The GOAT List: 2014 Edition

[magnax1]

Rondo is not top 100 yet. He's not up to par with the Billups or Parkers yet. His last 2 seas9ns have been absent basically.

Can't see him in top 100 over guards like even a Terry Porter yet. Yet.

Ill take Rondo over billups any day, possibly parker too. Neither have done anything near what Rondo has done in the playoffs year after year. Of course Im sure no one will agree withme, as Ive always held rondo Iin much higher regard than most people but Iits hard to argue whith what hes done. Billups and parkers only case is longevity in my mind.

[raiderfan19]

Ill take Rondo over billups any day, possibly parker too. Neither have done anything near what Rondo has done in the playoffs year after year. Of course Im sure no one will agree withme, as Ive always held rondo Iin much higher regard than most people but Iits hard to argue whith what hes done. Billups and parkers only case is longevity in my mind.

No one will agree with you because you are wrong. I understand having certain guys way higher than other people do but rondo isn't anywhere close to billups or Parker historically.

[L.Kizzle]

Ill take Rondo over billups any day, possibly parker too. Neither have done anything near what Rondo has done in the playoffs year after year. Of course Im sure no one will agree withme, as Ive always held rondo Iin much higher regard than most people but Iits hard to argue whith what hes done. Billups and parkers only case is longevity in my mind.

Yet. They've been around longer and done much more. He'll get there.

[Gotterdammerung]

Also Magnax and anyone else....what do you think of the ranking of the three current players in this recent group...Harden, Noah, Blake?
G?

It's nearly impossible to correctly rank guys playing today along with the past greats, because you're caught between ranking them according to their career accomplishments, which puts them too low, making your list awfully dated, or ranking them according to future potential and doing a disservice to everyone else who actually did retire.

[G.O.A.T]

How exactly is griffin already ahead of Marion? He has one season of being able to create for himself, something Marion admittedly didn't do, but Marion was a much better defender, shooter at least an equivalent rebounder and he did it for a lot longer.

Griffin has 3 all-NBA second teams selections and a 3rd place in the MVP voting. He's a different level of player than Marion. We saw that for sure when Paul went out with injury last year and Blake stepped up big time. He may not have quite enough of a track record to be above a guy like Marion on second look, but it could certainly go either way depending on your value of peak vs. longevity.

It's nearly impossible to correctly rank guys playing today along with the past greats, because you're caught between ranking them according to their career accomplishments, which puts them too low, making your list awfully dated, or ranking them according to future potential and doing a disservice to everyone else who actually did retire.

I could be wrong, but I feel like I am getting better at ranking active players.

For me it starts with looking at them as if their career was over today. I try very hard to project good or bad momentum in their career into the rankings, but that can be hard.

[raiderfan19]

So you are ranking griffin higher based on 20 games?

And btw I agree that griffin this year was probablu better than Marion ever was. The thing I find interesting is what in your mind separates Marion from say Kevin Garnett other than passing. Garnett was absolutely a better player and while he was certainly much better at creating his own offense(and offense for others) he was also never a guy who you could just give the ball to and say go to work.

This is a massive undertaking and I appreciate the work that goes into it. I'm not trying to be a dick because it's a lot easier to point out the flaws in someone else's list than it is to make your own but I just don't see how you justify some of the guys I know are coming being ahead of Marion and I know that you are going to rank kg ahead of some guys who were much better at being "the man" because of his all around game and I'm just curious to hear your rationale.

[raiderfan19]

Ill take Rondo over billups any day, possibly parker too. Neither have done anything near what Rondo has done in the playoffs year after year. Of course Im sure no one will agree withme, as Ive always held rondo Iin much higher regard than most people but Iits hard to argue whith what hes done. Billups and parkers only case is longevity in my mind.

What exactly do you think rondo has done in the playoffs???

[L.Kizzle]

So you are ranking griffin higher based on 20 games?

And btw I agree that griffin this year was probablu better than Marion ever was. The thing I find interesting is what in your mind separates Marion from say Kevin Garnett other than passing. Garnett was absolutely a better player and while he was certainly much better at creating his own offense(and offense for others) he was also never a guy who you could just give the ball to and say go to work.

This is a massive undertaking and I appreciate the work that goes into it. I'm not trying to be a dick because it's a lot easier to point out the flaws in someone else's list than it is to make your own but I just don't see how you justify some of the guys I know are coming being ahead of Marion and I know that you are going to rank kg ahead of some guys who were much better at being "the man" because of his all around game and I'm just curious to hear your rationale.

You could give the rock to KG down on the block. Not Marion. Nash was taking it or handing off to Amare.

