Reminder: Wilt single handedly lost the 1969 finals

[feyki]

This sends the discussion elsewhere, but this is a pretty baseless assumption. There's no evidence that Kareem ever held back against Wilt for any reason, especially when their matchups were so hyped. He certainly wasn't holding back in the 2 games the Bucks won easily in '72.

Wilt wasn't in a form , which is like his prime as offensive force for 34/35 ages . And same for Kareem . Kareem was limited more on rebounding than scoring/feeding teammates , Wilt had the opposite ; more pivotal game with lower scoring and playmaking .

[Kblaze8855]

Kblaze that is a huge wall of excuse making... This series is one of the worst for a top 10 player ever, you can admit it..

When someone is so caught up in hate they blame people for losses they literally were not allowed to play the decisive moments of we move into straight up idiocy. All there is to it.

If you believe someone should take the sole blame for a loss....while not being allowed to play...you are stupid. There is no softer way to put it. Something in your head...is not as it should be. There is wrong...and there is stupid.

Giving someone individual blame for losing a close game they watched the last 5 minutes of...not being allowed to play....is just being an idiot.

[Kblaze8855]

You cant be serious. I don't care if you're a mod; that is plain idiotic. If I have to be banned for criticising your post, then so be it.

If I banned people for being idiots ISH would have 30 members tops.

West scored FOURTY TWO points. Wilt scored 12. West missed 4 free throws.
Wilt missed more than quadruple the margin.
Quadruple.
You cannot be serious even comparing the two there. That's disingenuous at best. When someone misses 9 free throws and the final score is a 2 point less, we absolutely CAN say that basketball works that way.
This isn't a missed basket or two in mid game that evens out either way. These are NINE misses out of 13. A complete capitulation from someone who is hyped as a top 10 player.

So missing 9 in a 2 point game...means you individually lost it...but missing 4 doesnt?

You want to criticise the rest? GO AHEAD. Not one of them gets as hyped as Wilt. If anyone struggled, they deserve some criticism. . As it was, Wilt was the absolute worst of the bunch and if we're holding him to a high standard, then he should hey slaughtered.

Wilt put up 18/27/5 and 7 blocks on 88% shooting. But he was the worst of the bunch...

We have a Wilt fanboy in this thread who claims that Lebron "quit" in 2010 after he put up 27, 19, 10 but that a 12 point game 7 performance which involved more free throws misses by Wilt than the final margin is ok "because. ..the coach and a stuff"

Id say...not being in the game....fairly good reason not to blame one for its loss. I...and 100% of people on this planet...with a hint of fairness.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8Ckph1tMNU


Injured....treated...kept playing...knee gives out again on the other end...sits for the first time....in the entire playoffs..gets it worked on...asks back in.....coach doesnt let him come back.

Team loses.

You give him full blame for the loss...you are stupid. "Stupid" is the word for such people.

You people whine about Lebron fans on this board and this is why. We can all SEE that he's held to a much higher standard than anyone who's ever played. Anything but am 30 point triple double and the guy gets killed and gets accused of quitting or choking. Meanwhile, we have people like the Wilt fan lined up making every excuse in the book for a 12 ppg series average and a collapse in game 7 where one player nearly singlehandedly lost his team the series by missing more free throws than Quadruple the margin.

Ban me if you have to or want to. But this is the kind of thing that's just silly. Complain about the Lebron stans all want but the delusion lies with those who can't see through a myopic critique of an all time great who needs to lead every team in points, rebounds, and assists or gets labeled a choker.

You really use Wilt Chamberlain....as the example of someone with low standards?

The guy who had 60/30 games with 20 in the 4th and got blamed for losing? The guy who was at times the NBAs leading scorer...rebounder...assister...shot blocker...set still standing shooting percentage records...led what was at the time....the best team ever by record...AND....the second best ever....won 33 games in a row....2 titles...would have 2 finals MVPS had the award existed in the 60s....

And spent 40 years being hated on for it?

This is the guy with low standards?

At one point he led a team to a 47-3 start....won the title that year....and was getting called out for a lack of scoring.

Guy goes from 50 points...every night...to being utterly selfless passing out every time and shooting like 70% as his teammates carry the scoring load on the way to historic rates of winning.....gets hated on anyway. He was hated on for being selfish and losing.....and for being unselfish and winning.

This is the guy you treat like a posterboy for low standards?

