All Time Draft Round 1 Western Conference 2vs15 and 7vs10

[wally_world]

1. His best player consistently got locked down by the guy I'll have guarding him. To the tune of a career 36/17 shooting percentage against him with 3.7 topg and only 16.0 ppg. This hurts his playmaking argument a lot because his best playmaker is neutered.

Funny how you talk about PLAYMAKING but leave out the 9.4 assists Isiah racks up? Also, the version of Isiah I picked was playing before Mookie was even drafted. Most of those stats were with an old and ailing Isiah and Mook entering his prime. Our players are year specific, not career.

2. This is a piggyback on point 1, but I'll reiterate it here. We've both have outstanding defensive teams. The difference is my team specifically matches up well with his best scorers. My one defensive weakness hypothetically would be a team with 2 burly post scorers who can both shoot enough/are athletic enough to play together and keep the floor spaced but allow one of them to use his strength to overpower Davis. He doesn't have that. On the other hand his one defensive weakness is a big wing scorer who can both shoot and drive. I happen to have literally the worst matchup for his defense in the whole draft in Durant.

If you're gonna completely ignore all the points i brought up on how physical/grounded defenders who can keep KD on the perimeter (Xavier McDaniel) will keep him in check, then alright, you're absolutely right lol.

No the difference is, when your defense sets in on my key players, we rely on great passing in the TEAM and high basketball IQ to make plays. When my defense sets in on KD and DRob, your team has no other playmakers. The offense completely shuts down.

3. Shooting. Quite simply I have a ton of it and he has none. This is a huge problem and one that also puts a damper on his playmaking. I don't think it's outlandish to say that I have the best combination of length and athleticism in the draft. You know what that combination does? It makes every inch of space count on offense. Even if his great playmaker(he really only has one despite his decision to include dumars and Clyde) create small openings, he doesn't have the shooters to take advantage of it. I do.

If Dumars/Drexler aren't considered great playmakers, then I think it is safe to say your team has absolutely no great playmakers. Don't leave out Russell too. That's 4 high IQ willing passers who could initiate the offense.

My shooters tho not great, are perfectly capable for filling their roles. Dumars/Drexler/Laimbeer can all hit the 3 (we'll leave that up to the voters to agree/disagree upon). You can have all the great shooting in the world, but what's the point when you don't have the creators to get them the ball?

[wally_world]

Had Wally drafted a legitimate power forward, like Pettit or the young Spencer Haywood or Elvin Hayes, he would match up better with Raider Fan. Instead he has to try and start both Yao and Russell. Then try to justify their roles at the risk of compromising his team.

As if Bill Russell can't play center.

Raiderfan over Wally.

I'll hold off on the other matchup.

If you read any of my arguments you'd know I'm starting Laimbeer over Yao (who will see 14mpg this series) this matchup. I strongly urge you to read through the points being brought up.

Funny thing is, I haven't once talk about justifying either Russell's or Yao's role when playing with each other.

[raiderfan19]

How are you counting Clyde and Russell as initiators and then saying I lack distributors??? You realize kd and drob at least equal them as passers/creators right???

[wally_world]

How are you counting Clyde and Russell as initiators and then saying I lack distributors??? You realize kd and drob at least equal them as passers/creators right???

I quote what i said "When my defense sets in on KD and DRob, your team has no other playmakers."

[Gotterdammerung]

If you read any of my arguments you'd know I'm starting Laimbeer over Yao (who will see 14mpg this series) this matchup. I strongly urge you to read through the points being brought up.

Funny thing is, I haven't once talk about justifying either Russell's or Yao's role when playing with each other.

Still doesn't address the problem.
Bill Laimbeer was a center. The Pistons surrounded him with legitimate power forwards like Mahorn and Edwards. A legitimate power forward that can score is more use to your team than another center unless you were facing a team starting two centers. As it is, your lack of flexibility is intractable.

[wally_world]

Still doesn't address the problem.
Bill Laimbeer was a center. The Pistons surrounded him with legitimate power forwards like Mahorn and Edwards. A legitimate power forward that can score is more use to your team than another center unless you were facing a team starting two centers. As it is, your lack of flexibility is intractable.

Not that it really matters, but how were Mahorn and especially Edwards not Centers? Laimbeer always played the role of a PF offensively on those Piston teams (unless Salley is in the game).

What exactly is the "problem"? Too crowded in the paint? Laimbeer always roamed the perimeter on offense, and Russell works in the high post. Lack of versatility defensively? Russell quick enough to guard PFs, Laimbeer not immobile from the paint as well. What flexibility do I need? I truly believe Russell/Laimbeer/Yao cover all I need from the big men positions.

Sure a true PF like a Pettit could help my team more, but is that a big enough reason for my team to drop this matchup?

