Lebron Age 31 v. Jordan Age 31

[Micku]

Like Bill Simmons said, LeBron's first 13 years are better than anyone in the history of the NBA (yes including Jordan)

First 13 years? MJ accomplish more if you are going by that route.

MJ in his 13 years resume:

5 MVPs
6 Final MVPs
6 titles
1 DPOY

Stats after 13 years:
31.5 ppg, 5.4 apg, 6.3 rpg, 2.5 spg, 0.9 bpg, 2.8 tovs, 50.5% FG, 33.2% 3pt shooting, 58% TS

Playoffs:

33.4 ppg, 5.7 apg, 6.4 rpg, 2.1 spg, 0.9 bpg, 3.1 tovs, 48.7% FG, 33.2% 3pt, 56.8% TS

LeBron acocmplishments:
4 MVPs
3 Finals MVPs
3 titles

LeBron is right up there tho in stats tho:
27.2 ppg, 6.9 apg, 7.2 rpg, 1.7 spg, 0.8 bpg, 3.4 tovs, 49.8% FG, 34.0% 3pt, 58.1%

Playoffs (MJ been in more playoffs, LeBron missed his rookie year)
28.0 ppg, 6.8 apg, 8.8 rpg, 1.8 spg, 0.9 bpg, 3.5 tovs, 47.8% FG, 32.1% 3pt, 56.7% TS


So, LeBron James still is half way there to catch up MJ's accomplishments at the same time span of being in the league, thus MJ had a more successful career. But in age? He's already there. I'm curious how his game would translate in his 30s and I wonder if he can keep an high level of play. It would be great to see.

MJ's career was done after 13 years tho. LeBron's career could go on for longer. So, it would be cool to see.

[Solefade]

Jordan's first 13 years in the league (84/85 to 97/98):

6 rings, 6 FMVPs, 5 MVPs

Jordan has the hardware but LeBron has just been way more productive, doing more with less, never getting eliminated in the first round, has NEVER been injured.

[Solefade]

First 13 years? MJ accomplish more if you are going by that route.

MJ in his 13 years resume:

5 MVPs
6 Final MVPs
6 titles
1 DPOY

Stats after 13 years:
31.5 ppg, 5.4 apg, 6.3 rpg, 2.5 spg, 0.9 bpg, 2.8 tovs, 50.5% FG, 33.2% 3pt shooting, 58% TS

Playoffs:

33.4 ppg, 5.7 apg, 6.4 rpg, 2.1 spg, 0.9 bpg, 3.1 tovs, 48.7% FG, 33.2% 3pt, 56.8% TS

LeBron acocmplishments:
4 MVPs
3 Finals MVPs
3 titles

LeBron is right up there tho in stats tho:
27.2 ppg, 6.9 apg, 7.2 rpg, 1.7 spg, 0.8 bpg, 3.4 tovs, 49.8% FG, 34.0% 3pt, 58.1%

Playoffs (MJ been in more playoffs, LeBron missed his rookie year)
28.0 ppg, 6.8 apg, 8.8 rpg, 1.8 spg, 0.9 bpg, 3.5 tovs, 47.8% FG, 32.1% 3pt, 56.7% TS


So, LeBron James still is half way there to catch up MJ's accomplishments at the same time span of being in the league, thus MJ had a more successful career. But in age? He's already there. I'm curious how his game would translate in his 30s and I wonder if he can keep an high level of play. It would be great to see.

yep im not talking about the hardware, MJ is definitely GOAT in that regard but why can't we compare LBJ the same way we used to compare MJ to Bill Russell?

I can't imagine how it was like for MJ stans to argue with Bill Russell stans about who's better...


MJ Stans: MJ is better than Bill.
Bill Russll stans: "RINGSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS"

[Dragonyeuw]

I think he has a good chance of it. The gap in age between LeBron and Irving is much more fortuitous than that between Jordan and Pippen. Irving will hit his peak years right when LeBron significantly starts to slow down. LeBron has probably only 3-4 more MVP-caliber years left but he also likely has 2-3 more top 10 level seasons after that in him. Those years will coincide with Irving's peak.

We may have gotten a glimpse of 'peak' Kyrie play in this finals. That said, it took that and Lebron playing his heart out the last 3 games to beat the Warriors. Much depends on the landscape of the league over the next 5 years. If Durant winds up on Golden State( and to be clear, I'd really hate for that to happen), you have to figure a team of Durant, Curry, Thompson, Green would be the favorites for the next 5 years( unless someone from that quartet leaves). The Cavs will likely be the east favorites to make the finals for the next few years barring some major trade/FA signing, the east has been weak for 15 years plus and its safe to assume it will continue to be so for the foreseeable future.