You show me anyone else who can get negative articles written after a 65/30 game he loses...while his teammates combine to shoot like 35%....AND get negative articles written for having 8 points and 28 rebounds with 8 assists and 12 blocks in a WIN....because the perception is hes not scoring like hes supposed to and the team didnt win by as much as it should have.

One finals game in 67...he had 16 points....33 rebounds...10 assists...and 9 blocks....one of which was on the potential game winner from Nate thurmond...and he had to answer questions about only having the 16 points? A few days later....10 points...27 rebounds....8 assists...and 15 blocks.

15.

He blocked 15 shots.

People wrote about the 10 points.

That playoffs he had 7 triple doubles...2 of them quadruple doubles.

He had a triple double....followed by a quadruple double...in the finals...and nobody gave a shit. And nobody gives a shit now. Because its Wilt. Anyone else...is among the most celebrated feats in history. Wilt? Nobody even knows. He was one block from back to back quadruple doubles in a finals he WON....and the only takeaway is that he scored only 17ppg which helps drag down his finals averages for know nothings to laugh at.

Nobody in the history of team sports was ever held to a higher standard than Wilt Chamberlain and nobody ever will be.

[Gifted Mind]

No, it isn't. Here are some worse:

Kobe, 2000
Kobe, 2004
Duncan, 2014
Duncan, 2015
Shaq, 2006
Bird, 1981
LeBron, 2007
LeBron, 2011
Magic, 1983
Kareem, 1982
Kareem, 1987
Kareem, 1988
Kareem, 1989

In a vacuum you maybe correct, however I don't think OP was referring to this comparison in a vacuum. It was more based on expectations. Wilt Chamberlain's 1969 finals is one of the worst for Top 10 players based on expectations.

Clearly evaluating players finals performances based on expectations is far more useful and important than evaluating finals performance in a vacuum. A player averaging 30/5/5 regular season at the peak of their careers, and putting up 10/5/5 in the finals in a close series loss, is far more significant than that same player who was averaging 10/5/5 regular season in their final season, and put up 9/5/5 in the finals. While the later performance is worse in a vacuum, the former performance is significantly worse in the overall evaluation of the player.

In short, evaluating final performances purely in a vacuum, is not saying very much. And I don't think that was the intention of the poster you quoted either or at least shouldn't be the basis of any worthwhile discussion.

[Psileas]

In a vacuum you maybe correct, however I don't think OP was referring to this comparison in a vacuum. It was more based on expectations. Wilt Chamberlain's 1969 finals is one of the worst for Top 10 players based on expectations.

Clearly evaluating players finals performances based on expectations is far more useful and important than evaluating finals performance in a vacuum. A player averaging 30/5/5 regular season at the peak of their careers, and putting up 10/5/5 in the finals in a close series loss, is far more significant than that same player who was averaging 10/5/5 regular season in their final season, and put up 9/5/5 in the finals. While the later performance is worse in a vacuum, the former performance is significantly worse in the overall evaluation of the player.

In short, evaluating final performances purely in a vacuum, is not saying very much. And I don't think that was the intention of the poster you quoted either or at least shouldn't be the basis of any worthwhile discussion.

This happens if someone uses the wrong words to phrase something. Using the word "worst" without further explanations isn't specific enough not to get a "comparison in a vacuum" type of response. This is a mini version of the whole "Wilt in the playoffs" thing, when people blindly compare his playoff scoring numbers to his regular season numbers and proceed to call him a non all-time great playoff performer. Just because his playoff numbers can't much his regular season ones, although they still blow out of the water the playoff numbers of most other all-time greats, including players who were famous for raising their numbers, like James Worthy, whom Magic had once called a top 5 playoff performer in history (!).
This, of course, concerns only the comparisons to the series of players past their primes. Because other series (Kareem in '82, Kobe in '04, LeBron in both '07, '11) are on par anyway.

[MiseryCityTexas]

How was it Wilt's fault? Wilt played in a reduced role that focused more on defense and a lot less on offense and was clearly past his prime by the time he played on the Lakers. You should blame Jerry West and Elgin Baylor instead. They were notorious for joking in the finals back in the 60s and early 70s.

[Hey Yo]

When someone is so caught up in hate they blame people for losses they literally were not allowed to play the decisive moments of we move into straight up idiocy. All there is to it.

If you believe someone should take the sole blame for a loss....while not being allowed to play...you are stupid. There is no softer way to put it. Something in your head...is not as it should be. There is wrong...and there is stupid.

