Dunking Data For 1988-1993: MJ is the Goat In-Game Dunker for Wing Players

[3ball]

i haven't watched much Dr. J and it shows with my predictions that he would have less dunks than Lebron.

i figured they were both one-foot leapers but Dr. J was doing it with less room... so... he'd have less dunks right??

but apparently i've overlooked Dr. J the same way a lot of people overlook Jordan - that's how mainstream Dr. J was to me i suppose...

Maybe Dr. J dunked off two-feet more than I remember, and perhaps his less bulky physique allowed him to mitigate the greater traffic better - regardless, i need to brush up on my Dr. J..

When i was looking up elgin-steps recently (also called euro-steps) i got the sense that he had a tremendously optimal physique for sliding in the lanes... his elgin-step looked super-smooth and like, silkier even than the guys that do the elgin-step today.

But my first times watching hoops was watching this guy.. Dr. J appears to be in a league of his own, but Jordan was right with him or #2.

I believe Dr. J and Jordan are the only wings that could have accumulated high frequency of posters seen in the collections below, simply because his volume was up there and even exceeded Jordan, AND he played in the no-spacing era, even more so than Jordan.

GIF's OF 105 CHEST-TO-CHEST POSTERS BY MICHAEL JORDAN (almost all in the halfcourt)

Top 15 MJ Dunks Over Multiple Contesting Defenders
Random Posters 1
Random Posters 2
Random Posters 3
Random Posters 4
Random Posters 5
Random Posters 6 (for 6)
Old-Man Chest-to-Chest Posters
Partial Collection of MJ Dunks Over All-Time Great Centers
Various Two-Handed Posters Over Defenders (two-foot takeoffs)

[fpliii]

I haven't watched enough of Dr. J yet either to form an opinion. I guess maybe a lot depends on how he was getting his dunks (going baseline, driving the paint, in transition, etc.).

As you said though his frame wasn't too bulky, so that probably help him get through walls of defenders.

[c5terror]

Captain Marvel!!!

[Rake2204]

I haven't watched enough of Dr. J yet either to form an opinion. I guess maybe a lot depends on how he was getting his dunks (going baseline, driving the paint, in transition, etc.).

As you said though his frame wasn't too bulky, so that probably help him get through walls of defenders.

This takes absolutely nothing away from Julius Erving and Michael Jordan but I've often wondered if the manner with which they were able to palm the ball with such incredible ease may have boosted their dunk numbers.

For most players, those who cannot palm the ball like Erving and Jordan, dunking features a relatively limited striking window. Generally, it's a singular process. One's approach, gather, swing, elevation, extension, and hammer are all synced up to maximize momentum and power. If that process is interrupted or environmental factors aren't just right, it could be tougher to execute a dunk, resulting in a fingerroll or layup instead.

When one can palm like Jordan and Erving (and to a lesser extent, Pippen), the dunking availability window opens much wider. The process is shorter, can be started in more unique situations, and can be more readily altered en route. When regular folks pull the line of, "I can dunk a volleyball, but that's about it", that often is not so much about a volleyball fitting in the hoop easier as it is about one being able to palm the ball readily and thus not needing to jump quite as high, worry about losing control or throwing the ball in within the right window (super palm dunks can be wrist plops).

In my personal experience, I generally cannot palm a ball. I can still dunk, but the situations within which I can dunk in games are generally limited (fast breaks, relatively clean initial steps in the half court to build up momentum). But on that odd day of the year when someone brings down a rubber Under Armour ball that I can kind of palm like Dr. J, it feels like every single drive is a dunking opportunity. Stuffing the ball into my mitt and guiding it is much, much easier.

Example of the stuff-and-control:



And here's a example of a super palm, from an angle that'd be tough to get a non-palm finish over the rim:



All that said, and this is very important, I would like to re-iterate that takes nothing away from any dunker. Moreover, I think it's also very important to point out that at least in Jordan's case, even if we took away all his super palming dunks, he'd still be a dunking genius and likely would have out-dunked virtually all of his contemporaries. The vast majority of the dunk gifs in this thread have featured non-palm finishes anyhow, as most of his two-foot, chest to chest attacks were swing-backs with a lot of build up and momentum, from high above the rim.

The point is, while his non-palms were ever present and spectacular, accounting for the majority of his dunks, the super palming ability may have allowed him to finish with a dunk in situations that otherwise would not have been possible. He basically may have had some bonus flushes courtesy of that hand size (it seemed Jordan performed more of these as he got older).

On the other hand, Erving seemed to more heavily rely upon palm dunks. And again, to be clear, Walter Herrmann could palm the ball like Dr. J, but it doesn't mean he could automatically dunk all the time. It's the combination of such an incredible ability to palm the ball with historic and legendary ability, athleticism, explosion, and elevation that leads to a Julius Erving or Michael Jordan. They could dunk in many situations when others could not. Whereas they might have had more dunks than most others anyway, I think the palm ability gave them even a little more cushion.