[raiderfan19]

You could give the rock to KG down on the block. Not Marion. Nash was taking it or handing off to Amare.

No argument. Kg is in a different class of player than Marion though it might surprise you to learn that Marion's career % of 2pt fgs that are assisted is 68.6 and kgs is 67.2. Not exactly a huge difference.

[G.O.A.T]

So you are ranking griffin higher based on 20 games?

Not exactly, but that was the most important stretch of his career. It suggests he may be a franchise player, something Marion never even hinted at being. That's the basis for my ranking. Sort of like Bill Walton being above Robert Parish. One was good for a lot longer, but the other was great, even if just for a short while.

And btw I agree that griffin this year was probablu better than Marion ever was. The thing I find interesting is what in your mind separates Marion from say Kevin Garnett other than passing. Garnett was absolutely a better player and while he was certainly much better at creating his own offense(and offense for others) he was also never a guy who you could just give the ball to and say go to work.

I try very hard to rate players by a composite evaluation of their skills in individual areas of the game. I mean a guy like Billy Owens was a lot better overall player than say Mitch Richmond. Owens was a better passer, ball handler, on ball defender, help defender, rebounder, set better screens, all Richmond did better was shoot and score. Still I have no doubt which player had more impact. That's the KG versus Marion difference. Impact. Just look at KG's T-Wolves teams without another star player vs. Marions pre-Nash Suns with PG's like Kidd and Marbury as his sidekick and deeper rosters overall.

This is a massive undertaking and I appreciate the work that goes into it. I'm not trying to be a dick because it's a lot easier to point out the flaws in someone else's list than it is to make your own but I just don't see how you justify some of the guys I know are coming being ahead of Marion and I know that you are going to rank kg ahead of some guys who were much better at being "the man" because of his all around game and I'm just curious to hear your rationale.

I hope it will become more clear as the project goes on. Let me assure you I don't mind the criticisms and critiques. My list changes a lot every year, so obviously even I think I am wrong about a lot of my rankings. Once I get another 25-30 players listed, if you're up for it, make a list of the guys you'd have Marion above that I do not. That should allow us to better understand the things I value more or less than you do.

Thanks for all your contributions to all these threads. I do appreciate it greatly.

[G.O.A.T]

[FONT="Book Antiqua"]#153 Ralph Lee Sampson Jr.
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Tier Classification: Winning Pieces: Momentary Elite
Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons): 9 (3)
Primary Role(s): 1A/1B on contender
Prime Averages: 21-11-3-1-2

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[FONT="Comic Sans MS"]-Your typical 7’4” power forward, Sampson could run and jump like a man a foot shorter, and maybe had he been 6’8” or 6’10” instead, his career would have lasted longer. Still for three plus seasons, two alongside Hakeem Olajuwon, the NBA got a glimpse of it’s future. Athletic big men with the mentalities of forwards and the skills of a guard. Imagine KG as Ralph Sampson 2.0. After the first attempt failed, the creators a perfect basketball machine said okay, we have to be more realistic, how about a guy 7’ with guard skills & athleticism instead of 7’4”. That was Ralph, his favorite habit was to grab a rebound and start the fast break. His body, coordinated as he was, seemed not to run but rather lunge down the court, a flailing mass of limbs that was harder to slow down than Ralph realized. Sampson was a legend before he ever played an NBA game, at Virginia he spent four years literally and figuratively towering over the competition, winning three National Player of the Year Awards. He was ready for the NBA by the time the freshman year was over. From the time he finished high school, NBA teams were knocking down his door, especially the Lakers and Celtics. When Red Auerbach, sure he had finally convinced Sampson to enter the draft in 1980 (where the Celtics had the top pick) found out Sampson was returning to school he was dumbfounded; 'It defies common sense. It's ridiculous. If he were an intellectual genius and was planning on being a surgeon then I'd buy it.''

When Sampson did finally come out of College, to say he was considered a sure thing would be an understatement. The Rockets who had traded Moses Malone the previous off-season won the coin flip for the top pick. It was such a foregone conclusion that they take Sampson that even commissioner Larry O'Brien had a joke when he announced sarcastically here's a “surprise”. SI ran a piece titled “It’s Just a Matter of Time” after Sampson had a lackluster preseason in 1983, declaring he would be the NBA’s next great Big Man not if, but when. However, and quickly, as is the trend with every superstar giant who comes along, the same people who built him up, began to tear him down for not reaching their expectations. The inevitable labels, of selfish, soft, not a winner. What seems clear now, separated from the moment is that Sampsons obvious talent was in need of refining, that is all. If anything his problem early on was wanting to do too much too soon. Though he had always preferred the jump shot or the dribble drive to a traditional post game, his refusal to develop a go-to-move in the post frustrated coaches and critics alike. As he said though; "(coach Bill) Fitch says he wants me to have one shot I can depend on nine times out of 10. Well, I want to do them all. I don't want just one shot. I want to shoot outside. I want to dribble the ball up and down the floor. Some of my teammates don't think I can do it. I know Fitch hollers to them to run and get it from me. But I can do it."