Giving someone individual blame for losing a close game they watched the last 5 minutes of...not being allowed to play....is just being an idiot.

[AirFederer]

Wiki:

[I]Van Breda Kolff's success in college attracted the attention of the NBA. The Lakers hired him in 1967, and in his first season guided the team to the NBA Finals, where they lost to the Boston Celtics in six games. In his second campaign there, his team

[LAZERUSS]

[QUOTE=AirFederer]Wiki:

[I]Van Breda Kolff's success in college attracted the attention of the NBA. The Lakers hired him in 1967, and in his first season guided the team to the NBA Finals, where they lost to the Boston Celtics in six games. In his second campaign there, his team

[LAZERUSS]

[QUOTE=AirFederer]Wiki:

[I]Van Breda Kolff's success in college attracted the attention of the NBA. The Lakers hired him in 1967, and in his first season guided the team to the NBA Finals, where they lost to the Boston Celtics in six games. In his second campaign there, his team

[LAZERUSS]

Continuing...

http://www.nba.com/2012/history/feat...ell/index.html

Of all his contemporaries on those Celtics' teams, it is, perhaps surprisingly, Russell, who champions Chamberlain the most.

"I hear guys say that he couldn't have played in a different time, done the things that he did then today," Russell said. "That's bull(...). If Wilt were playing today, he would be even more dominant than he was then. I don't see a center out there now that could play against him.

"The reason people don't believe that is because Wilt's numbers were so big, they seemed so impossible that they almost don't seem real. So they try to diminish the era and those he played against. People can't comprehend numbers like that, things that he did every night in just about every game. So they try to find a way to dismiss them or devalue them and try to make them not real.

"You talk about a guy that averaged 50 points a game for the whole season. Now a guy averages 29 points or 30 points and he leads the league and everybody says he's the greatest scorer. Well, Wilt was 20 points a night better. How do you compare [with] that?

"When I played against Wilt I used to assess how I was gonna play. He knew that I guarded him different every game. I had five sets, five different ways that I played against him. The main agenda was never to stop him. The agenda was to make him less efficient, so that if he got 40 points, he had to take 40 shots to get it. He was always the first option. So if he's taking 40 shots, then none of the rest of the guys on his team could ever pick up a rhythm. So their shooting percentages would go down. Because when you're shooting once every five minutes, there's no way you can consistently be a good shooter. You can't maintain any kind of rhythm. So I would never try to stop him and he knew that.

<p>Your browser does not support iframes.</p>

"I had different ways of guarding him and the key was never trying to block his shots. For example, he had a fadeaway jump shot and he liked to take it from a particular spot left of the key. So I would try to move him one step to the left or one step to the right, so they he's shooting at a different angle. His angle changes without really looking like it's changing and so the shot would hit the rim and go off. That's making him less efficient. But if I were to block all those shots, he was also the smartest player I ever played against -- not even close -- and he would constantly be adjusting. That's why I had to have five different ways of guarding him.

"We had a stretch one time where he made like 10 in a row on bank shots. I said to myself, 'There's something wrong with this picture.' What he had done was get into his crouch and rub me off and throw my timing off. So he's getting his shot off with no obstruction. So I figured it out and the next time he went to rub me off, I turned my body so that when he tried to rub me off he'd miss. So we would go through this dance, back and forth, me and him, action and reaction. When he's counting on rubbing me off and there's no contact that throws him off. It's those things we were always doing to each other.

"On the night I heard he scored 100 points, I just said, 'I'm sure glad he wasn't playing against us.' Because he was always capable. It wasn't a complete surprise. It wasn't like he shocked everybody in the league by doing that. A lot of us always thought that it could happen."

The pair of giants did not speak for two decades after Russell criticized Chamberlain for taking himself out in the fourth quarter of Game 7 of the 1969 NBA Finals -- the last game of Russell's career -- with an ankle injury. [COLOR="DarkRed"]Russell eventually apologized to Wilt privately [/COLOR]and the two then remained close. Chamberlain died on Oct. 12, 1999.

"I was devastated," Russell said. "I went to the memorial service and one of his nephews said to me, 'Mr. Russell, this is something you might want to know. Yesterday I cleared off my uncle's desk. He had one of those things, a spike, where you keep notes or reminders. He had a stack of phone calls he was going to make that day, the day that he died, and you were second on the list of guys he was going to call that day.' That made me smile

[AirFederer]

20 years later :

[LAZERUSS]

Speaking of quotes...thank to airfederer...


http://www.nba.com/2011/news/feature...ain/index.html

Russell has been universally acclaimed as the greatest team player in the history of American sports and Chamberlain painted as his taller, stat-piling foil, who constantly came up short in the end.

