bit more because he could score more efficiently from farther out.

Pretty much this.

Wilt said it himself: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vW17rCSeWLo#t=04m50s

[PHILA]

And if that was a dunk attempt by Wilt then I have to question why in the world he went up that weak, it looked like he was going up underhanded.

Unfortunately few can palm the basketball like Chamberlain could as seen below.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ycO_MYuF89k#t=7m08s

Bill Russell made a terrific defensive play.

[jlauber]

Teams averaged 70+ RPG in Wilt's era. So let's get that out of the way. Teams in the last several years averaged 40+ RPG.

TEAM rebounds were counted in the team totals during Wilt's era. In fact, they were removed AFTER Wilt's last season. For instance, in Wilt's 66-67 season (24.2 rpg in 45 mpg), the 76ers averaged 62 rpg. In Wilt's 60-61 season the Warriors averaged 66 rpg (27.2 rpg in 47 mpg.) Wilt's pathetic 62-63 Warrior team "only" averaged 58 rpg, and Wilt had 24.6 rpg of them.

Even more inciredible, though, was Chamberlain's POST-SEASON rebounding. He had entire post-seasons of over 30 rpg, and he had series of as much as 32 (against Russell no less.) For example, in the 66-67 ECF's, and against Russell, Wilt had games of 32 rebounds, out of a TOTAL of 120; 36 rebounds out of a TOTAL of 128, and a staggering 41 out of a TOTAL of 134. BTW, in those three games, Russell had 15, 21, and 29 respectively.


Fatal9, of course, jumped in when I made the comment that defenses were much tougher in the Chamberlain era. I stated that the league averages during Wilt's 14 seasons went from a low of .410 to a high of .456. In addition, they slowly went up, but they had dips in the middle of the decade of the 60's. Meanwhile, in Shaq's career, the league average went from a low of .437 to a high of .473. HOWEVER, the 3 point shot was in full swing by that time, so the logical assumption has to be that those league averages in Shaq's era, which were already considerably higher than in Wilt's era, were even HIGHER still, when you factor in how much the 3 pt shot affected the league average.

Continuing...take a look at some of the great players of the 60's who also played into the 70's. Almost to a man their FG% went up in the 70's. And for the few that had higher FG% seasons in the 60's, it was almost universally in the late 60's, like 68-69 or 69-70. Here are some examples:

Rick Barry. He shot .439 in his 65-66 season, and .451 in his best scoring season in 66-67. In his 30 ppg season in 74-75 he shot .464, and he had FIVE seasons in the 70's that were better than his BEST NBA season in the 60's.

John Havlicek. His BEST season in the 60's was .445 (his rookie year BTW.) He had SEASONS of .399, .401, and .405 in the 60's. In the 70's, ALL NINE of his seasons were BETTER than his BEST season in the 60's, with a high of .464.

Elvin Hayes. True, he only played one season in the 60's, but he averaged 28.4 ppg on .447 shooting. In the decade of the 70's he EIGHT seasons that were better than his season in the 60's, with a high of .501 while scoring 23.7 ppg.

Walt Bellamy. He is an interesting pick. He came into the league as a highly efficient shooter. He averaged 31.6 ppg on .519 in his rookie season in 61-62. He consistently shot over 50% in his entire career. In his 67-68 he shot .541. But he would top that with a .545 in 71-72, and near the end of his career.

Jerry West. West is one of the players who did have his highest season in the 60's, with a .514 in 67-68, but his early seasons in that decade were .419, .445, and .464. He also had his second best season in the 70's, in 70-71 with a .497 mark.

Jerry Lucas. He was another oddity. In his rookie year in 63-64, he led the league at .527. However, he tapered off for a few seasons, with seasons of .453 and .459, and reached his peak in 68-69 at .551. However, he shot very well in the 70's, as well, with seasons of .513, .512, and .507. And he was almost exclusively a long range shooter in the 70's. In any case, his best season was in the LATE 60's.

Oscar Robertson. He was another player with his best season in the 60's, with a .518 in 62-63 (just a fantastic season BTW.) However, his second best season was late in his career, in 69-70, when shot .511. He also had his 4th best season in 70-71 with a .496.

I'm sure you can find many more examples, and probably some are the exception, but the evidence is OVERWHELMING that teams and players shot much better in the late 60's and even better into the 70's.

Then, take a look at the teams and players that went from the 70's into the 80's. HUGE jumps in FG%. There were TEAMS, even crappy ones, that were shooting over 50% in the 80's. ENTIRE leagues were shooting .490. Interesting, too, was that players like Dantley, Gilmore, and Gervin, who had played several seasons in the 70's, EXPLODED in the 80's, with HUGE FG% seasons. Clearly, there was NO defense played in the 80's.

