Lebron vs Hakeem.

[Quintilianus]

let me guess, hakeem was a better offensive player than shaq or wilt also since he has a better array of moves

It's subjective. He swept shaq in the finals and outplayed him big time, so there's definitely a case for this one.
And for wilt, there's obviously the era-barrier that will not bring us our answers. At least not in our time until they find a machine that realistically simulates games.

[zizozain]

wow... excellent facts.... you win my friend....

Lebron cracking under pressure ..... fact

Lebron chokes ...... fact

Lebron mentally weak ...... fact

Lebron clutch non-existent .. fact

back at ya

[Kovach]

It's subjective. He swept shaq in the finals and outplayed him big time, so there's definitely a case for this one.
And for wilt, there's obviously the era-barrier that will not bring us our answers. At least not in our time until they find a machine that realistically simulates games.

No he didn't, the margin between the two wasn't as great as some people believe.
I have no problem with either Shaq or LeBron, it was the "No... just no.." comment that ticked me off, as if Hakeem doesn't have a case, which is bull.

[Rubio2Gasol]

Shaq was more dominant. In his prime you had to foul him to stop him. However I think people sometimes overlook the fact that this means there was a clear cut way to defend him.

I don't mind people saying Shaq was a better offensive player, because he was just so.......dominant. No one could guard him. But there is a very easy argument that could be made for Hakeem on the basis of versatility and a lack of clear exploitable weaknesses.

[zizozain]

let me guess, hakeem was a better offensive player than shaq or wilt also since he has a better array of moves

Numbers favor Shaq on offense, but who was the more complete offensive player?

Sure, Shaq has the better offensive numbers, but they're not light years better. Still, what was Shaq's game? Catch the ball in the low post, turn, and dunk. That's not a criticism - if you do something better than anyone else, you have to do it until someone stops it... and with Shaq, nobody ever did, because he was just that good.

Olajuwon on the other hand, well - he was great in the low post. He could kill you on the baseline with the Dream Shake. He had the mid-range jumper. Then, when he could already rely on his skills and was already better than all his peers, he developed a jump hook. When the jump hook showed up on the resume, it was OVER. Hakeem could officially murder you from pretty much anywhere inside of 16-18 feet.

That said, I'm not going to take anything away from Shaq's offensive game. Nobody in the history of the NBA, aside from Wilt Chamberlain, can compete with what he could do offensively under the basket.

http://insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=250889

[Quintilianus]

No he didn't, the margin between the two wasn't as great as people believe.
I have no problem with either Shaq nor LeBron, it was the "No... just no.." comment that ticked me off, as if Hakeem doesn't have a case, which is bull.

Statistically it wasn't, but shaq was statpadding in the garbage time in one game I remember.
There was one game that they were somewhat equal, hakeem's team obviously still won that.
Other three were heavily in Hakeem's favour, even shaq admints that he was destroyed

[K Xerxes]

It's subjective. He swept shaq in the finals and outplayed him big time, so there's definitely a case for this one.
And for wilt, there's obviously the era-barrier that will not bring us our answers. At least not in our time until they find a machine that realistically simulates games.

That's a big myth. Hakeem didn't outplay Shaq 'big time'; they pretty much went toe to toe throughout the entire finals. Hakeem was a bit better, but this was a 23 year old Shaq, not the 99-00 version. It was the Houston supporting cast that ultimately made the difference in that series.

[Quintilianus]

Numbers favor Shaq on offense, but who was the more complete offensive player?

Sure, Shaq has the better offensive numbers, but they're not light years better. Still, what was Shaq's game? Catch the ball in the low post, turn, and dunk. That's not a criticism - if you do something better than anyone else, you have to do it until someone stops it... and with Shaq, nobody ever did, because he was just that good.

Olajuwon on the other hand, well - he was great in the low post. He could kill you on the baseline with the Dream Shake. He had the mid-range jumper. Then, when he could already rely on his skills and was already better than all his peers, he developed a jump hook. When the jump hook showed up on the resume, it was OVER. Hakeem could officially murder you from pretty much anywhere inside of 16-18 feet.

That said, I'm not going to take anything away from Shaq's offensive game. Nobody in the history of the NBA, aside from Wilt Chamberlain, can compete with what he could do offensively under the basket.

http://insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=250889

That's not entirely true, while he did that most of the time, he had a very respectable arsenal of post moves, there's been guys that were big, but shaq was as great because he had those post moves and obviously his incredible athleticism that gets overlooked nowadays as he got fat for like 7 years of his career

[Kovach]

Statistically it wasn't, but shaq was statpadding in the garbage time in one game I remember.
There was one game that they were somewhat equal, hakeem's team obviously still won that.
Other three were heavily in Hakeem's favour, even shaq admints that he was destroyed

I decided to rewatch the 1995 finals and chart each possession to see to how effective Shaq and Hakeem were on the court. A special shout out to Jordanbulls for providing the video of this series


Total:
Hakeem: 253 touches, 140 doubles (55.3%)
Shaq: 221 touches, 146 doubles (66.1%)

Here are their stats when they were guarded by each other:
Shaq 32-57 (56.1 FG%), 6-8 FT, 67.3 double teamed%, .578 TS%, 17 assists, 1 O-reb allowed to Hakeem
Hakeem: 31-75 (41.3 FG%), 9-13 FT, 60.2 double teamed%, .446 TS%, 8 assists, 3 O-reb allowed to Shaq

Shaq blocked 2 Hakeem shots, Hakeem blocked 0 Shaq shots. Hakeem did make a 3P on Shaq. Hakeem guarded Shaq on 73.3% of the touches he had, while Shaq guarded Hakeem on 69.6% of his touches. Hakeem got a lot more fastbreak touches than Shaq so in the halfcourt, they guarded each other about even.