However, one man knows the inaccuracy of the portrait that's been painted.
"Nobody seems to appreciate what an incredible player Wilt was," Russell said at 1997 All-Star Game when the league named and honored its 50 greatest players. "He was the [COLOR="DarkRed"]best player of all time[/COLOR] because he dominated the floor like nobody else ever could. To be that big and that athletic was special."

In a sky full of stars, the Big Dipper will always stand out.

http://lakersblog.latimes.com/lakers...t-player-.html

So without further ado, here is Abdul-Jabbar's open letter to Pippen, which was recently obtained by The Times:

How Soon They Forget: An Open Letter to Scottie Pippen

Dear Scottie,

I have nothing but respect for you my friend as an athlete and knowledgeable basketball mind. But you are way off in your assessment of who is the greatest player of all time and the greatest scorer of all time. Your comments are off because of your limited perspective. You obviously never saw Wilt Chamberlain play who undoubtedly was the greatest scorer this game has ever known. When did MJ ever average 50.4 points per game plus 25.7 rebounds? (Wilt in the 1962 season when blocked shot statistics were not kept). We will never accurately know how many shots Wilt blocked. Oh, by the way in 1967 and 68, Wilt was a league leader in assists. Did MJ ever score 100 points in a game? How many times did MJ score more than 60 points in a game? MJ led the league in scoring in consecutive seasons for 10 years but he did this in an NBA that eventually expanded into 30 teams vs. when Wilt played and there were only 8 teams.

Every team had the opportunity to amass a solid nucleus. Only the cream of the basketball world got to play then. So MJ has to be appraised in perspective. His incredible athletic ability, charisma and leadership on the court helped to make basketball popular around the world -- no question about that. But in terms of greatness, MJ has to take a backseat to The Stilt.

Rick Barry at one called Wilt a loser...

Of course, he got to experience "the loser" first hand...not once, but twice ('67 and '73)...

Changed his tune didn't he...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSTt_TxoFVo

If you could have ONE player to start a team with , who would you take?

"Without question...Wilt Chamberlain."

http://www.nba.com/history/wilt_appreciation.html

Wilt's teammate on that '69 team (and then the bystander on the Lakers '72 title team which, of course, Chamberlain carried)...

"He was the most unbelievable center to ever play the game in terms of domination and intimidation. There's no one that's ever played the game better than Wilt Chamberlain. This was a man for all ages."

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=188550

When the topic of all-time greatest player was once raised, none other than the legendary Larry Bird didn't hesitate.


"Open up the record book and it will be obvious who the greatest is," he said.

[Mr Feeny]

If I banned people for being idiots ISH would have 30 members tops.



So missing 9 in a 2 point game...means you individually lost it...but missing 4 doesnt?



Wilt put up 18/27/5 and 7 blocks on 88% shooting. But he was the worst of the bunch...





Id say...not being in the game....fairly good reason not to blame one for its loss. I...and 100% of people on this planet...with a hint of fairness.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8Ckph1tMNU


Injured....treated...kept playing...knee gives out again on the other end...sits for the first time....in the entire playoffs..gets it worked on...asks back in.....coach doesnt let him come back.

Team loses.

You give him full blame for the loss...you are stupid. "Stupid" is the word for such people.





You really use Wilt Chamberlain....as the example of someone with low standards?

The guy who had 60/30 games with 20 in the 4th and got blamed for losing? The guy who was at times the NBAs leading scorer...rebounder...assister...shot blocker...set still standing shooting percentage records...led what was at the time....the best team ever by record...AND....the second best ever....won 33 games in a row....2 titles...would have 2 finals MVPS had the award existed in the 60s....

And spent 40 years being hated on for it?

This is the guy with low standards?

At one point he led a team to a 47-3 start....won the title that year....and was getting called out for a lack of scoring.

Guy goes from 50 points...every night...to being utterly selfless passing out every time and shooting like 70% as his teammates carry the scoring load on the way to historic rates of winning.....gets hated on anyway. He was hated on for being selfish and losing.....and for being unselfish and winning.

This is the guy you treat like a posterboy for low standards?