[Micku]

yep im not talking about the hardware, MJ is definitely GOAT in that regard but why can't we compare LBJ the same way we used to compare MJ to Bill Russell?

I can't imagine how it was like for MJ stans to argue with Bill Russell stans about who's better?


MJ Stans: MJ is better than Bill.
Bill Russll stans: "RINGSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS"

It ain't just rings tho. It's the combination of everything. The stats, the team success, the dominance as the individual player on both ends of the floor.

I think MJ was number 1 in ppg in both playoffs and regular season, top 2 in steals by time he retired in 1998 (top 3 currently). He's like top 3-5 in a bunch of categories, even in advance stats and plus/minus. Both in playoffs and regular season. LeBron is number 1 in plus/minus and MJ is number 2.

This is no knock on LeBron or anything, and I don't mean to be all over MJ, but MJ had great performances as individual, probably the GOAT scorer considering the volume. He even owns the record of the most ppg with 41 in the finals. While the Suns weren't the greatest defensive team, they did a have solid wing defensive player. MJ didn't score the "most" points in the finals all together tho. But it's him and Rick Barry that tied with 55 ppg.

And imo, the only performances that matched with his finals and playoffs stats that I've seen are Shaq and LeBron. Especially 2016 Lebron in the finals You still have Kareem and Wilt. But Wilt didn't have the team success and Kareem got the bulk of his rings in the 80s and wasn't as dominate like he was in the 70s.

But 1991-1993 MJ was insane. Hard to beat that.

With that, I'm eager to watch LeBron. What he pulled in both 2015 and 2016 was amazing. He should've been finals MVP in 2015.

[Micku]

We may have gotten a glimpse of 'peak' Kyrie play in this finals. That said, it took that and Lebron playing his heart out the last 3 games to beat the Warriors. Much depends on the landscape of the league over the next 5 years. If Durant winds up on Golden State( and to be clear, I'd really hate for that to happen), you have to figure a team of Durant, Curry, Thompson, Green would be the favorites for the next 5 years( unless someone from that quartet leaves). The Cavs will likely be the east favorites to make the finals for the next few years barring some major trade/FA signing, the east has been weak for 15 years plus and its safe to assume it will continue to be so for the foreseeable future.

F@#k that man. That's worse than the Miami Heat. I wonder if they will receive the same hate tho? The hate on the Heat was fun. They might never lose a finals again.

And I agree with you that we may have seen a glimpse of peak Kyrie. He is only 24? So, historically speaking from what we seen of other players, he hasn't reached his peak yet. Most of the time, players peak around 27-29ish.

[K Xerxes]

This is wishful thinking. LeBron is still going strong. What is there to suggest he is going to suddenly fall off? LeBron likely has 3-4 more MVP caliber seasons in him. His numbers this year were 25/7/7 on 52%; his numbers in 2015 were 25/6/7 on 49%. He has fallen off from his peak but remains dominant.

Too much is made out of mileage. It is a factor but these are people, not cars. Chronological age matters much more than mileage. Kobe was still an elite player in 2013 when he was 34 and it wasn't his odometer that took him from elite status but an injury.

He is still going strong because he is an athletic god. Since what I consider to be his athletic peak (09), he has certainly declined athletically, but is still able to dominate the league with his brute strength and playmaking ability. But there are signs of fatigue and a loss of his first step etc.

The issue with comparing his career trajectory with Kobe and Jordan is that, although they were also very athletic in their primes, they are capable of making jumpshots reliably, either for midrange or from three. LeBron has yet to display a consistent jumpshot from anywhere. Unless he develops one he will not age as gracefully.

I'm not saying he is going to drop off dramatically. I still expect him to be MVP calliber seasons, but he just went 3/6 in his last 6 years on a contending team in the softer conference. This is not going to get better as he ages. Especially with the likes of Golden State, SA (with Kawhi), OKC (dependent on Westbrook and Durant) and other young teams emerging. It is simply unrealistic to expect him to win many more championships as the man.

[Roundball_Rock]

I think MJ was number 1 in ppg in both playoffs and regular season

His career averages are inflated by him not having a normal career. Players with a normal career see their career averages dip due to their final few years. Kareem and Wilt are prime examples of this.

It's the combination of everything. The stats, the team success, the dominance as the individual player on both ends of the floor.

That is subjective. Surely you can see how the above can be used to argue a number of players over Jordan. What people get annoyed about MJ stans and rings is they consistently will cite Jordan having more rings than other players he is being compared to as if it is dispositive. We have seen this frequently over the past week where, because LeBron has half the rings, MJ stans say LeBron is only "halfway" to Jordan's legacy. (Amusingly when it comes to Russell, who has nearly double the rings, suddenly rings are no longer the be all to MJ stans.)

