The GOAT List: 2014 Edition

[L.Kizzle]

[FONT="Book Antiqua"]#210 Vincent Lamont Baker [/FONT]
Tier Classification: Second Tier Stars
Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons): 13 (4)
Primary Role(s): 1A/1B on mostly below average teams
Prime Averages: 20-10-3-1 on 49/63

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[FONT="Comic Sans MS"]-Hartford University is not a place known for producing Basketball stars so when the Milwaukee Bucks selected him 8th overall in the 1993 draft ahead of other more well known forwards including George Lynch who had just led North Carolina to a National Championship, fans were underwhelmed to say the least. But it didn't take long for Vin to Win them over as the 6'11" 260 pound old school big man was an all-star by his second season and a 20/10 guy shortly after. However after four losing seasons with the Bucks, Baker was shipped as part of a three team trade that landed him in Seattle, Shawn Kemp in Cleveland and Terrell Brandon in Milwaukee. With the Sonics core mostly intact from their 1996 finals appearance, the Baker for Kemp swap brought stability and they won 61 games. But in the playoffs they fell behind 2-1 to a young and hungry Minnesota, won that series and then were smashed by the Lakers. Baker and the Sonics were all down hill from there. Injuries and a lack of conditioning returning to the lockout shortened 1999 season proved to be the end of Baker's run as an all-star. He played seven more seasons and retired in 2006.
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[FONT="Book Antiqua"]#209 Derrick D. Coleman [/FONT]
Tier Classification: Second Tier Stars
Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons): 15 (7)
Primary Role(s): Lead Player/2nd-3rd option on borderline playoff teams
Prime Averages: 19-10-3-2 on 45/29/77

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[FONT="Comic Sans MS"]-Back when Detroit used to roll out a ton of NBA talent, Derrick Coleman was among the best. Coming out of Syracuse as the #1 overall pick, D.C. was expected to take the New Jersey Nets to new heights. He clearly had the talent and four his first four seasons he averaged 20/10. But there was another side of him. He was whiny, he was lazy, he refused to be a leader and set a bad example, as a result his teams underachieved and his career feel off a cliff after he left New Jersey. The talent was still there, but the body was breaking down little by little. The shame of it all is he played on some talented teams too, but unfortunate circumstances or just Coleman's bad attitude spoiled them all. In New Jersey he played with Drazen Petrovic and Kenny Anderson, but Petrovic was killed tragically in 1993 and Anderson followed Coleman's script. In Philadelphia the young back court of Allen Iverson and Jerry Stackhouse was promising, but the team never got off the ground as injuries and a lack of chemistry forced that group to be broken up. His Hornet days he was 40 pounds too heavy, in his second stint with Philly three years too old. It just never came together for Coleman, like many of his generation. [/FONT]

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The other promising forward from that era, (or 2 really) were Larry Johnson and Danny Manning. There problems were due to injury unlike Vin and DC.

[G.O.A.T]

[FONT="Book Antiqua"]#208 Kevin Wesley Love [/FONT]
Tier Classification: Second Tier Stars
Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons): 6 (3)
Primary Role: Lead Player on Non-Playoff Teams
Prime Averages: 24-13-3-1-1 on 46/38/83

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[FONT="Comic Sans MS"]-Considered by many to be the best power forward in the league today, this second generation star and Nephew of a Beach Boy, Kevin Love, has had an up and down first six years in the league. On the one hand he is better than most expected. An elite rebounder, a top-notch scorer from inside and out, capable of playing the five or a stretch four position. He's already posted numbers that rival the best statistical seasons of some all-time great power forwards. On the hand other injuries and competing in a ultra-tough Western Conference with a limited roster has kept him from reaching the postseason so far. Still Love's progression is promising. He has become a better defender, extended his range and dramatically reshaped his body in a half a decade's time. With one season left on his contract in Minnesota his future destination is a major topic in the NBA right now. While it's hard to tell at this point if he has what it takes to lead a Championship team, he certainly seems fit to help almost any team contend from a 2nd/3rd option role. Where ever he ends up he's sure to start climbing this list quickly and soon. [/FONT]

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[FONT="Book Antiqua"]#207 LaMarcus Nurae Aldridge [/FONT]
Tier Classification: Second Tier Stars
Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons): 8 (7)
Primary Role(s): 1A/1B on Borderline Playoff Teams
Prime Averages: 20-8-2-1-1 on 49/80

