It's crazy how Kobe is the only top 5 player in this league to have at least a ring

[DMAVS41]

Whose for sure been a better player than Kobe this year?

Lebron for sure..
Durant for sure..
Chris Paul arguably..

Has Dwight with his inconsistent game and teetering back and forth between even committing to his own team better? Injured Rose? Injured Wade? Melo ? Dirk ?

Even if you take Dwight, Durant, Lebron, and CP3 Kobe's still top 5. He is ranked above Wade this year by a lot of people and is in a lot of rational posters' top 5s.. you're an idiot for saying he doesnt have a case for it.

I wouldn't laugh off Dirk so much this year. He's been playing great ball the last 2 plus months....while Kobe has been playing inconsistent these last two months.

I rank Kobe higher on this year more on the fact that he hasn't missed a game and he's playing more minutes. But if you are laughing off a guy because Kobe scores 7 more points on 7 more shots a game....you need to think again.

You could make an argument for top 5 for Kobe...or not

durant and lebron have obviously been for sure better. i'd say its pretty clear that Howard is a better player than Kobe at this point as well.

then you could easily make arguments for paul, westbrook, love, and wade over Kobe as well.

so he's hardly a lock for top 5 this year

[DMAVS41]

huh?...you and your brothers forgot in 2000 WCFinals (again the real Championship) 25Pts 7reb 7ast.....18Pts 4reb 7ast 2stl 3blks.....33pts 6Ast 4stl 3Blks...and in Game 7 (the game that started the dynasty) 25Pts 11reb 7ast leading LA back from 15 points...if it wasn't for Kobe once again carrying LA in the crunch...then Snaq would be outta the playoff's again (like he lost with Lebron , penny , Nash)

many NBA superstars play with great teamates...hardly any win at the level Kobe has...


just look at Lebron ...had a great team nearly his whole career.....Durant has had a great team nearly his whole career...wade has had great teams his whole career...Duncan....

many stars play on great teams....everyone in the NBA can play basketball..great players will find a way to win..

deal wit it kids!!

Uhhhhhhhh. No.

Durant has not had a great team his whole career. That started last year and this year. Going forward he might....but you can't make that claim yet.

Duncan has had quality teams no doubt...but slightly less to considerably less talented teams than Kobe at times. His margin of error has been smaller.

Your examples above illustrate my point. A lot of star players would never have gotten the chance to play a game 7 in some of those series if they played like Kobe. Kobe's margin of error has been far greater than the average star. Which is why using "rings" as the main evidence of Kobe's greatness will always be flawed. Doesn't mean to ignore them. Doesn't mean they aren't incredibly impressive. Just means its a somewhat flawed argument when if you put other elite all time great players in similar circumstances they'd pile up the rings as well.

Dirk and Shaq for 8 years? LOL...title after title. Wade and Shaq for 8 years? Same thing.

Accomplishments should always matter...but greatness should be more about how a player actually plays the game of basketball and what he's able to accomplish on the court in terms of impact.

You can't disregard how a player actually plays and look at something a player often can't control as evidence to his greatness.

[DMAVS41]

To jump in on the debate for last year.

Dirk should be known as the best player.

He led an average supporting cast during the regular season to 57 wins. Only 1 less than a far superior Miami team did.

Then in the playoffs he was clearly the best player. He didn't have a terrible series like Wade did in the ECF....and he obviously didn't fall apart like Lebron did in the finals.

You simply can't be known as the best player in the game if you aren't capable of being the best player on a team that wins it all. Last year there simply wasn't a realistic team that Lebron could have led to the title. His play in the finals absolutely removes him from "best player in the game" conversation. Its an insult to the rest of the league that a guy like Lebron could still be known as the best player after the finals.

Again. Lebron led his team to 1 more win in the regular season than Dirk despite having for more help. Then Dirk played much better in the playoffs overall and beat Lebron head to head in the finals after massively outplaying him.

Dirk was the best player last year. The rest is lebron/howard/wade in some order.

[AlphaWolf24]

Uhhhhhhhh. No.

Durant has not had a great team his whole career. That started last year and this year. Going forward he might....but you can't make that claim yet.

Duncan has had quality teams no doubt...but slightly less to considerably less talented teams than Kobe at times. His margin of error has been smaller.

Your examples above illustrate my point. A lot of star players would never have gotten the chance to play a game 7 in some of those series if they played like Kobe. Kobe's margin of error has been far greater than the average star. Which is why using "rings" as the main evidence of Kobe's greatness will always be flawed. Doesn't mean to ignore them. Doesn't mean they aren't incredibly impressive. Just means its a somewhat flawed argument when if you put other elite all time great players in similar circumstances they'd pile up the rings as well.

Dirk and Shaq for 8 years? LOL...title after title. Wade and Shaq for 8 years? Same thing.

Accomplishments should always matter...but greatness should be more about how a player actually plays the game of basketball and what he's able to accomplish on the court in terms of impact.

You can't disregard how a player actually plays and look at something a player often can't control as evidence to his greatness.

WTF? is "margin of error??"...

Kobe has not had more talent??....in fact he has had less talent....his 3rd option was 33 year old Glenn Rice and DFish.

Many other superstars had much more overall talented teams and never won Jack.

Lebron has played on multiple 65 win teams with great talent across the board...and was in the NBA Finals in his 4th season...he played on the most stacked team in History and still lost.

you act like No one in the NBA can play basketball, the margin for error is minimal everywhere...the talent difference you claim is wide is very marginal....all players in the NBA can play..