When they weren't being guarded by each other, Shaq was being guarded by Charles Jones and Hakeem by Horace Grant.

Shaq vs Jones: 7-11 FG (63.6 FG%), 35 doubles in 52 touches (67.3%), 2 assists
Hakeem vs Grant: 13-24 (54.2 FG%), 33 double teams in 58 touches (56.9%), 6 assists

Jump shots:
Hakeem: 27-62 (43.5%)
Shaq: 2-7 (28.6%)

The vast majority of Shaq's shots were close range hooks.

Dunks:
Hakeem: 1 dunk (vs grant)
Shaq: 9 dunks (2 of them were in Hakeem's face)

Fouls drawn on offense:
Shaq: 37 (17 on Hakeem)
Hakeem: 21 (9 on Shaq)

Hakeem did draw 4 Shaq charges.

Shaq was called for 5 travels, Hakeem 2.

Plus/Minus (Houston outscored Orlando by 28 points total):
On court:
Shaq: -12 in 180 minutes
Hakeem: +17 in 179 minutes

Off court:
Shaq: -16 in 16:37 of action (Houston scored 133 points per 48 in the minutes Shaq missed)
Hakeem: +11 in 17:11 of action (134 points per 48 in the minutes he was off the court)

Interestingly enough, in 2 of the games, the Magic outscored the Rockets when Shaq was on the court. The magic were -8 in about 9 minutes of action without Shaq in game (lost by just 2 points). In game 3, they were -4 in the minutes Shaq missed in a game where they lost by 3 points. In game 1, the Rockets outscored the magic by 9 in the minutes Hakeem missed, but they were outscored by a combined 4 points in games 3 and 4 without Hakeem.

Observations:
-Orlando was for some reason really committed to doubling Hakeem in game 1. They were throwing a lot of hard doubles. Hakeem had 5 assists in that game, all of them 3 pointers, 4 came off of doubles (one was a triple team). I'm guessing it was a response to Hakeem's series vs Robinson. For the rest of the series, Orlando didn't double Hakeem as much and they threw softer doubles.

-Hakeem made like 5 or 6 baskets in transition to Shaq's 1 or so. So while Shaq didn't get credit for giving up those buckets since he didn't guard, a few of those times Shaq was slow in transition. Shaq got about 3 or shots

-One of the commentators compared Horry to Scottie Pippen and Walton took the comment seriously. They are vastly different players IMO

-I'm not sure why Penny wasn't more aggressive. Kenny Smith couldn't guard him at all. When Penny did drive to the basket, he made a few shots over Hakeem.

-Drexler was the man in this series. He really wanted to get his first title badly. For some reason, people rarely talk about him despite him getting more WS than Hakeem in that playoff run

-It's fashionable these days to **** on Hakeem's cast in 94, but this cast was much better than that one. The guards outplayed Orlando's guards. Horry played really well. The 3P shooters benefited a lot from the shortened 3P line.

-Contrary to popular belief, handchecking wasn't allowed in 95. The refs called like 2 handchecking fouls in this series

-I'm so thankful the NBA got rid of the illegal defense. The refs called like 5 of them in each game. It destroyed the flow of the game and limited the ways you could double team a player.

All credits to colts18 from RealGM.

You make what you want of it.

[Electric Slide]

What has Hakeem ever done that LeBron hasn't?

win 2 titles and back to back titles.

If Lebron wins a title this season, I have a hard time seeing much of a case for Hakeem.

[Deuce Bigalow]

NBA Finals

Hakeem
1986: 25-12-2-2-3 (loss was to the 86 Celtics, arguably the GOAT team)
1994: 27-9-4-2-4
1995: 33-12-6-2-2

Lebron
2007: 22-7-7-1-1 (loss, 6 to, 36 fg%)
2011: 18-7-7-2-1 (loss, 4 to, 3 ppg in 4th quarters, 0 points on 0-7 in the clutch, 5th leading scorer in the series, outscored by bench player)
2012: 29-10-7-2-0 (lockout year)

"NEXT"

[Harison]

A strong case for what exactly? Hakeem was a better offensive player and a much better defensive player at the end of the day.

This. Accolades without context doesnt mean much. Imagine Lebron in the Golden age... He wouldnt be seen as great. Now imagine what Dream could do to current NBA? It just wouldnt be fair.

[pauk]

I just think its more debatable than many here refuse to think, its close i think and therefore more interesting to discuss. Keep in mind what company Lebron is with those 4 MVPs aswell... Michael Jordan, Kareem Abdul Jabbar, Bill Russell, Wilt Chamberlain.... players who were not only better than Hakeem, but contenders for Greatest Player of All Time.

[SamuraiSWISH]

LeBron hasn't been the best player for 4+ years. In retrospect, especially given his immature, pouty ways of 2010 and 2011. He doesn't deserve that title. He was the greatest talent, sure. But not player. He didn't have the mental game down until last season.

LeBron hasn't been clearly the best player in the league until last season. 2009 and 2010 you have arguments with Kobe and Wade. In 2011, Rose, Dirk, Dwight and his own teammate Wade.

[Electric Slide]

LeBron hasn't been the best player for 4+ years. In retrospect, especially given his immature, pouty ways of 2010 and 2011. He doesn't deserve that title. He was the greatest talent, sure. But not player. He didn't have the mental game down until last season.

LeBron hasn't been clearly the best player in the league until last season. 2009 and 2010 you have arguments with Kobe and Wade. In 2011, Rose, Dirk, Dwight and his own teammate Wade.

There is legitimately zero argument that rose was better than lebron in 2011.