You show me anyone else who can get negative articles written after a 65/30 game he loses...while his teammates combine to shoot like 35%....AND get negative articles written for having 8 points and 28 rebounds with 8 assists and 12 blocks in a WIN....because the perception is hes not scoring like hes supposed to and the team didnt win by as much as it should have.

One finals game in 67...he had 16 points....33 rebounds...10 assists...and 9 blocks....one of which was on the potential game winner from Nate thurmond...and he had to answer questions about only having the 16 points? A few days later....10 points...27 rebounds....8 assists...and 15 blocks.

15.

He blocked 15 shots.

People wrote about the 10 points.

That playoffs he had 7 triple doubles...2 of them quadruple doubles.

He had a triple double....followed by a quadruple double...in the finals...and nobody gave a shit. And nobody gives a shit now. Because its Wilt. Anyone else...is among the most celebrated feats in history. Wilt? Nobody even knows. He was one block from back to back quadruple doubles in a finals he WON....and the only takeaway is that he scored only 17ppg which helps drag down his finals averages for know nothings to laugh at.

Nobody in the history of team sports was ever held to a higher standard than Wilt Chamberlain and nobody ever will be.

Ok now I'm almost convinced you're brainless.

1- Talking about banning idiots. You've been called an idiot by serveral people on here and I agree with that assessment. The reason this site is in the state it is, is because they've got morons like you moderating. You'll go ahead and delete this post. I'd expect nothing else from you. But my 5 year old niece could do a better job moderating. That's the downfall of this board.

2- Averaging 41 ppg vs averaging 12 ppg and scoring a 40 point triple double vs missing 9 free throws in a 2 point loss is not even remotely comparable.
Hyperbole is just that. But you mentioning or even attempting to imply that west gets anywhere near as much blame for missing 4 free throws shows that you're either stupid or have no clue what you're talking about.

One guy gets a 42 point triple double in the decisive game. The other misses 9 free throws. The team loses by 2. Idiot mod here says the latter isn't to blame.

3- Missing 9 free throws when you're the only one on the team hyped as a top 10 player all time is horrific. Missing more than quadruple the final margin in a 2 point game 7 loss and averaging only 12 foe the series makes you the worst of the bunch, yes.

If you're too stupid to comprehend this, I'll dumb it down for you.

4- We talk about higher standards set for lebron in playoffs and finals as evidenced by Wilt fanboy here saying lebron "quit" in a 27, 19, 10 elimination game and Wilt being excused for a 12 ppg series average and 9 missed ft in game 7.

Dumb dumb here reads that and brings up Wilt's regular season stats.
Feks sake stupidity has no bounds. If you're too thick to comprehend what I'm saying, just tell me.
I'll slow down and dumb it down for you.

The state of this mod. A laughing stock of the forum being a mod. If you want to discuss basketball like an adult, let's do that. If you're about to sit there labelling everyone idiots without making a single coherent argument, don't bother. You're not worth wasting my time responding.

[Kblaze8855]

I called you an idiot for several reasons....and im gonna have to stand by it as I see you were serious.

If missing more FTs than the margin of victory makes one responsible for a loss.....it doesnt matter what else you did. Be it 42/14/12....or 18/27/7 blocks. If missing more FTs than it would take to win...means youre responsible....it just does. Now...dont take that to mean it does. It doesnt. That would be foolish to say. Which I suppose is why you said it.

None of which covers attempting to give sole blame for a loss to someone watching the last 5 minutes. Wilt had barely more to do with who won down the stretch than you did. But by all means...offer him 100% of the blame for losing a game he was watching against his will. That isnt something idiots do.






Far as me deleting your posts....you really must think you matter. You must be top notch....that id read your stinging assessment and need to delete it to save face. You think I need to duck...you?

Like im circling our games on the schedule and about to get my sick voice going and call coach to tell him I cant suit up? Because of you?

Im only vaguely aware of your existence. I didnt even know you hated Wilt till now. Apparently you and Laz have some whole...thing....going on. Which is...cute. Nothing like a little e-rivalry to get the juices flowing I guess..if youre the type for it. But im not that aware of you really.


Do we have some history I forgot? Some reason you would assume id just delete what you have to say out of frustration or....fear..or...whatever it is you think your inconsequential criticisms might have brought about?

I will no sell your haymakers and walk around like the Ultimate Warrior on coke....



...before I delete your posts.

Nobody is concerned about you or your opinions.