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[FONT="Comic Sans MS"]-It's hard to believe LaMarcus Aldridge has been in the league for eight years. This past season was for him, like so many other NBA stars over the past two seasons, a breakout year. He set career highs in points, rebounds and assists per game and Portland advanced past the first round for the first time since Shaq and Kobe ripped their heart out in the 2000 Western Conference Finals. Aldridge was in middle school then. He took on a bigger role, both in terms of his play and what he had to say: "I realized that I had to be more vocal, more demanding -- and that I have to still do that more, I think. I have a tendency to roll with the punches. But this year, especially with things getting rougher, I call my own play. I think that's the start of me being more of the leader. I can still shoot it, but if they double-team me, I can still make the right pass and we can score." At 6'11" with tons of length and a solid jump shot, Aldridge is the modern eras answer to Elvin Hayes without all the distraction. He's now made three straight all-star teams in the highly competitive Western Conference and this season secured his second All-NBA nod and his first top ten MVP vote. With Portland on the rise and this eight year veteran still only 28 years old, more good things seem to be in store. [/FONT]

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[ArbitraryWater]

I don't think Aldridge is better than Love... I think Love on a decent team could be top 100 all time.. Which he might be this season

[L.Kizzle]

I don't think I'd put LA over Vin or DC. Love either. That means Boozer is close right, and I don't think Boozer is above VB and DC either ...

[G.O.A.T]

Thanks for following the thread so far, I'm sure there is going to be lots of guys who you might rank higher or lower than I did, and while you can respond how ever you'd like, I'd prefer to hear your reasons than just know you disagree. I'll try to address these specific ones below to help you get a sense for my logic here.

I don't think Aldridge is better than Love... I think Love on a decent team could be top 100 all time.. Which he might be this season

I think Love is better to, but I am evaluating them as if their careers ended today and considering Aldridge has a playoff series win where he played very well as his teams best player, twice as many prime seasons and comparable accolades and stats.

Remember one of my lines from the mission statement. Greatness will be measured by achievement, not potential.

I don't think I'd put LA over Vin or DC. Love either. That means Boozer is close right, and I don't think Boozer is above VB and DC either ...

Here's the thing about Vin and Baker versus Aldridge and Love as I spent a good amount of time on this comparison last week preparing to add the new players to the list and update the active player resumes.

Both Baker and Coleman were probably a little better out of the shoot than Aldridge, but they were older too. From the age of 23 on, Aldridge puts up as good or better numbers than both and both DC and Vin had dropped of considerably after four seasons. Aldridge already has more healthy quality seasons than either (I was generous to give DC seven as two of those he played like 50 games in). Aldridge has already matched both with 2 all-nba seasons and has one fewer AS game than Baker, 2 more than DC (who was hurt by his reputation with coaches in that regard)

Additionally the playoff thing with Aldridge this year. That's what gave him the nod. Coleman never won a playoff series in his prime. Baker won one with Seattle, but he played poorly and both Payton and Schrempf were more productive.

As for Boozer, I'll cover that when I get to him later this week or next week. Mostly he has benefited from playing on good teams which has allowed me to move him up a few tiers, I know what you mean though. At first glance he's not a significantly better player by any means.

Try to separate potential from achievements though. For all the skill they had neither Baker nor Coleman ever did anything truly significant in the NBA.

Thanks for your opinions as always.

[L.Kizzle]

Thanks for following the thread so far, I'm sure there is going to be lots of guys who you might rank higher or lower than I did, and while you can respond how ever you'd like, I'd prefer to hear your reasons than just know you disagree. I'll try to address these specific ones below to help you get a sense for my logic here.



I think Love is better to, but I am evaluating them as if their careers ended today and considering Aldridge has a playoff series win where he played very well as his teams best player, twice as many prime seasons and comparable accolades and stats.

Remember one of my lines from the mission statement. Greatness will be measured by achievement, not potential.




Here's the thing about Vin and Baker versus Aldridge and Love as I spent a good amount of time on this comparison last week preparing to add the new players to the list and update the active player resumes.

