Reminder: Wilt single handedly lost the 1969 finals

[Mr Feeny]

Just to preface what I'm saying, this thread isn't for Wilt fanboys who follow me around like a lapdog and offer every excuse in the world, blaming coaches, teammates and ball boys for Wilt's awful play when the stakes are high.

In 1969, the Lakers and the Celtics played a tough 7 game series which the Lakers lost by only a few points.
Lakers guard Jerry WEST played the series of his life and averaged a then-record 40.8 ppg and had 42 in the 7th and decisive game.

Why didn't the Lakers win, you ask? How did they blow a 2-0 and 3-2 lead you ask? How did they lose the 7th game at home you ask?

Well it's very simple. They had the single biggest choker in nba history on their team. The man who's career scoring average fell by 12 ppg from the regular season to the finals.
The man who in this particular close series, let Jerry West down by averaging 12 ppg.

In game 4, with a chance to go up 3-1 and virtually seal the title, this particular choker had 8 points. In game 6 with a chance to close the series, this choker repeated that 8 point performance.

In the 7th and decisive game as the Lakers poured their blood, sweat, and tears into the game AND Jerry West put on a 42 point triple double masterpiece, the choker MISSED MORE FREE THROWS THAN THE FINAL RESULT MARGIN

Alas, the tragic tale of how Jerry West - a hero - was let down by the biggest catastrophe of a series which culminated in the biggest choked in nba history by a single player.

Let's remember this day folks. Mind you, I fully expect my lapdog to come in here crying and trying to blame Wilt's coach for him missing more free throws than the spread in the final game and single handedly losing the series.

[Dray n Klay]

Damn what a choker

[Mr Feeny]

Damn what a choker

Meanwhile a real top 3 goat shows how it's done in game 7's its 37, 12 and 5 threes in 2013 and then a 27, 11, 11 , 3 , 3 triple double in 2016.

That's how's it's done folks

[Proctor]

Wilt is overly romanticized but he is no doubt 100x the physical specimen Lebron is and 5x the defensive player.

[Kblaze8855]

Why do people make stupid topics they clearly know are invalid then make it clear they know....by mentioning the obvious responses to come as if that invalidates them?

When the coach wont play you the last 5 minutes of game 7 out of spite...and you lose...and he immediately becomes the most hated man in town and has to resign like a week later?

The idea that you single handily lost the game while not being allowed to play is ****ing idiotic. It just is. Talking about missing more FTs than the final margin. It was a 2 point game. Several people missed 2 FTs or more. Hell Jerry West missed 4....doesnt mean he makes all 4 and they win the title. Basketball does not work that way.

An 8-10 point game for Lakers wilt was hardly unusual....or something that means they lose. he had 4 points when they beat the Celtics in game 2. He had 9 when they beat the Celtics end of the regular season. He had 13 in another finals win that year. 15 in another(including the game winner). He didnt lead by scoring on the lakers...he played D and rebounded....started the break. He could score...but didnt try. He had 60 and 66 like a week apart when SI ran a story claiming he couldnt score anymore. He just did it to prove a point...but he knew it wasnt his role anymore.

Using his lack of scoring to hate when its probably the most unselfish display of a scorer doing whats best for the team..ever....is just lame. Who..in history...can drop 60 at will...and takes 8 shots a game while watching his teammates thrive? Who does that? Wilt had his issues....but he did what his coach told him to do....and what he was asked to do...was shut down the paint and start the break. Not score. And you know it.

People KNOW IT...and talk about averages....as if he scored 6-10 points out of ineptitude. The least minutes per game he EVER averaged in the playoffs? 46.2. He would play entire playoff runs...and never come out of a game. He played 5 entire playoffs without rest. He played over 47 minutes a game in the playoffs at 36. He took 7 shots a game.

Have you any idea how many looks you must pass up for the sake of your teammates...to take 7 shots a game in 47 minutes a night? He wasnt trying to score as a Laker. You all know it. Hating on a lack of it...when he made no effort to do it?

Are you dudes just dense? Nobody is dense enough to think someone who takes 6 shots in 54 minutes was just....failing to score. He played the role he was asked....a role that won him his second ring....and helped his team win 33 games in a row. Using finals averages against someone who made most of them when he was intentionally limiting his scoring for the greater good is just being a douchebag.

