Do people have Kobe ahead of Duncan on their all-time lists?

[White Chocolate]

White C, it is not Kobe's fault he had to play behind the most dominant player in the league. If Duncan was drafted by LA, his accolades would be cut in half.

I think for the past 3-4 years Kobe has had more impact on the game then Tim Duncan, I think at their peak they are both very close to each other. Duncan right now is higher because he had a chance to lead a franchise his entire career, while Kobe is just starting to take on that responsibility.

Kobe hasn't done anything without a decent defensive big. If you took away Duncan't supporting cast, he wouldn't win anything. Even the great MJ didn't win squat until Pippen became a good player. As for leadership, Duncan not only could be counted on, but also depended on. Kobe was often mediocre, especially in the Finals. Duncan > Kobe.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Oh you mean every year after Robinson? Which is just like Hakeem after Sampson?

Then I guess the GOAT PF is

Don't forget that at the tail end of Robinson's career, Duncan was basically playing with Malik Rose as much as he was playing Robinson. But Sampson was considered more of a PF than Olajuwon, although I considered them a 2 center lineup like Robinson and Duncan.

But back to the oriignal question. No, Kobe is not ahead of Duncan. Duncan has more MVP's, he was a better defender, has just as big of an impact at his peak offensively, he's won 3 more titles as the main guy and he had the better peak.

Can someone tell me when Kobe was ever as good as 2003 Duncan? Duncan averaged 24.7 ppg, 15.4 rpg, 5.3 apg, 3.3 bpg and 52.9 FG% throughout the entire playoffs on his way to a title. He had a near quadruple double in the clinching game of the finals as well as a 20/20 game.

[Story Up]

Kobe hasn't done anything without a decent defensive big. If you took away Duncan't supporting cast, he wouldn't win anything. Even the great MJ didn't win squat until Pippen became a good player. As for leadership, Duncan not only could be counted on, but also depended on. Kobe was often mediocre, especially in the Finals. Duncan > Kobe.

Duncan's teammates rose to the occasion many times in the finals; where were Kobe's? (without Shaquille?)

[White Chocolate]

Not so much, Duncan won more, but was the worse player. Garnett had as good of defense, hustle and basically did everything Duncan did and more. The reason people see Duncan as better is because he has had better teams. This is true of alot of players. If you give Garnett the same teams as Duncan from 02-05 he might give you three straight championships. Look what he did with some of those horrific teams in the early thousands.

Garnett was the better individual player. He was more skilled, yes. Duncan was the better team player. Duncan has proven to be a winner, he has proven to come through in the clutch, and he has proven to be a defensive beast when the time is called. Even with Garnett being more skilled individually, Duncan was the better team player, leader, and was more clutch.

[EMERE]

Duncan won all 4 while being the head hancho and anchoring the team's defense. Kobe was second fiddle for 3 of the 4.





During the Lakers 3-peat, they had players that understood their role just like the Spurs players(Fisher, Fox, Horry). For the majority of Kobe's career with the Lakers, they were a great team. It was only a 2-3 year period where they were mediocre.





Duncan is 3/4 in Finals MVP. Kobe is 1/4.





No one is disagreeing that Duncan is below MJ.





At present, yes. Kobe is younger and big men often tend to decline faster. As for overall careers, Duncan will be the GOAT PF. He will be above Kobe.





People love Duncan because he is a winner, leader, humble, and turned down $40 million so the Spurs could sign other players. He is a team player and an even better person.

So let me get this straight just because Duncan is more humble and a good person his the better player? basketball fans just crack me up. Can you get more girly than this?you people don't even know basketball players life, thats what cracks me up about basketball fans they care what players do outside of basketball.

[White Chocolate]

Duncan's teammates rose to the occasion many times in the finals; where were Kobe's? (without Shaquille?)

2000 title clinching game- Rice(16/6)
2001 title clinching game- Fox(20/6/6), Fisher(18/3/3/2), Horry(7/6 off the bench)
2002 title clinching game- Horry(12/6/4/2), Fisher(13/5/4), George(11/6 off the bench)


Kobe's teammates rose to the occassion.

[White Chocolate]

So let me get this straight just because Duncan is more humble and a good person his the better player? basketball fans just crack me up. Can you get more girly than this?you people don't even know basketball players life, thats what cracks me up about basketball fans they care what players do outside of basketball.

Thanks for reading the rest of the post. Another example of a casual fan.

[magnax1]

Garnett was the better individual player. He was more skilled, yes. Duncan was the better team player. Duncan has proven to be a winner, he has proven to come through in the clutch, and he has proven to be a defensive beast when the time is called. Even with Garnett being more skilled individually, Duncan was the better team player, leader, and was more clutch.

A better leader and maybe more clutch but in no way was/is a better team player. People have forgotten so quickly how good KG was, and how much he made his team better. Like I said before just go look at what he did with those teams in the early thousands. He made those teams.

[Duncan21formvp]

On your all-time list of great NBA players, do you currently have Kobe ahead of Duncan? If so, why? If not, why?

Not even close.

Kobe is in the 15-18 range while Duncan is top 6.

[Story Up]

Thanks for reading the rest of the post. Another example of a casual fan.

Re-read your posts and then tell me you aren't sounding like a hypocrite.
Kobe hasn't done "nothing" without a good defensive big?
Tell me what exactly has Duncan done without a terrific supporting cast?

