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Old 01-10-2011, 05:52 PM   #181
ginobli2311
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Default Re: Why LeBron is (maybe) the best player in the NBA

Quote:
Originally Posted by knightfall88
but hey atleast Lebron knows that when he plays like crap, he can rack up useless assists and rebounds so when stupid fans look back at his numbers they can say that he did well.

Wade and Bryant have always been better playoff performers. You don't need numbers to tell you that.

were kobe's rebounds in game 7 useless? please answer.
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Old 01-10-2011, 05:55 PM   #182
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Default Re: Why LeBron is (maybe) the best player in the NBA

Quote:
Originally Posted by ginobli2311
were kobe's rebounds in game 7 useless? please answer.

Kobe did not quit. Instead, kept trying, which included shooting as many shots as he did, but he didn't quit. AND he grabbed all of those rebounds, and ultimately, they won.

Lebron QUIT. HUGE difference.
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Old 01-10-2011, 05:57 PM   #183
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Default Re: Why LeBron is (maybe) the best player in the NBA

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Originally Posted by pegasus
Kobe did not quit. Instead, kept trying, which included shooting as many shots as he did, but he didn't quit. AND he grabbed all of those rebounds, and ultimately, they won.

Lebron QUIT. HUGE difference.

i disagree. lebron just played poorly in some of the games. he did not quit. if he had quit....he wouldn't have continued to play great defense in every game.

he clearly was struggling offensively, but he didn't jack up terrible shots and continued to shut down pierce. and he had 19 boards in game 6.

sorry. he just played poorly a couple of games offensively. it happens. people like you and other people on here keep trying to revise history and make it out to be the worst series ever. it wasn't.....
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Old 01-10-2011, 05:58 PM   #184
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Default Re: Why LeBron is (maybe) the best player in the NBA

Kobe banged Kate. End of story.
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Old 01-10-2011, 06:00 PM   #185
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Default Re: Why LeBron is (maybe) the best player in the NBA

Quote:
Originally Posted by pegasus
Kobe did not quit. Instead, kept trying, which included shooting as many shots as he did, but he didn't quit. AND he grabbed all of those rebounds, and ultimately, they won.

Lebron QUIT. HUGE difference.

it was the lakers that won game 7 not kobe who was desperately trying to be the hero jacking up all those shots you don't need to look far for performances like this check out recent lakers vs knicks lakers win in a blow out even when kobe shot 10/28
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Old 01-10-2011, 06:05 PM   #186
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Default Re: Why LeBron is (maybe) the best player in the NBA

Well you asked about how Lebron did individually and not how his team did. Afterall, this is a team game, especially in the playoffs. No matter what Lebron could have done, even average close to a 40 point triple double against Orlando Magic, he never had the required talent level of teammates, coach, franchise to dominate in the playoffs, to win a championship. Individuals win some games & awards, but teams win championships, even Michael Jordan proved that having video-game like productions in the playoffs as his team still was destroyed in the playoffs over and over and over and over until he was 28 years old and got the required help. But anyways:

Quote:
Originally Posted by BallsOut
2007 Spurs in the Finals

22.0 ppg
7.0 rpg
6.8 apg
1.0 spg
0.5 bpg

Which is not that bad considering he was a 21 year old that took a team of scrubs all by himself to the Finals with that historic performance against the Pistons, they were not supposed to be there and Lebron learned the lesson 1st time, you cant win it alone against the best teams in a 7 game series, especially not against that championship team.

Quote:
2008 Celtics

26.7 ppg
6.4 rpg
7.6 apg
2.1 spg
1.3 bpg

Which is very good, but somewhat worse by his standards as he is more of a 30-7-7 guy, especially as a one man army against what was back then the best team in the NBA that won the championship. Lesson was again learned that he cant win it alone with scrub teammates against the best team in the NBA, but hey, he has to play anyways right?


Quote:
2010 Celtics

26.8 ppg
9.3 rpg
7.2 apg
2.2 spg
1.3 bpg

Which was very good aswell, but not the best by his standards. Once again in this series Lebron was preached the same lesson he was preached by superious teams in the playoffs for his entire career, that you cant win it alone, no matter how good you play, if you dont have the required amount of help to beat everybody. Take a look at what kindof "help" he really had in the standings today and now you can also imagine where that 2006 Finals team would have been without him, which were even worse than the Cavs of today.

Lebron had enough of this lesson every single year, he never did complain about his teammates, franchise, GM, threatening to leave or anything unlike someone else very famous today that plays for the Lakers. His franchise failed to bring required help needed for the goals he wanted, fired his headcoach, so either he was gona stay there and just be happy having great stats and be ringless for the rest of his career or take advantage of him becoming freeagent and go somewhere where the franchise really wants championships and does all the required moves to make that happen, it was a very easy choice.