Back to the 60's, though. Let's use Kareem as an example. He entered the league in 69-70 and shot .518 in his rookie year. He had a couple of seasons of .579, .577. and .574 in the 70's, and at his PEAK. He also had seasons in the 70's of .539, .529, and .513 in the middle of the 70's, and probably in his physical prime. Then came the 80's. In the first EIGHT seasons of the decade of the 80's, he shot .564, or BETTER. His career HIGH of .604 came in the 80's, and his second best season, at .599 came at age 37 in the mid-80's. He had FOUR seasons in the 80's that were better than his best in the 70's. His only two subpar seasons of the 80's came in his last two seasons, and at ages 40 and 41 (.532 and .475.)

Furthermore, and as I have stated many times now...Kareem STRUGGLED mightily against Thurmond and Wilt in their H2H meetings. In their three post-seasons in the early 70's, Thurmond held Kareem to series of .486, .405 (yes, .405!), and .428. He even outscored and outshot Kareem in the 71-72 playoffs. Meanwhile, as I mentioned earlier in this thread, Wilt held Kareem to .464 shooting in their 28 H2H meetings. And Kareem only shot 50%, or better, in TEN of those 28 games. Not only that, but in the last four pivotal games of the 71-72 WCF's, Wilt held Kareem to a .414 FG%, and was swatting 5-6 skyhooks per game. In Wilt's last season, in 72-73, he outshot Kareem from the field in their six H2H games by a .637 to ,450 margin. Overall, in their last ten H2H meetings, Chamberlain held Kareem to .434 shooting.

Now, neither Wilt, nor Nate, were anywhere close to their primes, while Kareem was in his statistical PRIME in those years. Furthermore, Kareem did not face the great Bill Russell, either. One can only wonder what a PRIME Chamberlain would have done toi Kareem.

All of which is made even more interesting, when you factor in that Kareem poured in games of 35, 42, and 46 on Hakeem in the 85-86 season. Here was a 39 year-old Kareem dominating an up-and-coming Olajuwon.

So, when you look at Wilt's early seasons, in which he was "only" shooting .510 to .540...he was doing so against MUCH stiffer defenses. His numbers against the LEAGUE AVERAGE were astonishing. Of course, in the PRIME of his career, in the mid-60's, he just CRUSHED the league average. In his 66-67 season, he shot .683, and beat out his nearest competitor, Bellamy, by a STILL record differential of .162 (Bellamy shot .521.) AND, he outshot the LEAGUE AVERAGE by an eye-popping .244 margin...which is second only to his 72-73 season, in which his .727 outshot the league average of .456 by an ungodly .271 differential (he also outshot his nearest competitor by .157 that season BTW.) Those marks are just SO FAR ahead of ANYONE else in NBA history.

So, keep all of that in mind when you look at these "efficiency" marks.

[Papaya Petee]

Lol I'm just here to see ShaqAttack destroy everyone else.

[Pointguard]

at all of these arguments. Blaming the refs? Tommy Heinsohn mentioned how happy he was when Wilt would take the fadeaway because he was letting them off the hook. He didn't have Shaq's mentality, he admitted that in 1993.

Great video. BUT Hey what gives? Shaq didn't get any better offensivley and Wilt said that improvement was the main point by which he would be better than him. nor did he distinguish himself scoring wise from the other top scorers in fact, a point guard and other centers outscored him. Wilt did dunk alot and I'm sure more than Shaq, but he did say he didn't have the mentality to keep at it and force the issue. But so what?

On the same token, Shaq doesn't have the mentality to physical ability to score like some of his contemporaries or 35ppg, 40ppg, 45ppg, 50ppg. Naaaaaa, we are talking scoring, we didn't say from where or how. If D Howard knew how to get the ball to the bottom of the net folks would be off of his back. We are talking makes and consistency. Wilt averaged 40ppg over 7 years. If Shaq scored 40 points that was an outstanding game for him. If Shaq got within 10 points that average in one year that was an outstanding year. Ohhh, I got some mentality arguments.

And who said all of his passes came from passing to open shooters? I said that's how he got a lot of them. Anyone who thinks he's approaching those assist numbers in the 90's or 00's needs to take their heads out of their asses. In the limited 60's footage available, you can see them throw the ball into the post and throw it back to the shooter with horrible perimeter defense.

True! but still, in the end they shot worse than shooters today. With spacing demands either he gets the assist or scores more. His passing was very good. The basket makers weren't. It averages out.

And at Wilt having a superior inside game to Shaq. The comedy in this thread is great. Nobody in NBA history had a great inside game than Shaq. Shaq's game was inside of 8-10 feet and nobody could stop him from getting that close and once he was, particularly if it was single coverage or a weak double team, it was over.

Like I said, this is devoid of skill. Shaq's game was sheer force. And Wilt could have resorted to that and we sometimes see it but by his own admission he used other methods of attack. Wilt's game was still a post game and by far a more versatile, more accomplished and more consistent scorer when he made up his mind to be that. We are talking makes in the end.