Its almost as bad as giving someone single handed blame for losing a game his coach refused to put him back into....

Be for real. At least a little.

[ArbitraryWater]

Kblaze that is a huge wall of excuse making... This series is one of the worst for a top 10 player ever, you can admit it..

[LAZERUSS]

Not nearly as bad as Lebron in the 2007 Finals, though.

SINGLE-HANDEDLY cost his hard-working team the Finals with his...get this...
.356 FG%! Yes you read it right...that is not a misprint... a .356 FG%.

But it gets better. After taking his team down in flames in everyone of the first three games...he then topped it with a series clinching finale never seen before. While his teammates easily outplayed the Spurs, ... 3 inch LeChoke went 10-30 from the field (yep...that is 10-30...or 20 missed shots)...AND... 2-6 from the FT Line... in a ONE POINT loss.

Chamberlain put up a game seven of 18 points, on 7-8 shooting from the floor, with 27 rebounds, and 10 blocked shots...yep...a TRIPLE DOUBLE...in his game seven. How did the Lakers lose that game? With Wilt saddled to the bench in the last five minutes of the game by a coach who proved he would rather lose a Finals without Wilt, then win one with him.

Incidently, Wilt had a GAME-HIGH TS% of .621. His opposing center, who would win a ring, shot 2-7 from the field, 2-4 from the line, and had an overall TS% of .333.

Again, Wilt's COACH...with his offensive philosophy...

https://books.google.com/books?id=9B...20post&f=false

Van Breda Kolff: "So, we were able to throw the ball down low to Wilt, and he'd score, but it was an awful offense to watch."

Wilt: Butch wanted me to play the high post, so that Elgin could drive, but they got me for rebounding. Why pull a guy away from the basket when you want him to rebpund?"

So the brilliant Van Breda Kolff had the greatest low post scorer in NBA history..the most unstoppable offensive machine in the history of the game...playing the HIGH POST. Why? So that Elgin Baylor could shoot .397 in the Finals. But it wasn't just the .397, either. In game three, a six point loss, Baylor shot 4-18 from the field. In game four, a one point loss, Elgin not only shot 2-14 from the floor, he also went 1-6 from the line. Then, in game seven, he went 8-22, in a two point loss.

When Jerry West found out that VBK had basically benched Chamberlain in the last few minutes of the game, he was furious. Vna Breda Kolff, to his credit, resigned before being fired. His hatred for Wilt ultimately cost the city of Los Angeles their first ever NBA title, and also cost him his career.

Fortunately for Laker fans, LA brought in Bill Sharman a couple of years later, who essentially drove Elgin into retirement...and the result was an immediate 33 game winning streak, and a then NBA record of 69-13.

Wilt then chopped down a peak Kareem in the WCF's, holding him to a horrific .414 FG% in the last four games, and by ALL accounts, outplayed KAJ who had come off the greatest regular season of his career. Time Magazine went so far as to claim that Chamberlain DECISIVELY outplayed Kareem in that series.

In the Finals, and with Jerry West puking all over the floor in the series (a .325 FG%...even worse than LeChoke's '07 mark of .356 BTW)...Wilt dominated the Knicks and their five HOFers, capped off with a series clinching, 24-29-8 game, on 10-14 shooting...and all accomplished with one badly sprained wrist, and the other wrist...FRACTURED... led LA to their first ever title in the city of Angels... en route to the FMVP.

[Im Still Ballin]

Wilt is overly romanticized but he is no doubt 100x the physical specimen Lebron is and 5x the defensive player.

Opponents' shooting against LeBron in Games 5, 6, and 7 in the Finals

Overall: 2.7/12.7, 21.1%, opponents usually shoot 47.9%, -26.8

Threes: .7/5, 13.3%, opponents usually shoot 40.4%; -27%

Twos: 2/7.7, 26.1%, opponents usually shoot 53.3%, -27.2%

Less than 6 ft: 1/5, 20%, opponents usually shoot 62.4%, -42.4%

Less than 10 ft: 1.3/6, 22.2%, opponents usually shoot 57.3%; -35.1%

Greater than 15 ft: 1/6.3, 15.8%; opponents usually shoot 40.5%; -24.7%

LeBron 2016 Playoffs (21 games)

3.2/10.2 Defensive FGs defended

Overall, held opponents to 31.8% FG (Their average FG% was 45.9%

This is a differential of [COLOR="Red"]-14.1%[/COLOR] (He held opponents to -14.8% their average FG%), which is by far the best mark... For comparison, Draymond was next best at -8.4%

SOURCE: http://stats.nba.com/defensivehub/#!...?sort=GP&dir=1

To break it down even further to perimeter defense and Rim protection..