[Juges8932]

I choose Random Guy in the first matchup. I like both teams a lot, but I really like RG's make up. You've got freaking Curry and Miller on the perimeter, with Gasol's versatility to stretch the floor, post up, or pass. The lanes LBJ would have to drive down to create, finish, or do whatever he wanted to would be so big you could drive a bus through there. Dwight is pretty worthless offensively and going against Kareem would not help, but with the floor spaced so much and LBJ driving, he would get set up for some easy baskets I would imagine. I probably like Kurple's depth better overall and I think his team could also score quite easily with Hill, KAJ, and Allen (a three-pronged attack). I don't think anybody on RG's team will be stopping KAJ or Hill, but Dwight/Pau could present some double-teams on KAJ as Bobby Jones is just not going to be that much of a threat. So really, just too much spacing for LBJ to work with where the shooters will make them pay if they collapse because he has 3 shooters he can kick it out to or if KAJ has to rotate, lob it up to Dwight. I think on a pure ranking of the players individually all time, Kurple would win, but I think this is a case of the whole being greater than the sum of its part in RG's case.


I can't decide in the second matchup. I'm leaning Raiderfan due to the size/athleticism overall, but I like Wally's depth more.

[Gotterdammerung]

Not that it really matters, but how were Mahorn and especially Edwards not Centers? Laimbeer always played the role of a PF offensively on those Piston teams (unless Salley is in the game).

What exactly is the "problem"? Too crowded in the paint? Laimbeer always roamed the perimeter on offense, and Russell works in the high post. Lack of versatility defensively? Russell quick enough to guard PFs, Laimbeer not immobile from the paint as well. What flexibility do I need? I truly believe Russell/Laimbeer/Yao cover all I need from the big men positions.

Sure a true PF like a Pettit could help my team more, but is that a big enough reason for my team to drop this matchup?

The legitimate power forward can score consistently, forcing Raiderfan to adjust his game plan. Your adjustment will not affect his game plan in the slightest.

Also I didn't want to just repeat the reasons others cited - this one is another reason.
You do have the better bench, but if I was building around Russell I'd pick more mobile guys that had reliable low post scoring as well as a mid range option to loosen up the interior.
Laimbeer was a solid defender, but at the center position. He can't keep up with smaller and quicker forwards like Davis, much less grab them in order to muscle them around. Sure he will be on the perimeter, but that takes away from his strength as a rebounder. The Detroit Pistons had low post scorers galore in Mahorn, Dantley, Edwards with that turnaround, etc. You have at best Russell in the high post as an offensive hub for cutters and jump shooters off picks.

[raiderfan19]

Russel was a great defender and everything but your reasoning doesn't really work. If xman is in the game, one of drexler or dumars is out in which case Eddie jones does a better job defending either of them than xman does on Durant, meaning by your reasoning they'd no longer count. As great as Russell was, he's an easier cover for drob then drob is for him. So... Again he wouldn't count by your logic. Soooo where is all this playmaking coming from?

[barkleynash]

Very fun arguments so far in this series. Very good points on both sides.

I don't see lack of shooting to be an issue for Wally's team, especially when he starts Laimbeer and I don't buy into Mookie being able to stop a prime Isiah Thomas (might slow him down a bit but keep in mind Isiah always elevated his play in the playoffs.) For me the backcourt is a big advantage for Wally's squad.
KD has a sizeable edge on Drexler which about makes up for the backcourt difference. I really like AD and he'd get the better of Laimbeer but I also see Russell consistently outplaying the Admiral. The bench is fairly even with Wally having nicer bigs and Raider the nicer guards (Ignoring both Giannis and Linsanity and calling McDaniels and Schrempf a wash)

To tip the scales I favour the championship pedigree and superior chemistry that Wally's bad boys bring. Very good matchup but when it's close like this you gotta go with the known winners. Wally in 7 as Thomas hits the go ahead 3 in the waning moments while playing through a severely sprained ankle...

[barkleynash]

In the Kurple vs Random matchup I have Kurple's squad coming out on top.

KAJ would own Howard, really bad. Think back to Hakeem schooling a young Shaq in the finals. Now multiply that by 3 or 4 to see what would happen. Howard would get a nice dunk in here or there and get his fair share of rebounds but would absolutely have no answers for the Sky Hook!

Lebron gets the better of Prime Hill but it's not as big of a landslide as the center matchup. Guard play is about even. Gasol is a better talent than Jones but wasn't a great fit with Howard when they played together so I'm downgrading that matchup to a wash.

Both benches are loaded with talent (too much in my eyes.) And neither tip the scales I one direction or the other...Still wish he went all in small ball and started Lebron and Melo together!

For me as I mentioned above the KAJ vs Howard matchup is what gets the Kurple the W.

[wally_world]

The legitimate power forward can score consistently, forcing Raiderfan to adjust his game plan. Your adjustment will not affect his game plan in the slightest.