Both Baker and Coleman were probably a little better out of the shoot than Aldridge, but they were older too. From the age of 23 on, Aldridge puts up as good or better numbers than both and both DC and Vin had dropped of considerably after four seasons. Aldridge already has more healthy quality seasons than either (I was generous to give DC seven as two of those he played like 50 games in). Aldridge has already matched both with 2 all-nba seasons and has one fewer AS game than Baker, 2 more than DC (who was hurt by his reputation with coaches in that regard)

Additionally the playoff thing with Aldridge this year. That's what gave him the nod. Coleman never won a playoff series in his prime. Baker won one with Seattle, but he played poorly and both Payton and Schrempf were more productive.

As for Boozer, I'll cover that when I get to him later this week or next week. Mostly he has benefited from playing on good teams which has allowed me to move him up a few tiers, I know what you mean though. At first glance he's not a significantly better player by any means.

Try to separate potential from achievements though. For all the skill they had neither Baker nor Coleman ever did anything truly significant in the NBA.

Thanks for your opinions as always.

I do think they with success (LA) or just having flat out better numbers (Love) they will pass them eventually. I'd actually give LA one more season like last season to put him over Vin and DC. IF LA decided to retire today, I don't know if his career is better then Vin and DC though they had very disappointing careers.

Boozer at his best has never been better than the four bigs you have listed so far. And of the forward bigs this era (Amare, Bosh, Love, LA, Pau, Z-Bo) I think Boozer was the worse. Tom Gugliotta's level.

I should have left this for when Boozer is listed.

[G.O.A.T]

[FONT="Book Antiqua"]#206 Otis Lee Birdsong
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Tier Classification: Second Tier Stars
Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons): 12 (6)
Primary Role(s): Go-to-Guy on Borderline Playoff Teams
Prime Averages: 23-3-3-1 on 51/66

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[FONT="Comic Sans MS"]-Most people don't even know who Otis Birdsong is. Well if you don't and you want to learn to shoot, watch Otis Birdsong. Birdsong had a silky smooth jumper than he could get off from so many angles. One of the old school masters of the mid-range, Birdsong used bank shots, floaters and leaners to score 20-25 points per game through the NBA transitional period of the late 70's and early 80's. Joining the Kansas City Kings in 1977, one year after the ABA merger, Birdsong would blossom into a top-notch scorer in his second season averaging 22 points per game and leading the Kings along with rookie of the year Phil Ford and sharpshooter Scott Wedman to their first of three straight playoff appearances. It was consistency that allowed Birdsong to make his mark, said teammate Sam Lacey "Otis was automatic, he could score twenty from the bench." In 1981 Otis had his best season averaging 25 points per game and the Kings had a golden opportunity to make it to the NBA Finals as the West had become wide open with upsets of the Lakers and Spurs, the West's two top teams coming at the hands of the 40-42 Rockets. The Kings and Rockets met in the Western Conference Finals, but injuries kept Birdsong out and the Kings run ended. That off-season Birdsong was traded to the Nets for Cliff Robinson and became the first $1 million guard in NBA history. The Kings fell out of the playoff picture while Birdsong and the Nets, under Larry Brown went back to the postseason. After recovering from injuries in '82, Birdsong would average 18 per game for the Nets over four more seasons while topping 50% from the field each year. He never got another shot at the finals, but those who remember him know he was the guy you wanted taking the final shot. As he liked to say, "there are only three certanties in life, death, taxes and my jump shot."
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[FONT="Book Antiqua"]#205 Jerry Darnell Stackhouse
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Tier Classification: Second Tier Stars
Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons): 18 (6)
Primary Role(s): 1A/1B on borderline playoff teams
Prime Averages: 23-4-5-1 on 41/31/84

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[FONT="Comic Sans MS"]-From his days at Chapel Hill alongside Rasheed Wallace, Jerry Stackhouse could flat out score. And even if his game sometimes lacked a certain aesthetic quality, he poured his heart and his soul into always. Things got off to a rough start as the Sixers, who drafted him 3rd overall in 1995 went 40-124 in his first two seasons. After another subpar start in 1997-98, he was traded to the Pistons for Theo Ratliff and moved from playing alongside Allen Iverson (a rising star with a reputation for being selfish) to Grant Hill (a rising star with the opposite reputation). Both teams got better as Stackhouse became the Pistons sixth made mentoring under Joe Dumars in his final two seasons. In 2000, with Dumars moving to the front office and Hill to Orlando, it was Jerry's team now. He averaged 30 a game in 2000-01 but the Pistons were poor. The next year Detroit brought in Rick Carlisle as coach and Detroit turned it around with Stackhouse now taking fewer shots on and off the court. After 50 wins, a division title and a playoff series win though, Detroit moved Stack to Washington where he played alongside Michael Jordan. After two disappointing seasons there, Stackhouse and Rick Carlisle were reunited in Dallas where Jerry reprised his sixth man role and went to the NBA finals. In total he made tow all-star appearances averaged 20 or more in five seasons for three different teams and left the NBA with a reputation as a great teammate and a true professional. [/FONT]