The real downfall for Sampson was as obvious as his talent. His body just couldn't keep doing what no other body that size could do. Injuries wrecked havoc on his career; there was a fall in Boston Garden, March 1986. His back absorbed the blow and his right leg went numb. Sampson shook it off, but seemingly continued to feel the effects. In February of 1987 playing against Denver he slipped on a wet spot and tore ligaments in his knee. He rushed back from surgery and hurt it again in 1988 and that same year he was traded to Golden State. From there it was a quick road downhill, he was never near the same player, oft injured and by 1991 his career was over.The fall in Garden may have accelerated the process, but if anyone had bothered to look closer, there were signs that Sampson’s body and athletic ability were already trending downward before he even left Virginia. Sampson blocked 157 shots in his Freshman year of College, and never approached that total again in his collegiate days and in the NBA (in terms of per game), his 197 blocks in 82 games (2.4/gm) of his rookie season was his highest pro career total as well and lower than any collegiate per game average. You could see the joints tightening up, the stress wearing him down.

During his rookie year Sampson played to mixed reviews, the talent was obvious but the results were not there for the team yet. Winning the rookie of the year seemed more like a relief than an accomplishment and even though he averaged 21 points, 11 rebounds and 2.4 blocks per game, people wanted more. The Rockets won the coin toss for the second straight year in 1984 and this time got the rights to Akeem Olajuwon out of Houston, another center. Some wondered if Olajuwon and Sampson could play together, but Bill Fitch was confident they could, Sampson was excited to move to power forward. A move coach Fitch praised him for; from SI... "Ralph knows all five spots completely," says Fitch. The coach is well aware that it is Sampson who has adjusted his game to fit Olajuwon's, not vice versa. Olajuwon was outstanding as was Sampson who lead the team with 22 points a night and added 10 rebounds and 2 blocks. The Rockets surprised many and won 48 games third best in the West. In the playoffs the Rockets were upset by the Jazz in round one. Sampson and Olajuwon figured to be too much even for the Jazz equipped with 7’4” shot blocking king Mark Eaton. But the Rockets blew a late lead in game five, despite Eaton being injured, they were done in by poor foul shooting and a rash of turnovers. Sampson was 3-8 from the line and committed six of their 21 turnovers, 16 in the second half. Even with the game ending in defeat, and the season ending prematurely the Towers had established that though they could be beaten for now, they could be dominant and soon. The next season would see that potential fulfilled.

The Rockets made a statement right out of the gate in 1985-86. They won 9 of their first 11 games and cruised to 51 wins. They seemed to be the most likely candidate to challenge the Lakers who had a streak of four consecutive Western Conference Championships and had won the World Championship in 1985. Though the Rockets were playing great basketball, they had lost their first three battles with the Lakers, Hakeem Olajuwon had struggled guard Kareem Abdul-Jabbar who had averaged over 40 points in those contests. The Rockets made an adjustment for the fourth game, putting Sampson on Jabbar and allowing Olajuwon to roam in the lane as a shot blocker, it worked. Jabbar had just 18 points, Sampson had 19, 17 rebounds and 9 assists and the Rockets finally beat LA. That win did wonders for their confidence, after steamrolling the Kings (with Sampson posting 20/11/3/2/2) and knocking off the Nuggets, last seasons Western Conference Runner-up 4-2, it was time for Showtime. The Lakers, veterans, experienced, hammered the Rockets in game with Kareem and Magic turning in dynamic performances. In the next contest Sampson played a game for the ages. 24 points, 16 rebounds, 9 assists, 5 blocks and the Rockets stole home court advantage. Games three and four in Houston were the Olajuwon showed, the second year center scored 75 points and the Rockets exhausted the Lakers taking a three games to one lead. In the fifth game, back in Los Angeles, the Lakers seemed like they were going to hang on a make it a series again. The Lakers led by 12 after one, seven at the half. They still led through three quarters despite Akeem Olajuwon’s 17 point barrage, now just by two. But after Olajuwon was ejected for punching Mitch Kupchak with four minutes to go, the Lakers felt sure they were headed back to Houston. With the game tied at 112 and time winding down Byron Scott missed a potential game winning jump and the Rockets secured possession with a timeout and just one second on the clock. On the ensuing inbounds, Rodney McCray threw a perfect pass to Sampson at the high post and in one motion Sampson, jumped, caught the ball, twisted and released it towards the rim. It hit the front, back and side of the rim and fell in, the Rockets were in the NBA Finals...Michael Cooper did not enjoy the moment.