3PT DEFENSE

LeBron was the Cavs best 3pt defender, and along with Livingtson and context taken into account, the best 3pt defenders

0.9/3.8 Defensive Field Goals Defended

Held opponent 3pt shooters to 24.1% (Their average 3PT% was 36.7%)

This is a differential of [COLOR="Red"]-12.6%[/COLOR]

Only one guy who played 15+ playoff games (Shawn Livingston) had a slightly better differential (Abet on lower volume)

SOURCE: http://stats.nba.com/defensivehub/#!...USMINUS&dir=-1

RIM PROTECTION

1.4/3.3 Defensive Field Goals Defended

Held opponents at the rim to 43.5%
[COLOR="Blue"]
The best rim protection % on the Cavs[/COLOR]

For reference Bogut held opponents to 46.6%, and Tristan Thompson 49.2%

SOURCE: http://stats.nba.com/defensivehub/#!...&sort=GP&dir=1

...

Here's also some stuff comparing him and DPOY winner Kawhi Leonard in the regular season;

The usual field goal percent of the shooter that the player is defending
LeBron - 44.8%
Kawhi - 44.9%

Defense Dashboard

2pt FGs - Players shot 8.2% worse than their average when defended by LeBron
2pt FGs - Players shot 7.3% worse than their average when defended by Kawhi
3pt FGs - Players shots 2.7% worse than their average when defended by LeBron
3pt FGs - Players shot 1.3% worse than their average when defended by Kawhi
Overall - Players shot 7.4% worse than their average when defended by LeBron on 8.4 Defended FGs Per Game
Overall - Players shot 5.7% worse than their average when defended by Kawhi on 9.4 Defended FGs Per Game

Play type

When they were the closest isolation defender
LeBron - 69 possessions, .59 points per possession allowed, 28.8% eFG
Kawhi - 61 possessions, .69 points per possession allowed, 31% eFG

When they were the closest defender to the PnR ball handler
LeBron - 144 possessions, .66 ppp allowed, 37.1 eFG
Kawhi - 243 possessions, .65 ppp allowed, 35.8 eFG

When they were the roll man defender
LeBron - 10 possessions, .7 ppp, 38.9 eFG
Kawhi - 30 possessions, .5 ppp, 27.8 eFG

Post defense
LeBron - 43 possessions, .77 ppp, 40 eFG
Kawhi - 31 possessions, .77 ppp, 41.7 eFG

On spot up shooters
LeBron - 210 possessions, .8 ppp, 41.6 eFG
Kawhi - 200 possessions, .88 ppp, 43.6 eFG

Hand-offs
LeBron - 43 possessions, .49 ppp, 33.9 eFG
Leonard - 58 possessions, .72 ppp, 39.5 eFG

Off screens
LeBron - 78 possessions, .74 ppp, 40.8 eFG
Kawhi - 96 possessions, 1.05 ppp, 51.2 eFG

Finals Averages...
2.3 Blocks a game
2.6 Steals a game

2016 Playoff Averages
2.3 Steals a game
1.3 Blocks a game

In the last 3 games, [COLOR="Red"]LeBron averaged 3 blocks and 3 steals per game[/COLOR]

[COLOR="Blue"]LeBron had the second highest playoff DPM (5.8) in a championship winning playoff run of all time only behind Ben Wallace in '04 (6.0)[/COLOR]

[Mr Feeny]

K Blaze it's simple enough.

The guy missed 9 free throws and they lost by a few points. How exactly do we blame his coach for that?

No chance. The scrub choked away the series and cost West his title

[Mr Feeny]

Lazar. Nothin is worse than Wilt in the finals. I'm sorry brother.


