when Kobe hangs them up where will he be on the GOAT list

[AirBourne92]

Yeah, besides win shares and defensive win shares which is even worse, PER is probably the most worthless metric in basketball. Completely arbitrary. I've never seen an NBA player or coach talk about PER or the even worse win shares. Coaches do use +/- however, which can give you an indication of what lineups work. And it's not a formula.

But anything calculated from box scores is useless. Rate stats are nice though (TRB% and the like) as are team ORtg/DRtg/Pace, but contrived measures are weak as hell. The only advanced metrics worth a damn otherwise are play-by-play based (+/-)

yes i completely agree with you. win shares and PER is pretty retarded.

teams also use PER but not to analyze skill or talent like how people here do.

you pretty much said it man, the plus or minuses bring the most value, but even that is evaluated in context to what happens in the games--which they review by looking at film.

its pretty funny how people are so quick to dismiss the eye test, but it's literally the 1 thing that professionals do and use.

they break down film to help them with literally everything. coaches use it and individual athletes use it to do their homework on themselves and their opponents.

hell, if anyone wanted to get better at basketball or any sport as a matter of fact, one of the best thing they could do is record their games or whatever and go back and review it and see how they can improve.

[Euroleague]

Top 5.

Kareem
Jordan
Bird
Magic
Kobe

[Euroleague]

John Hollinger is a nerd who likes math more than basketball. He once said himself he watches just 4 games a year. These formulas like PER actually hurt basketball discussions. It's sad people actually take them seriously. Hollinger applies subjective values to each area of the game.

That does not surprise me at all. That "Euro to NBA translation formula" thing he has is one of the most ridiculous and absurd things I've ever seen in basketball.

Yet NBA fans actually think it's legit or something.

He should have taken up a career in politics.

[Euroleague]

So, explain why under the SAME subjective/flawed stat - two people playing the same position, under the same coach, under the same system come up with such different PERs. One SCREAMS excellence and the other is meh (relative to his ranking by his stans).

You are a moron.

[Euroleague]

All you need to know about PER is that it originally suggested that David Robinson was the greatest player of all-time and then Hollinher reworked it. He also said he took minutes into account so you can compare scrubs to actual star players and not miss a beat. A good rule of thumb is that if a stat takes more than a few seconds to explain, it's probably worthless.

Hollinger is one of those clowns that political parties hire as "stat experts" that say they are "math experts" to write statistical "analysis" that "proves" the economic package they have written "saves money" and "eliminates tax loop holes", when it actually increases the deficit by trillions of dollars and gives billions upon billions in tax breaks to super rich individuals and the biggest corporations in the world.

Of course the average retard can't grasp stuff like that, because if it is more complicated than 2+2 they are lost. Just like the average NBA fan can't grasp that PER is a joke stat. Because it is more complicated than a free throw is worth 1 point, a 2 point shot is worth 2 points, and a 3 point shot is worth 3 points. But give it a flashy name like "PER" and they are sold.

Hollinger clearly has that kind of BULLSHIT background in him. ESPN (Disney) probably got him out of the same clique they get their executive goons.

[warriorfan]

Then shouldn't it be BUNK for 2 players who play the same position, similar minutes/responsibility, under the same coach, playing the same system?

Yes it is still bunk. Do you know how PER is even calculated? Do you know who made up the random and arbitrary coefficients? Do you know even what you are using to gauge the supposed production of players?





If you don't even know how the Kool-Aid is made, you probably shouldn't be drinking it.

[Jacks3]

Isn't it strange how so many of these advanced stats don't show up Kobe in a flattering light? But for others, these just SCREAM out at you?

You should really stop with the narratives, because Bryant put up phenomenal advanced stats. Both in the box-score and with the +/- stuff.

[chazzy]

9 or 10 probably

[GimmeThat]

he won't be considered as GOAT.
but he'll have a status that can't be touched.

idk, maybe think Arnold Palmer?

[Lebron23]

9 or 10 probably

This

[nightprowler10]

I'm interested in anybody's top 10, it's always a unique perspective on seeing the same thing in many different ways.
The way I see it is:
Kobe has a case over Wilt, because Wilt was usually dissapointing in post season and has a 2/6 finals record which is terrible for a top 10 atg. Yes, he has many records, many statistical feats, but I value winning more, it's what you play the game for anyway.
He has a case over Magic because of his individual superiority, defense, longevity and magic himself saying Kobe was the best laker ever.
A case over bird because of defense, rings, longevity.
I think we'll agree that he has a good case over anybody else.
So basically, a 4-8 ranking is logical. I have him at 5th, but I'm a fan of the guy, I'm somewhat biased, so obviously it might look strange to some. But I think when it's all said and done most people will narrow it down to 5-7 range for him, at least early after his retirement.

Yeah I'm not big on defending Wilt, but he did consistently go up against the greatest winner of all time, so his 2/6 is a lot more understandable than Lebron's.

Also, I feel like you're overrating Kobe's defense. He's not miles ahead of Bird.