Last edited by sh0wtime : 01-10-2011 at 06:14 PM.
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Old 01-10-2011, 06:31 PM   #187
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Default Re: Why LeBron is (maybe) the best player in the NBA

Quote:
Originally Posted by sh0wtime

Lebron had enough of this lesson every single year, he never did complain about his teammates, franchise, GM, threatening to leave or anything unlike someone else very famous today that plays for the Lakers. His franchise failed to bring required help needed for the goals he wanted, fired his headcoach, so either he was gona stay there and just be happy having great stats and be ringless for the rest of his career or take advantage of him becoming freeagent and go somewhere where the franchise really wants championships and does all the required moves to make that happen, it was a very easy choice.

Get some facts in your head:

They were only ever was a contender for 2 years.

The cavs have boosted their roster every year.

Lebron never voiced his displeasure, as a result, management thought he was happy enough, why wouldn't he be, they were getting stronger every year. This year they even added Byron Scott and were going to make some roster changes.

Lebron took advantage of free agency, never mentioned his intention to leave and left the Cavs with nothing. The problem wasn't so much he left but because he deceived them. What Kobe did was the right thing, told the organisation he wasn't happy and that he would leave if it didn't get better. Kobe didn't leave NOT because of Gasol. Kobe and the Lakers were dominant in first half of 2008 before the Gasol trade and Kobe said he would stay anyways.

Melo is doing the same thing right now. Wade did the same thing but he ended getting Bosh. I wonder how many others voiced their displeasure with the organisation but didn't get the press for it. Maybe Pierce did as well.

The only real loser here is Lebron. Maybe if he grew some balls and worked with the organisation he wouldve gotten what he wanted. They were headed towards the right direction and were getting better. Heck, Boston and LA are close to finishing their dynasties. He would have won a Championship with Cleveland soon enough and that would have been epic. But now he is 2nd fiddle to Wade and no matter where he goes, he has to drag Wade and his +1 more championships with him. He needed Wade and Bosh to get together before he was confident to join them. That is like joining Kobe and Gasol after they got together. If you are the man, you make your team do what you want.

Don't you think that its strange that despite Lebrons numbers, almost everyone says that Kobe is easily the best player in the NBA when the playoffs start. SVG, Mark Jackson, Barkley, Magic, Jerry West, MJ. Heck even I was suprised when Magic, West and MJ said that Kobe is the best player this season since he has been playing like shit.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ginobli2311
were kobe's rebounds in game 7 useless? please answer.

http://www.silverscreenandroll.com/2...in-perspective

Last edited by knightfall88 : 01-10-2011 at 06:51 PM.
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Old 01-10-2011, 06:57 PM   #188
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Default Re: Why LeBron is (maybe) the best player in the NBA

Quote:
Originally Posted by sh0wtime
Well you asked about how Lebron did individually and not how his team did. Afterall, this is a team game, especially in the playoffs. No matter what Lebron could have done, even average close to a 40 point triple double against Orlando Magic, he never had the required talent level of teammates, coach, franchise to dominate in the playoffs, to win a championship. Individuals win some games & awards, but teams win championships, even Michael Jordan proved that having video-game like productions in the playoffs as his team still was destroyed in the playoffs over and over and over and over until he was 28 years old and got the required help. But anyways:



22.0 ppg
7.0 rpg
6.8 apg
1.0 spg
0.5 bpg

Which is not that bad considering he was a 21 year old that took a team of scrubs all by himself to the Finals with that historic performance against the Pistons, they were not supposed to be there and Lebron learned the lesson 1st time, you cant win it alone against the best teams in a 7 game series, especially not against that championship team.



26.7 ppg
6.4 rpg
7.6 apg
2.1 spg
1.3 bpg

Which is very good, but somewhat worse by his standards as he is more of a 30-7-7 guy, especially as a one man army against what was back then the best team in the NBA that won the championship. Lesson was again learned that he cant win it alone with scrub teammates against the best team in the NBA, but hey, he has to play anyways right?




26.8 ppg
9.3 rpg
7.2 apg
2.2 spg
1.3 bpg

Which was very good aswell, but not the best by his standards. Once again in this series Lebron was preached the same lesson he was preached by superious teams in the playoffs for his entire career, that you cant win it alone, no matter how good you play, if you dont have the required amount of help to beat everybody. Take a look at what kindof "help" he really had in the standings today and now you can also imagine where that 2006 Finals team would have been without him, which were even worse than the Cavs of today.