The stats you cite often go back to what I said at the beginning of this post: averages. If you compare prime to prime Wilt>Jordan as does Kareem. Other players were dominant on both ends too, like Wilt and Kareem. Russell clearly had more team success but one could argue Kareem, Magic had as much or more team success than Jordan. LeBron may wind up with as much or more team success as well. Moreover, team success if heavily influenced by luck. Jordan had exquisite luck that his fans never mention. He managed to have no serious playoff injury to his team during his team's contending years. That is amazing. What other all-time great went that long without a serious playoff injury? Plus his championship period came shortly after the demise of the Celtics and Lakers dynasties and shortly before the rise of the Spurs and Lakers (Shaq/Kobe) dynasties. The Bulls overlapped with the Pistons as contenders but only briefly, and the Pistons barely won 50 games by 91' when the Bulls finally beat them.

What irks many about MJ proponents is they may it seem as if MJ=GOAT is an objective fact when in reality it is subjective and as valid as saying KAJ or Wilt or Russell are GOAT.

[ArbitraryWater]

Bron will never win another MVP, though. Thats over. Not the energy/stamina of '96-'98 MJ.

[Lebron23]

Bron will never win another MVP, though. Thats over. Not the energy/stamina of '96-'98 MJ.

He can win his 5th MVP next season. He won't play in the Olympics. He has a 4-5 months rest.

[Micku]

His career averages are inflated by him not having a normal career. Players with a normal career see their career averages dip due to their final few years. Kareem and Wilt are prime examples of this.

Not really...I mean, it is somewhat inflated, since MJ pretty much only had 13 years and retired. Came back with the Wizard and his stats got hindered because of it. With that said tho, look at the other stars as well and their averages in their prime or first 13 years. Wilt only played 14 seasons. In those first 13 seasons, he averaged 31.5 ppg. MJ averaged 31.5 also in his first years also. And MJ played more seasons than Wilt and still have the most ppg average.

When Wilt was 35, he averaged 14.8 ppg on the best FG% of the league. When MJ was 34-35, he averaged 28.7 ppg as the leading scorer of the league.

Kareem is also the same way. In his first 13 years, he averaged 27.8 ppg. MJ averaged more. MJ with his full 15 seasons just averaged ppg than Kareem in his 15 season.

Granted, this doesn't mean that Wilt couldn't have scored more if he wanted to or Kareem. It just that it isn't as inflated. Even when MJ in his 30s, he was still leading the league in scoring as oppose to Kareem and Wilt.

An abnormal career would be Wilt retiring before a decade or Kareem. They would have crazy stats. But in your reference as a player get older, they would see their averages go down is entirely true. But MJ averaged more than both of them.

That is subjective. Surely you can see how the above can be used to argue a number of players over Jordan.

...
Moreover, team success if heavily influenced by luck. Jordan had exquisite luck that his fans never mention. He managed to have no serious playoff injury to his team during his team's contending years. That is amazing. What other all-time great went that long without a serious playoff injury? Plus his championship period came shortly after the demise of the Celtics and Lakers dynasties and shortly before the rise of the Spurs and Lakers (Shaq/Kobe) dynasties. The Bulls overlapped with the Pistons as contenders but only briefly, and the Pistons barely won 50 games by 91' when the Bulls finally beat them.

Oh yeah, don't get me wrong. This entire thing is subjective. I personally don't think there is an objective best b-ball player of all time. I'm simply arguing that MJ's accomplishments and his stats are like a dream NBA career. Not only did he had crazy stats, once he was on top, he never looked down. You can't say the same thing for Wilt, Kareem, or Russell I think.

Wilt had to changed how he played and not score as much to get other ppl involved. Russell was a defensive player, who score a bit, but wasn't the best scorer at his position. Kareem was great, but he didn't win that much in his prime. His longevity was great. And by time the mid 80s, he may not have been the best player on his team.

MJ won in his prime, and won by getting the scoring titles almost every season. Ppl thought you couldn't do that with the exception of Kareem. Everyone considered MJ the best player. Dominated on both ends of the floor. What other player dominated the game like that as the best offensive player and one of the best defensive players in their era?

And in terms of teams, you could argue that the Lakers, the Celts, and Pistons were lucky that they didn't face the Bulls in their prime as well. They clearly couldn't stop MJ, but it's a team game. I also don't think MJ faced quality teams like he did in the 80s. A lot of them were stacked with HOFs. But there are a couple of flaws with that. Those teams also never faced each other in their prime. The Lakers didn't face the quality teams like the Celtics did either on their way to the finals.