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[DatAsh]

Awesome, I look forward to this thread and the discussions that follow.

[magnax1]

I dont think stackhouse deserves the same sort of recognition as Aldridge or love, but I was never fond of him. Always seemed like an empty stats guy and teams never seemed worse off without him. I think he found his ideal role in dallas.

[L.Kizzle]

I dont think stackhouse deserves the same sort of recognition as Aldridge or love, but I was never fond of him. Always seemed like an empty stats guy and teams never seemed worse off without him. I think he found his ideal role in dallas.

I don't think he was an empty stats guy (would you say the same thing about Love who you mentioned?) I think Ricky Davis is an empty stats player. Stackhouse was just never in the right place at the right time. He leaves Detroit and in come Billups, Rasheed, they draft Prince. He leaves Washington and in comes Arenas, Jamison, Hughes (later Butler.)

I'd switch him and Birdsong though.

[G.O.A.T]

I dont think stackhouse deserves the same sort of recognition as Aldridge or love, but I was never fond of him. Always seemed like an empty stats guy and teams never seemed worse off without him. I think he found his ideal role in dallas.

I may be biased, but I watched him transform himself into this poor mans Jordan from 2001 to 2002 in Detroit. I don't mean to say he was anything like a player on MJ's level, just that he stopped looking for his shots early, got other guys involved, played great defense and then took (and made) the clutch shots. He was the go-to-guy for a 50-win division champion that added Cliff Robinson froma 30-win squad the year before.

Love and Aldridge are better players, but if their careers ended today, I think Stackhouse has done just as much.

Remember Love has never been to the playoffs, we all agree barring an injury he is on his way to a much better career than the other guys in this section, but are his number and accolades any better than say Sidney Wicks right now.

Time will really fix all these issues with modern players being ranked. Thanks for your always critical and constructive input magnax.

I don't think he was an empty stats guy (would you say the same thing about Love who you mentioned?) I think Ricky Davis is an empty stats player. Stackhouse was just never in the right place at the right time. He leaves Detroit and in come Billups, Rasheed, they draft Prince. He leaves Washington and in comes Arenas, Jamison, Hughes (later Butler.)

I'd switch him and Birdsong though.

I just switched them today, something about the Kings making that '81 playoff run without him just runs me the wrong way. Plus they got better when Ford arrived, not when he did, not saying Ford is better, but he was more respected by people around the sport from what I can gather. Whereas Stackhouse gets nothing but praise from teammates Carlisle and Dumars for his adaptation in 2002.

You have the same problem as me I think, we love the players from our era and before.









A reminder to all of you too to keep an eye on the tiers. So far everyone's in the same tier, so they can be swapped about every day pretty much.

[magnax1]

I don't think he was an empty stats guy (would you say the same thing about Love who you mentioned?) I think Ricky Davis is an empty stats player. Stackhouse was just never in the right place at the right time. He leaves Detroit and in come Billups, Rasheed, they draft Prince. He leaves Washington and in comes Arenas, Jamison, Hughes (later Butler.)

I'd switch him and Birdsong though.

Yeah. Id definitely say Love has inflated stats at least. Hes not up there with moses malone or anything like his stats suggest and probably wasnt ever the best PF in the league. Still Id rather have him than stackhouse who just put up a volumous amount of points on awful shooting generally. I mean, you could say he left detroit at the wrong time or that he was traded for a guy who looks worse on paper who was actually a lot better.
Like I said hes valuable as a sixth man, but I dont think he was all star caliber like love or aldridge.

[L.Kizzle]

I may be biased, but I watched him transform himself into this poor mans Jordan from 2001 to 2002 in Detroit. I don't mean to say he was anything like a player on MJ's level, just that he stopped looking for his shots early, got other guys involved, played great defense and then took (and made) the clutch shots. He was the go-to-guy for a 50-win division champion that added Cliff Robinson froma 30-win squad the year before.