Lebron had enough of this lesson every single year, he never did complain about his teammates, franchise, GM, threatening to leave or anything unlike someone else very famous today that plays for the Lakers. His franchise failed to bring required help needed for the goals he wanted, fired his headcoach, so either he was gona stay there and just be happy having great stats and be ringless for the rest of his career or take advantage of him becoming freeagent and go somewhere where the franchise really wants championships and does all the required moves to make that happen, it was a very easy choice.

Why don't you include FG% and turnovers? Well, we all know why you didn't.

And nobody carries scrubs to the finals or gets to the finals by themselves, I hate when people say stupid shit like this. Lebron was on a top 4 defensive team, so right there, that's proof he had help, you do realize that there's more to the game than offense? And that's included when talking about casts. Cleveland was also an excellent rebounding team and he did have teammates step up when it mattered during that run, and Cleveland was often holding teams to such low scores that Lebron didn't need much help offensively to get to the finals.
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Old 01-10-2011, 07:02 PM   #189
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Default Re: Why LeBron is (maybe) the best player in the NBA

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaqAttack3234
Why don't you include FG% and turnovers? Well, we all know why you didn't.

And nobody carries scrubs to the finals or gets to the finals by themselves, I hate when people say stupid shit like this. Lebron was on a top 4 defensive team, so right there, that's proof he had help, you do realize that there's more to the game than offense? And that's included when talking about casts. Cleveland was also an excellent rebounding team and he did have teammates step up when it mattered during that run, and Cleveland was often holding teams to such low scores that Lebron didn't need much help offensively to get to the finals.
I'm sorry for asking, but, what is the record of that great rebounding, defensive team this year without Lebron.
And please, don't bring up they have lost Big Z or Shaq with Lebron.
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Old 01-10-2011, 07:03 PM   #190
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Default Re: Why LeBron is (maybe) the best player in the NBA

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaqAttack3234
Why don't you include FG% and turnovers? Well, we all know why you didn't.

And nobody carries scrubs to the finals or gets to the finals by themselves, I hate when people say stupid shit like this. Lebron was on a top 4 defensive team, so right there, that's proof he had help, you do realize that there's more to the game than offense? And that's included when talking about casts. Cleveland was also an excellent rebounding team and he did have teammates step up when it mattered during that run, and Cleveland was often holding teams to such low scores that Lebron didn't need much help offensively to get to the finals.

The same reason i didnt include, mpg, PER/EFF, fouls per game, fg made, fg missed, TS%, topg, eFG%, ORB%, AST%, DRB%, WS, WS48, points per 48, rebounds per 48 and so on and so on.

Didnt want to overcompensate, if you want to take a look at every stat about there is to man, start here or something: http://www.basketball-reference.com/...jamesle01.html

And about you trying to speak in favor of his teammates, yes he had help, i never said he didnt have help, but i said he didnt have the required help to do what you, me and others expected him to do, win a championship.

What you should hate more is how people act like this is a 1 on 1 game or a 1 on 5 game, nobody in NBA history could have won a championship with the help Lebron had, nobody. We call Michael Jordan the greatest to have ever played basketball for example, but people forget that its a statement based on career, not on talent/skill, Oscar Robertson & Wilt Chamberlain for example were much more talanted/skilled and everything than Michael Jordan, yet they failed in the championship department, why? Because that is the biggest team accomplishment there is, if you dont have the required help you can even average 100 points if you so wish and still not win a championship, its a fact which many people avoid.

Last edited by sh0wtime : 01-10-2011 at 07:11 PM.
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Old 01-10-2011, 07:42 PM   #191
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Default Re: Why LeBron is (maybe) the best player in the NBA

Quote:
Originally Posted by LEFT4DEAD
I'm sorry for asking, but, what is the record of that great rebounding, defensive team this year without Lebron.
And please, don't bring up they have lost Big Z or Shaq with Lebron.

I didn't say Lebron had some great cast, but he didn't get them to the finals by himself, nobody does. While Mike Brown was a poor offensive coach, he was a big reason for their defensive success. The Cavs relied heavily on Lebron offensively, because they didn't have another guy who could be a go to guy consistently, then consider that Cavs players have missed a decent amount of games.

The way that Cleveland team was built, of course they're not going to be very good without Lebron, but they also lost a good amount of size with the departures of Shaq and Z which gives them yet another weakness.

But the team complemented Lebron well, they weren't a team you should expect him to win a title with, but not a team full of scrubs either and Lebron didn't do everything by himself. The team was great defensively due to them having a defensive-minded coach and players who played hard at that end, that's not there anymore either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sh0wtime
The same reason i didnt include, mpg, PER/EFF, fouls per game, fg made, fg missed, TS%, topg, eFG%, ORB%, AST%, DRB%, WS, WS48, points per 48, rebounds per 48 and so on and so on.