[scm5]

Kobe only got 65 dunks per season during his prime? I thought Kobe averaged more than that, he is definitely one of the most fearless in-game dunkers.

[fpliii]

Kobe only got 65 dunks per season during his prime? I thought Kobe averaged more than that, he is definitely one of the most fearless in-game dunkers.

I think he said the 65/season number covers only 02-09. He might have gotten more in 99, 00, 01. basketball-reference.com is only accurate from 02-present (they have 01 data, but the play-by-play is incomplete).

[SamuraiSWISH]

Kobe only got 65 dunks per season during his prime? I thought Kobe averaged more than that, he is definitely one of the most fearless in-game dunkers.

He made more statement dunks. Kobe had less vertical than Jordan, LeBron, and even Wade / T-Mac so you could see his determination on those drives to the rim when he was successful.

But even at Kobe's athletic prime circa 2000 - 2006 he often favored the jumper, and shyed away from taking it to the basket consistently. So it wasn't fearlessness. It's one of the reasons his FG% is like a 5 point drop from MJ / LeBron / Wade even if being a better shooter than all but Mike. It's also probably why he's had such longevity.

MJ's monster hands really did allow him a better opportunity at finishing at the rim with dunks considering he could palm it off the bounce. As well as his broad shoulders which could shed defenders. Combined with his 48 inch vertical, compared to Kobe's 38 inch vertical? And his stunning ability to leap off one foot, or two, and insanely quick bunnies getting off the floor ... particularly off jump stops. And an already quickest first step in history for his position? It's a no brainer as to why Jordan finished at the rim more than any other wing or guard in history.

Plus MJ was the most fearless of all.

[Dro]

You're telling me VINCE CARTER isn't on this list? We want hard data and sources...

and stop posting gifs of MJ traveling like this:



Dude moves his feet 50 times before dropping the dribble.

Dude, you're just hating.....Its not a good look......

[Dro]

Looking at 3ball's gifs it just strikes it home for me that not only is Jordan's pure vertical fairly impressive, but what's more notable about it is just the sheer speed he can rise up off the floor.

It just seems like he has springs in his legs, very difficult to guard when a guy can accelerate and leap off the floor so quickly, you can't angle him off. A lot of guys can jump high, but they need more time/space to gather themselves to do so, Jordan is almost like a video game cheat code the way he can elevate on a dime and get really good explosion on the jump from almost any leaping angle.

They must be putting something in the water in North Carolina.

Sums up Jordan PERFECTLY.........

[3ball]

He made more statement dunks. Kobe had less vertical than Jordan, LeBron, and even Wade / T-Mac so you could see his determination on those drives to the rim when he was successful.

But even at Kobe's athletic prime circa 2000 - 2006 he often favored the jumper, and shyed away from taking it to the basket consistently. So it wasn't fearlessness. It's one of the reasons his FG% is like a 5 point drop from MJ / LeBron / Wade even if being a better shooter than all but Mike. It's also probably why he's had such longevity.

MJ's monster hands really did allow him a better opportunity at finishing at the rim with dunks considering he could palm it off the bounce. As well as his broad shoulders which could shed defenders. Combined with his 48 inch vertical, compared to Kobe's 38 inch vertical? And his stunning ability to leap off one foot, or two, and insanely quick bunnies getting off the floor ... particularly off jump stops. And an already quickest first step in history for his position? It's a no brainer as to why Jordan finished at the rim more than any other wing or guard in history.

Plus MJ was the most fearless of all.

Fearlessness is very important when it comes to getting posters.. Jordan and Dr. J had no fear, so they got the most posters.


[COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR]

They both were also explosive off one or two legs and their physiques were conducive for sliding between defenders... and of course the big hands..
.

[Dro]

I was more surprised that Blue Edwards was playing enough to snag 91. I liked his dunk style. Didn't realize he was nearly a 30 minute guy that early on.

Sidenote, Stacey had an underrated 360 attempt in the '92 contest. I mean, I guess it's properly rated because he missed twice, but it would have be sweet if he'd put it down: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_CYSU5JVKmU#t=0m24s

Good point on Blue Edwards. I remember on those old Jam Session videos, he had some nice dunks......I'm also surprised he got to 91 in a season.....

[Dro]

(10,000 char, continued...)

You're GOAT for this bro.......This needs to be saved anytime anyone questions why this man is GOAT. You have it straight from one the best defensive and best centers in the History of the game...Arguably a top 10 player breaking down Jordan's game to a T......

[Dro]

This takes absolutely nothing away from Julius Erving and Michael Jordan but I've often wondered if the manner with which they were able to palm the ball with such incredible ease may have boosted their dunk numbers.