Duncan has had so much help in his championship runs, Kobe minus Shaquille had players fold on him time and time again.

[Allstar24]

Most sports analysts, coaches and players have Kobe ahead of Duncan already. So it doesn't take much to figure out that Kobe will be higher than Duncan on the all-time list by the end of his career.

[Duncan21formvp]

Give Kobe Manu, Parker and Bowen and DROB and he would win 6+ ships. Dudes acting like Duncan did it all by himself. He had the most help out of any star. Kobe > Duncan. If you actually think Duncan should be ahead of Kobe, then LOL. Holla at me when Duncan ever brings his team to the 'offs with Smush as his PG and Puke Walton as his SF. Mmmkay?

The board hates Kobe so it's expected that they pick LOL Duncan over him. Even though Kobe has a winning record over that overrated guy in the playoffs. Explain that to me...

Couldn't even win with Shaq, Malone and Payton, 3 other top 25 guys all time.


Duncan made Manu and Parker and don't say he didn't because Manu was the 57th pick and Parker 29th pick and Bowen wasn't even drafted.

[Story Up]

Not even close.

Kobe is in the 15-18 range while Duncan is top 6.

Jordan, Shaquille, Kareem, Magic, Bird, Russell, Wilt, Hakeem.
The only player I'd put Duncan above is Hakeem, he is not better then any of the other players.

[White Chocolate]

Re-read your posts and then tell me you aren't sounding like a hypocrite.
Kobe hasn't done "nothing" without a good defensive big?
Tell me what exactly has Duncan done without a terrific supporting cast?

Duncan has had so much help in his championship runs, Kobe minus Shaquille had players fold on him time and time again.

Duncan had minimal help, if any in 2003. You obviously chose to ignore the help Kobe received from players such as Robert Horry, Rick Fox, and Derek Fisher. You make Kobe out to be some type of God-like figure, when in reality, he wasn't even the go to guy for 3 of his titles.

[Showtime]

1) Kobe has 4 rings, how is Duncan a better winner? (They both won 4 titles)

Why should I even address somebody who can't grasp the meaning of "winning"? Just because they have the same number of rings doesn't mean they are equal winners. Duncan has proven to win with his teams on a far more consistent basis, as well as not fold in the finals. Once again: perfect finals record, never lost less than 50 games, always made the playoffs > ___.

2) Duncan consistently had better teammates around him sure, Kobe had to struggle for three years once Shaquille got traded.

Duncan's teams were consistent because HE made them consistent. He played with vastly varied casts of old, young, and mediocre, and he didn't always have stars around him. He was the cornerstone of the team who could take his team and win no matter who was around him. So please stop perpetuating the myth that Duncan has had great teammates his entire career, because that's not true.

And I'm not blaming Kobe for having bad teammates, I'm simply saying that in both players' careers, Duncan has done more to elevate his teams than Kobe. A prime example of this is Duncan's immediate impact. While Kobe took some time to adjust, Duncan took the Spurs to their first championship in his second season.

3) Sure Duncan led his team to the playoffs, it would be a shame if he couldn't hence he had terrific players around him and terrific coaching staff

Teammates have come and gone. The two stars that have been around him the past few years have developed from a time where they flaws and inconsistencies. The only constant for the Spurs since '98 has been Tim Duncan and Pop. I'm sorry if you can't grasp that Duncan has been the franchise cornerstone and key to that team's success. Why do you think that the spurs can plug in any number and variety of players around Duncan and win 50 games?

4) Duncan has lost plenty to LA/Kobe, who cares if he hasn't lost in the finals?

So, what you are saying is that winning head to head matchups against Kobe means more than winning NBA championships? Why am I talking to you again? Do they give out rings and trophies to Kobe for beating the spurs? I'm talking about if Kobe was superior to Duncan, then why has he contributed to his team losing in the finals, and Duncan hasn't? It matters very much that Duncan hasn't let his team lose a championship.

He didn't get finals MVP every time either. It's not like he was the only player that was wearing a Spurs jersey in those championship rounds.

No, but he was the MOST important player in those championship rounds. And the reason why he didn't get the 4th MVP was A) Parker had a great offensive series, and B) the voters in this era will always favor offensive excellence over defensive excellence. Duncan struggled at times offensively, but what he did do was rebound very well, defend the paint well, and helped control the game in those two areas. To suggest that Duncan is somehow inferior to Kobe because he has 3 finals MVP's instead of 4 is laughable.

5) Duncan is not better then Jordan just like Kobe is not better then Jordan, so him being the best ever at his position means very little when comparing the two players.

I disagree. Being one of the best big men ever, and the way he plays, impacts the game more than one of the best SG's ever. Because of the inherent differences in position, Duncan can impact the game in more areas than Kobe. So I think that Duncan's elite play on both ends is better than Kobe's play.

I have Kobe around the 11-15th place and Duncan 8th on my list, but Kobe is also younger and is currently the better player. I think by the end of their careers I see Kobe being ahead.

Well, if that's how you want to evaluate him, then fine. I don't think he's the better player right now even. Why? Because an injured Duncan carried his injured team (where Parker and Manu were both out during the season) with unproven or scrub players to yet another 50 win season, while Kobe could coast because of the moves of the front office. Next season, if Timmy is healthy enough to play 70+ games, I would choose him over Kobe.

Duncan is like basketball's Messiah, everyone loves him for some reason. He's definitely becoming overrated in my book.

Good thing I don't have to read your book.