Lebron is a 28 ppg, 10 rpg, 7.5 apg player in finals while having 3 titles as lead dog.
Wilt is an 18 ppg finals scorer while being carried to his 2 rings.

Lebron became the first player in history to lead both teams in all categories.
Wilt became the first player in history to singlehandedly cost his team a final.

Lebron is a top 3 goat.
Wilt is atleast a tier or two below. (Kobe about 4 tiers below)

Lebron is the greatest game 7 player in history.
Ilt can't score as much abs lebron in game 7's.

Lebron played against players who could dribble with 2 hands.
Wilt played against players who dribble with one hand and who my grandmother would block.

[Mr Feeny]

The idea that you single handily lost the game while not being allowed to play is ****ing idiotic. It just is. Talking about missing more FTs than the final margin. It was a 2 point game. Several people missed 2 FTs or more. Hell Jerry West missed 4....doesnt mean he makes all 4 and they win the title. Basketball does not work that way.


Be for real. At least a little.

You cant be serious. I don't care if you're a mod; that is plain idiotic. If I have to be banned for criticising your post, then so be it.

West scored FOURTY TWO points. Wilt scored 12. West missed 4 free throws.
Wilt missed more than quadruple the margin.
Quadruple.
You cannot be serious even comparing the two there. That's disingenuous at best. When someone misses 9 free throws and the final score is a 2 point less, we absolutely CAN say that basketball works that way.
This isn't a missed basket or two in mid game that evens out either way. These are NINE misses out of 13. A complete capitulation from someone who is hyped as a top 10 player.

You want to criticise the rest? GO AHEAD. Not one of them gets as hyped as Wilt. If anyone struggled, they deserve some criticism. . As it was, Wilt was the absolute worst of the bunch and if we're holding him to a high standard, then he should hey slaughtered.

We have a Wilt fanboy in this thread who claims that Lebron "quit" in 2010 after he put up 27, 19, 10 but that a 12 point game 7 performance which involved more free throws misses by Wilt than the final margin is ok "because. ..the coach and a stuff"


You people whine about Lebron fans on this board and this is why. We can all SEE that he's held to a much higher standard than anyone who's ever played. Anything but am 30 point triple double and the guy gets killed and gets accused of quitting or choking. Meanwhile, we have people like the Wilt fan lined up making every excuse in the book for a 12 ppg series average and a collapse in game 7 where one player nearly singlehandedly lost his team the series by missing more free throws than Quadruple the margin.

Ban me if you have to or want to. But this is the kind of thing that's just silly. Complain about the Lebron stans all want but the delusion lies with those who can't see through a myopic critique of an all time great who needs to lead every team in points, rebounds, and assists or gets labeled a choker.

[DavisIsMyUniBro]

He didn't single handedly lose it, and the coach has a douchey reputation.

I'll say that lebron, aside from 07-11, seems to be better in the finals than wilt though

But the idea that wilt "wilted" in the playoffs is overblown. It was an era where much more of the scoring came from one on one post ups. Much MUCH more. So of course whenever a guy like Russell or Thurmond guarded him, his numbers would drop. Someone compiled a whole list of it but the forum got taken down.

[Psileas]

Kblaze that is a huge wall of excuse making... This series is one of the worst for a top 10 player ever, you can admit it..

No, it isn't. Here are some worse:

Kobe, 2000
Kobe, 2004
Duncan, 2014
Duncan, 2015
Shaq, 2006
Bird, 1981
LeBron, 2007
LeBron, 2011
Magic, 1983
Kareem, 1982
Kareem, 1987
Kareem, 1988
Kareem, 1989

[Mr Feeny]

wilts grandson outchoked him in 2011 tho

Nobody knows more about choking than a 6/24 stan

[Mr Feeny]

No, it isn't. Here are some worse:

Kobe, 2000
Kobe, 2004
Duncan, 2014
Duncan, 2015
Shaq, 2006
Bird, 1981
LeBron, 2007
LeBron, 2011
Magic, 1983
Kareem, 1982
Kareem, 1987
Kareem, 1988
Kareem, 1989

Some of them were worse performances but not one of them was a bigger choker.
Giving up a 2-0 and 3-2 series lead while missing 9 free throws in a 2 point game 7 loss is the biggest choked of all time.

Nothing is even close. Poor Jerry West having to deal with this