In the Finals the Rockets ran into a buzzsaw. The ‘86 Celtics, often considered the greatest team ever, jumped on Houston in game one at the Garden. Sampson the hero in Los Angeles with 29 points and the most important shot of his career, was held to 2 points in Boston on 1-13 shooting. Game two was another Boston rout, but Houston and Sampson showed well in game three, a Rocket win behind 24 points and 22 rebounds from Ralph. The Celtics took game four and for all intents and purposes the series with it, Sampson again played valiantly. But in game five, despite the Houston win, Sampson was again cast as the villain, and this time rightfully so after he lost his cool and exploded upon 6’1” Jerry Sichting. To make matters worse, he was mocked afterwards; Sichting said of Sampson's attack that he didn't know whether "it was a punch or a mosquito bite. My three-year-old son hits harder." The Rockets bowed out in game six at the Boston Garden. The fans were relentless against Sampson and jubilant at having won their sixteenth NBA title. Sampson, seemingly defeated scored eight points. It was the beginning of the end.
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(edited for space)

[L.Kizzle]

Being fron Houston old school cats talk about Ralph Sampson more than they do Olajuwon.

Here's a question. If Sampson and the Rockets beat the Celtics in 86 does Sampson go down as a Bill Walton type instead of a Maurice Stokes type?

[G.O.A.T]

[FONT="Book Antiqua"]#152 Sam James Cassell
[/FONT]
Tier Classification: Winning Pieces: Momentary Elite
Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons): 15 (7)
Primary Role(s): #2/#3 on borderline contenders/#5 on Title team
Prime Averages: 18-4-7-1 on 46/34/86

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[SIZE="3"][FONT="Comic Sans MS"]-Some players just have a knack for making things happen when it matters most. Unquestionably Sam Cassell is that type of guy. The ultra confident point guard bookended a 15 year career with Championships while playing for eight teams and making memorable impact on six on them. Combining fierce leadership with outstanding speed and quickness, a rock solid mid-range shot, a clever post post, the ability to get hot from three and steady play-making, Cassell thrived in the biggest moment with regularity. In his own words, "I just don't get nervous, I can't explain it." Starting his career in the right place at the right time he and Kenny Smith shared point guard duties for the back-to-back World Champion Rockets in 1994 and 1995. After being traded to Phoenix in 1996 (along with Robert Horry, Chucky Brown and mark Bryant) for Charles Barkley. An Unhappy Cassell played for Phoenix, Dallas and New Jersey in 1996-97. Ending up with the Nets, Cassell got his first opportunity to be a franchise point guard and averaged 19 points and 8 assists in 1998. The Nets were a surprise team and made the playoffs but Cassell was injured and made little impact in a three game postseason sweep. After spending the lockout shortened 1999 season recovering from injuries and being dealt to Milwaukee, Cassel helped the Bucks turn their fortunes around in 2000 and 2001 culminating in the team

[L.Kizzle]

I still got my Cassell Rockets championship jersey.

[G.O.A.T]

I still got my Cassell Rockets championship jersey.

Being fron Houston old school cats talk about Ralph Sampson more than they do Olajuwon.

Here's a question. If Sampson and the Rockets beat the Celtics in 86 does Sampson go down as a Bill Walton type instead of a Maurice Stokes type?

Glad I could send some love to Clutch City.

I don't think Sampson would have reached a Waltonesque Standard, but it certainly would have elevated him.

Beating the '86 Celtics would have had a greater impact on Hakeem. Add that to his resume and you're talking about a top six all-time guy.

The footage of those two together is some of my favorite in NBA history. Their combined size and athleticism with the energy only a man in his early twenties can possess...WOW. It was like nothing I've ever seen and nothing even approaches it today. I imagine Duncan and Garnett playing together in 1998 or Wilt and Russell in 1961. My brother mentioned the idea of pairing Kareem and McAdoo from 1974-1976, saying that, that would have secured Kareem's place as an all-time great (as in Greatest ever) put McAdoo into the NBA@50.

As it was, Houston was lucky to get two games, Boston was unbeatable that season.