Love and Aldridge are better players, but if their careers ended today, I think Stackhouse has done just as much.

Remember Love has never been to the playoffs, we all agree barring an injury he is on his way to a much better career than the other guys in this section, but are his number and accolades any better than say Sidney Wicks right now.

Time will really fix all these issues with modern players being ranked. Thanks for your always critical and constructive input magnax.



I just switched them today, something about the Kings making that '81 playoff run without him just runs me the wrong way. Plus they got better when Ford arrived, not when he did, not saying Ford is better, but he was more respected by people around the sport from what I can gather. Whereas Stackhouse gets nothing but praise from teammates Carlisle and Dumars for his adaptation in 2002.

You have the same problem as me I think, we love the players from our era and before.









A reminder to all of you too to keep an eye on the tiers. So far everyone's in the same tier, so they can be swapped about every day pretty much.

I don't know if you can judge that 81' run too much. It was basically a fluke. For the Rockets also. Who knows how it plays out if Birdsong was healthy for that series. But Moses was determined.

[G.O.A.T]

[FONT="Book Antiqua"]#204 Danny Thomas Roundfield
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Tier Classification: Second Tier Stars
Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons): 12 (7)
Primary Role(s): Top Big Man on Borderline Playoff Teams
Prime Averages: 17-10-2-2 on 49/74

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[FONT="Comic Sans MS"]-If there was ever a player who is now underrated it's Dan Roundfield. This guy could do it all at his height. A great defender who could guard three positions, jump with centers and run with guards. A guy who was a lock for double digit rebounds and the all-defensive team in his prime, Roundfield was the best player on three Hawks playoff teams with support from John Drew and Eddie Johnson. In 1979, when the Hawks pushed the defending Champion Bullets to seven games, Roundfield led Atlanta in scoring, rebounding, blocks and steals. He made three all-star teams, one all-NBA team, five all-defensive teams and finished 5th in the MVP voting in 1980. He was the man on the Hawks during Nique's rookie season and sadly when Roundfield died last year trying to saving his wife from drowning it was Wilkins who left a fitting tribute. "Dan fearlessly lived and died for his family, which is all he ever really wanted. So yes, Dan Roundfield was a tremendous athlete who elevated basketball in the city of Atlanta, but what is even more tremendous is the imprint he made on all of us, his teammates, and on the lives of his wife, his two sons and his grandchildren."
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[FONT="Book Antiqua"]#203 Robert Terrell Cummings
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Tier Classification: Second Tier Stars
Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons): 18 (8)
Primary Role(s): 1A/1B on Good not Great Teams
Prime Averages: 23-9-3-1 on 49/70

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[FONT="Comic Sans MS"]-The guy selected second in the 1982 draft, right after James Worthy and right before Dominique Wilkins, and the guy who won the 1983 rookie of the year over those two and the rest of that draft class. 20,000 points later, he's still remembered third best from that class. That's Terry Cummings, an elite scoring forward who could rebound and run all day long at a young age. After two seasons with the Clippers, Cummings asked owner Donald Sterling to trade him to the Bucks. Sterling obliged and as Cummings put, "my dreams had come true" Playing in Milwaukee, just a short drive from his home in Chicago and for a Bucks team that was one of the best in the league was a great fit for Cummings. The Bucks won 50 or more games in each of Cummings first three seasons and didn't drop below .500 until 1993. They played in two conference finals and Cummings averaged 28, 22, 22 and 26 points per games over his first four playoff runs, a span of more than 35 games. In the 90's he moved to the San Antonio Spurs alongside David Robinson. He was a prime time playoff scorer there too and helped the Spurs push eventually Western Conference Champion Portland to seven games in 1990, averaging 30 per game for the final three contests of the series but coming up just short. In all Terry Cummings left his mark on the NBA as a marksman and all-around scoring machine, a beloved teammate and now dedicates his life to god as a full-time pastor.[/FONT]

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[L.Kizzle]

I don't know of you'd call these guys underrated or overlooked. Roundfield will be overlooked like David West will be in this era. I used to get a lot of Terry Cummings upper deck basketball cards for some reason. In every pack, he was in there. He stayed around like Cliff Robinson.