Didnt want to overcompensate, if you want to take a look at every stat about there is to man, start here or something: http://www.basketball-reference.com/...jamesle01.html

And about you trying to speak in favor of his teammates, yes he had help, i never said he didnt have help, but i said he didnt have the required help to do what you, me and others expected him to do, win a championship.

What you should hate more is how people act like this is a 1 on 1 game or a 1 on 5 game, nobody in NBA history could have won a championship with the help Lebron had, nobody. We call Michael Jordan the greatest to have ever played basketball for example, but people forget that its a statement based on career, not on talent/skill, Oscar Robertson & Wilt Chamberlain for example were much more talanted/skilled and everything than Michael Jordan, yet they failed in the championship department, why? Because that is the biggest team accomplishment there is, if you dont have the required help you can even average 100 points if you so wish and still not win a championship, its a fact which many people avoid.

I never said I expected Lebron to win a title with that cast, I peronally thought he did everything he possibly could in the 2009 playoffs and played unbelievable that year, in fact, I've broken down why Cleveland lost to Orlando many times and I don't blame Lebron for that series.

But, you're also being disingenuous. Not showing at least some measure of scoring efficiency when his scoring/shooting efficiency by any measure was horrendous is deceptive. Also, he turned the ball over at such a prolific rate. Excluding that while excluding FG%, eFG% or TS%, whichever you prefer is misleading.

And no, excluding those is not the same as excluding garbage stats like win shares, PER or stats that become useless when a player is playing big minutes such as per 48 stats.
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Old 01-10-2011, 07:49 PM   #192
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Default Re: Why LeBron is (maybe) the best player in the NBA

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaqAttack3234
I didn't say Lebron had some great cast, but he didn't get them to the finals by himself, nobody does. While Mike Brown was a poor offensive coach, he was a big reason for their defensive success. The Cavs relied heavily on Lebron offensively, because they didn't have another guy who could be a go to guy consistently, then consider that Cavs players have missed a decent amount of games.

The way that Cleveland team was built, of course they're not going to be very good without Lebron, but they also lost a good amount of size with the departures of Shaq and Z which gives them yet another weakness.

But the team complemented Lebron well, they weren't a team you should expect him to win a title with, but not a team full of scrubs either and Lebron didn't do everything by himself. The team was great defensively due to them having a defensive-minded coach and players who played hard at that end, that's not there anymore either.



I never said I expected Lebron to win a title with that cast, I peronally thought he did everything he possibly could in the 2009 playoffs and played unbelievable that year, in fact, I've broken down why Cleveland lost to Orlando many times and I don't blame Lebron for that series.

But, you're also being disingenuous. Not showing at least some measure of scoring efficiency when his scoring/shooting efficiency by any measure was horrendous is deceptive. Also, he turned the ball over at such a prolific rate. Excluding that while excluding FG%, eFG% or TS%, whichever you prefer is misleading.

And no, excluding those is not the same as excluding garbage stats like win shares, PER or stats that become useless when a player is playing big minutes such as per 48 stats.

Quote:
HURLBURT FIELD -- Amid the fallout in Cleveland after last season's playoff ouster, there was speculation that Mike Brown's firing as coach was linked to a strained relationship with LeBron James.
Now that both have moved on from the Cavaliers, James took time after practice Tuesday with the Heat to credit his former coach for preparing him to make a smooth transition from one defensive team to another.
After leading his unit to a dominant performance in the Heat's first practice of training camp, James said there are similarities in the approach and commitment to defense.
The Cavaliers and Heat ranked among the league leaders last season in several defensive categories, including fewest points allowed and defensive field-goal percentage.
``I've come from Cleveland under Mike Brown, who was an unbelievable defensive coach,'' James said. ``I'm going to try to implement some of the things I learned from him, and bring it here.''
During his process of getting to know James, coach Erik Spoelstra reached out to Brown. Spoelstra and Brown have been friends since they played for rival West Coast Conference college teams.
The Heat traditionally spends the first several days of training camp working exclusively on defense.

The team didn't run any offensive drills Tuesday. That was fine with James, who said it was only natural.
``Defensively, that's where I've always made my mark,'' James said. ``And that's where I'll continue to make my mark. I'm used to that.''


Read more: http://www.miamiherald.com/2010/09/2...#ixzz1AgB9mBam
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Old 01-11-2011, 11:07 PM   #193
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Default Re: Why LeBron is (maybe) the best player in the NBA

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I would, too. To clean my house. Plus, he would be less inclined to steal.
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