The teams in the 90s that I thought were super talented were the Suns 93, 95-96 Magic, and the late 90s Lakers. But they got beat.

[Dragonyeuw]

F@#k that man. That's worse than the Miami Heat. I wonder if they will receive the same hate tho? The hate on the Heat was fun. They might never lose a finals again.

And I agree with you that we may have seen a glimpse of peak Kyrie. He is only 24? So, historically speaking from what we seen of other players, he hasn't reached his peak yet. Most of the time, players peak around 27-29ish.

Yes, but he's also 5 years into the league. And I think this finals experience is going to do alot for him in terms of taking that next step to super-stardom. I think you could start seeing 'peak' play in the next season or two, health-permitting.

[Roundball_Rock]

mean, it is somewhat inflated, since MJ pretty much only had 13 years and retired. Came back with the Wizard and his stats got hindered because of it. With that said tho, look at the other stars as well and their averages in their prime or first 13 years.

By abnormal I meant he didn't play as long as he could have. He didn't have to retire early due to injuries like others did or disease like Magic. He just didn't feel like playing twice. He retired at his peak and then retired again as the reigning MVP. Has any reigning MVP ever retired in any sport? If he played continuously and compiled 17-18 seasons his numbers would be lower.

When Wilt was 35, he averaged 14.8 ppg on the best FG% of the league. When MJ was 34-35, he averaged 28.7 ppg as the leading scorer of the league.

Exactly. How about comparing their prime versus prime numbers? Wilt and KAJ have a clear edge on MJ then, especially outside of scoring.

The other thing about age is MJ fans like to point to longevity based on age but ignore his retirements. What would KAJ have averaged at 34 or 35 if he took two years off? (Yes, MJ played another sport but it was in the minors and a sport that is not nearly as taxing as basketball.)

Oh yeah, don't get me wrong. This entire thing is subjective. I personally don't think there is an objective best b-ball player of all time. I'm simply arguing that MJ's accomplishments and his stats are like a dream NBA career. Not only did he had crazy stats, once he was on top, he never looked down. You can't say the same thing for Wilt, Kareem, or Russell I think.

Those are fair points, although I would note Jordan did in fact lose in between the two threepeats. That said, 6 rings in 7 seasons is excellent and probably will not be equaled in the future. However, the caveat is there was no rival team on par with the Bulls during that window. Russell and Wilt had to face each other's teams, KAJ and Magic had to face the Sixers, Celtics, and Pistons. Bird had the Lakers, Sixers and Pistons.

MJ had exquisite timing. The Bulls' championship years came after the demise of the Celtics as an elite team. The Bulls overlapped with the Pistons somewhat but really they were only comparable in 1990. By 91' the Bulls were clearly better and the Pistons had diminished. Similarly, the Bulls did face the Lakers but had the fortune of Worthy going down. The Bulls completely missed the Spurs and Shaq-Kobe dynasties. All of this was narrowly. If MJ was born 2-3 years earlier or later would he have won 6 rings in 7 years? I don't think so. He would still win a lot but it would be harder to win against these great teams than it was to defeat the Sonics or Blazers.

Kareem was great, but he didn't win that much in his prime.

He had key injuries during several playoff runs in his prime. Jordan miraculously went the entire period the Bulls were contenders without that.

And in terms of teams, you could argue that the Lakers, the Celts, and Pistons were lucky that they didn't face the Bulls in their prime as well.

I agree.

The teams in the 90s that I thought were super talented were the Suns 93, 95-96 Magic, and the late 90s Lakers. But they got beat

I agree. I would add the Sonics and Jazz to that list.

[FireDavidKahn]

Jordan has the hardware but LeBron has just been way more productive, doing more with less, never getting eliminated in the first round, has NEVER been injured.

And LeBron hasn't gotten his dad killed.

[J Shuttlesworth]

I find the Age vs. seasons played argument interesting.

You can't discount the fact that Jordan took two years off, and you can't use that as a slight to LeBron.

If you go purely by age, it seems LeBron clearly has the better resume. Same amount of rings, 1 more MVP, same FMVPs, Saying "He has 4 finals losses though" is irrelevant because Jordan was getting bounced earlier in the playoffs than LeBron was. Getting the Cavs to the finals in 07 was impressive.

Obviously by seasons played, Jordan gets the nod, but Jordan didn't skip college and go straight to the NBA, which shouldn't be a slight against LeBron either.

Age WOULD be a more accurate indicator, but I get the sense that LeBron has more mileage on him, and obviously won't have the baseball break to rest up a bit. I don't think there's any real doubt though that if LeBron has a very succesful next few years and gets 2-3 chips, he's 1b