Dirk had ...Prime Nash, Finley and Jamison ...


your make believe flawed basketball math in order to slight Kobe is silly...


next

[kileer7]

Send in the clowns.

[DMAVS41]

WTF? is "margin of error??"...

Kobe has not had more talent??....in fact he has had less talent....his 3rd option was 33 year old Glenn Rice and DFish.

Many other superstars had much more overall talented teams and never won Jack.

Lebron has played on multiple 65 win teams with great talent across the board...and was in the NBA Finals in his 4th season...he played on the most stacked team in History and still lost.

you act like No one in the NBA can play basketball, the margin for error is minimal everywhere...the talent difference you claim is wide is very marginal....all players in the NBA can play..

Dirk had ...Prime Nash, Finley and Jamison ...


your make believe flawed basketball math in order to slight Kobe is silly...


next

You simply don't know enough about the game to have a conversation.

Dirk did not have prime Nash. In fact, the Nash Dirk had was easily worse than the Suns version. The Nash on the Mavs had 1 great year....2003. And of course the Mavs made the WCF that year and had a great shot winning that series until Dirk went down. Prime Finley? Yea....for a few years. 01 to 03...by 04 Finley had started really wearing down and was no longer in his prime. And did you really just list Jamison? ROFL.....

The fact that you think somebody like Lebron or Dirk or Wade have played with similar help to Kobe throughout their careers shows just how biased you really are.

Its of course expected though....

5 rings....

[HurricaneKid]

Kobe top 5? Hahahaha

[kileer7]

Kobe top 5? Hahahaha

That's the first thought that came to my mind.

(P.S. Alphawolf24 I responded to your post on the Kobe shooting 43% thread )

[AlphaWolf24]

You simply don't know enough about the game to have a conversation.

Dirk did not have prime Nash. In fact, the Nash Dirk had was easily worse than the Suns version. The Nash on the Mavs had 1 great year....2003. And of course the Mavs made the WCF that year and had a great shot winning that series until Dirk went down. Prime Finley? Yea....for a few years. 01 to 03...by 04 Finley had started really wearing down and was no longer in his prime. And did you really just list Jamison? ROFL.....

The fact that you think somebody like Lebron or Dirk or Wade have played with similar help to Kobe throughout their careers shows just how biased you really are.

Its of course expected though....

5 rings....

What converstaion is there?....all you conversate about is how Kobe was just Lucky to have special teammates no one else get's...

Just more BS trying to slight Kobe....

Kobe has won with less talented teams (acroos the board) then most superstars...Look who Magic had....Look who Bird had....look at Jordan especially in the mid 90's with 3 other HOF's....Durant is starting his career on a championship caliber team....Dirk has had HOF teamates and Nash and Finley were great players (no matter how much you try to spin it)

Kobe has helped forge Gasol/Bynum/Odom to become Great....it was a team effort...but it has always started with Kobe's hard work and will to win...

many superstars play with great teammates .....some win at a high level...some do not.

[Fuhrer Hubbs]

Wade played with Shaq, Morning, and Payton. Of course he won one with all those hall of famers.

Here are their ages at the time
Shaq: 34
Mourning: 36
Payton: 37

And now their averages in the Finals,
Shaq: 14-10-3
Mourning: 4-3-0
Payton: 2-2-2

Shaq was still pretty good, and I'd even say he was the teams best player in the regular season that year, but make no mistake Miami had no business winning that title and it was because of DWYANE WADE that they won. After that Finals series noone can say he won just because of his cast.

[Leviathon1121]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJD14KhYF-0

7-9 seconds, Kobe imposes his will to win with incredible defense.

9-11 seconds, Bryant further imposes his will to win by walking to his bench while the play is still happening.

14-18 seconds, Westbrook and the Thunder celebrate Bryant imposing his will to win.

Or perhaps this was Bryant's aesthetically pleasing way of playing as you put it?

Either way, the Thunder were definitely pleased with Kobe's aesthetic pleasantness.

[D-Wade316]

That's taking it too far. I don't disagree with the rest of your post, but I'd say Durant has surpassed Wade at this point. Even last year Durant was pretty awesome in the playoffs and he's gotten substantially better.

Nothing's taking too far or crazy for a player who is a GOAT candidate in the Finals. Fukk. He had a stinker against the Bulls. And completely dominated the Mavs.

[Jolokia]

The Lakers average scoring margin is 2.45 points. 5 of their losses were by less than 4 points.

If Kobe's EFG% was .558, and his attempts were the same, he'd score an extra 4.4 points per game. He'd be putting up a Jordanesque 32.5 ppg, on 50+%. Assuming everything else was equal, the Lakers would have a +6.85 scoring margin, which would put them at 3rd in the league. They'd be scoring 100.89 ppg, which is 3rd in the league (they're currently 17th). If you just added that free 4.4 points to each game, they would have a record 40-15, putting them right up there with the top contenders. When you factor in that some of their loss margins are probably inflated, due to late game free throws, you could probably argue that they might have another 2-3 wins, which would put them at the top of the league.

Obviously, in real life, when your averages improve, you can't just add the extra numbers to each game. Maybe they'd win the same games, just by a bigger margin, and be in the same spot. Maybe opposing defenses would be so scared of Kobe, that they allowed his teammates to score more, and the team would improve more than we could have anticipated. It's impossible to say for sure, but either way, it would have a significant impact on the team, and the way it's perceived. Those couple shots per game might not seem like a big deal to you, but they do have a huge impact, over the course of the season.

Wow...I well thought-out post. Props bro