Also I didn't want to just repeat the reasons others cited - this one is another reason.
You do have the better bench, but if I was building around Russell I'd pick more mobile guys that had reliable low post scoring as well as a mid range option to loosen up the interior.

A little contradicting because my role for Yao is exactly that - reliable scoring (low post scoring, midrange game). Yet you found that pairing to be an issue, so I really don't know what you're expecting. You realise a player's "listed position" don't mean anything right? Why is Laimbeer/Yao a bad pairing beside Russell? Because they are listed as Centers? They bring exactly what I want to the table, one stretches the floor so Russell works inside, one to work the high-low with Russell.

And how exactly does having a low post scorer affect his game plan? His game plan is to help on my PF, and in this case, having a stretch big like Laimbeer to pull his help defense is the perfect counter.

The Detroit Pistons had low post scorers galore in Mahorn, Dantley, Edwards with that turnaround, etc. You have at best Russell in the high post as an offensive hub for cutters and jump shooters off picks.

If you honestly think Mahorn/Edwards are better low post scorers than Bill Russell then I see no point arguing with you because you simply do not respect Russell.

Russel was a great defender and everything but your reasoning doesn't really work. If xman is in the game, one of drexler or dumars is out in which case Eddie jones does a better job defending either of them than xman does on Durant, meaning by your reasoning they'd no longer count. As great as Russell was, he's an easier cover for drob then drob is for him. So... Again he wouldn't count by your logic. Soooo where is all this playmaking coming from?

Isiah, Dumars/Drexler, Russell were all superior playmakers to Durant and DRob. Firstly, having a true floor general to set the offense gives me a huge edge in playmaking. Add the fact that i have much more options in the offensive gameplan (Russell high post, Isiah dribble penetration, Dumars working with screens, Drexler one of the most creative creators off the dribble/cut, Russell dribble hand-offs) and my offense is times more dynamic than yours, which relies on KD/DRob doing not just the scoring, but the playmaking.

[raiderfan19]

A little contradicting because my role for Yao is exactly that - reliable scoring (low post scoring, midrange game). Yet you found that pairing to be an issue, so I really don't know what you're expecting. You realise a player's "listed position" don't mean anything right? Why is Laimbeer/Yao a bad pairing beside Russell? Because they are listed as Centers? They bring exactly what I want to the table, one stretches the floor so Russell works inside, one to work the high-low with Russell.

And how exactly does having a low post scorer affect his game plan? His game plan is to help on my PF, and in this case, having a stretch big like Laimbeer to pull his help defense is the perfect counter.




If you honestly think Mahorn/Edwards are better low post scorers than Bill Russell then I see no point arguing with you because you simply do not respect Russell.




Isiah, Dumars/Drexler, Russell were all superior playmakers to Durant and DRob. Firstly, having a true floor general to set the offense gives me a huge edge in playmaking. Add the fact that i have much more options in the offensive gameplan (Russell high post, Isiah dribble penetration, Dumars working with screens, Drexler one of the most creative creators off the dribble/cut, Russell dribble hand-offs) and my offense is times more dynamic than yours, which relies on KD/DRob doing not just the scoring, but the playmaking.

Every player except ad on my team is a solid playmaker, drob was light years better than Russell in the high post.(that's not even arguable) Mookie was a ten assist guy.


How Dow you not a see a team with only one guy who can shoot, (laimbeer) shooting as a problem.

The version of dumars he took couldn't shoot threes. Neither could Thomas. Drexler was a 33.7% 3pt shooter. If you don't see his lack of shooting as a problem, you are blind.

[kurple]

i would hack a Howard whenever Curry would get really hot from 3.

[wally_world]

Every player except ad on my team is a solid playmaker, drob was light years better than Russell in the high post.(that's not even arguable) Mookie was a ten assist guy.


How Dow you not a see a team with only one guy who can shoot, (laimbeer) shooting as a problem.

The version of dumars he took couldn't shoot threes. Neither could Thomas. Drexler was a 33.7% 3pt shooter. If you don't see his lack of shooting as a problem, you are blind.

Seriously? You think Eddie Jones is a solid playmaker? Way to inflate Mookie's stats too. He averaged 5+apg in 39mpg, under average for a regular PG, much less the quality of players we are talking about here in an all-time draft. DRob light years better than Russell in the high post, unarguable? Now that just makes you look shallow.

The trend of 3pt shooting only picked up in the 00s (legal zone defense). Just because the players didnt attempt many in the past, it didnt mean they couldnt shoot. There was just less of a need, and 3pt shots were less effective against man-to-man coverage. Fact is, Dumars/Drexler both had 3pt range and will knock it down given the space. You can keep claiming Dumars/Drexler/Isiah can't shoot, we'll let the voters decide whether spacing is an issue with a Isiah/Dumars/Drexler/Laimbeer/Russell lineup.