For most players, those who cannot palm the ball like Erving and Jordan, dunking features a relatively limited striking window. Generally, it's a singular process. One's approach, gather, swing, elevation, extension, and hammer are all synced up to maximize momentum and power. If that process is interrupted or environmental factors aren't just right, it could be tougher to execute a dunk, resulting in a fingerroll or layup instead.

When one can palm like Jordan and Erving (and to a lesser extent, Pippen), the dunking availability window opens much wider. The process is shorter, can be started in more unique situations, and can be more readily altered en route. When regular folks pull the line of, "I can dunk a volleyball, but that's about it", that often is not so much about a volleyball fitting in the hoop easier as it is about one being able to palm the ball readily and thus not needing to jump quite as high, worry about losing control or throwing the ball in within the right window (super palm dunks can be wrist plops).

In my personal experience, I generally cannot palm a ball. I can still dunk, but the situations within which I can dunk in games are generally limited (fast breaks, relatively clean initial steps in the half court to build up momentum). But on that odd day of the year when someone brings down a rubber Under Armour ball that I can kind of palm like Dr. J, it feels like every single drive is a dunking opportunity. Stuffing the ball into my mitt and guiding it is much, much easier.

Example of the stuff-and-control:



And here's a example of a super palm, from an angle that'd be tough to get a non-palm finish over the rim:



All that said, and this is very important, I would like to re-iterate that takes nothing away from any dunker. Moreover, I think it's also very important to point out that at least in Jordan's case, even if we took away all his super palming dunks, he'd still be a dunking genius and likely would have out-dunked virtually all of his contemporaries. The vast majority of the dunk gifs in this thread have featured non-palm finishes anyhow, as most of his two-foot, chest to chest attacks were swing-backs with a lot of build up and momentum, from high above the rim.

The point is, while his non-palms were ever present and spectacular, accounting for the majority of his dunks, the super palming ability may have allowed him to finish with a dunk in situations that otherwise would not have been possible. He basically may have had some bonus flushes courtesy of that hand size (it seemed Jordan performed more of these as he got older).

On the other hand, Erving seemed to more heavily rely upon palm dunks. And again, to be clear, Walter Herrmann could palm the ball like Dr. J, but it doesn't mean he could automatically dunk all the time. It's the combination of such an incredible ability to palm the ball with historic and legendary ability, athleticism, explosion, and elevation that leads to a Julius Erving or Michael Jordan. They could dunk in many situations when others could not. Whereas they might have had more dunks than most others anyway, I think the palm ability gave them even a little more cushion.

I get what you're saying. To be fair, I think a lot of NBA players can palm the ball.....maybe to certain extents but you see guys holding the ball out away from the defender all the time like Jordan used to do. Off the top of my head, Iverson, Carter, T-Mac, Augmon, honestly I used to Mark Jackson palm the ball without much trouble. Most of these guys are bigger than the average human, even the point guards so their hands are probably bigger than most also.

[Rake2204]

I get what you're saying. To be fair, I think a lot of NBA players can palm the ball.....maybe to certain extents but you see guys holding the ball out away from the defender all the time like Jordan used to do. Off the top of my head, Iverson, Carter, T-Mac, Augmon, honestly I used to Mark Jackson palm the ball without much trouble. Most of these guys are bigger than the average human, even the point guards so their hands are probably bigger than most also.

Yep, you're absolutely correct, which was kind of why I brought Walter Herrmann up. I think the varied degree by which someone can palm a ball makes a difference. Many players can palm a ball comfortably, but not to the degree of the likes of Jordan, Erving, Kawhi Leonard, and Walter Herrmann. Those guys can't just palm a rock comfortably, they can hold it like a grapefruit, which makes a huge difference.

That said, as we know, Walter Herrmann did not lead the league in dunks. And even Kawhi Leonard does not dunk on the level of Erving or Jordan. I believe that is because of Erving and Jordan's otherworldly ability, athleticism and dunking ability (palming or not). I was merely saying that when one has that legendary level of athleticism & and ability and then we add the ability to palm a ball in the manner they can (not just comfortably, but like a glove), I think it could lead to those guys getting more dunks in scenarios that otherwise may not be available to many other dunkers, though that alone likely does not make up the difference.

[Dro]

Yep, you're absolutely correct, which was kind of why I brought Walter Herrmann up. I think the varied degree by which someone can palm a ball makes a difference. Many players can palm a ball comfortably, but not to the degree of the likes of Jordan, Erving, Kawhi Leonard, and Walter Herrmann. Those guys can't just palm a rock comfortably, they can hold it like a grapefruit, which makes a huge difference.

That said, as we know, Walter Herrmann did not lead the league in dunks. And even Kawhi Leonard does not dunk on the level of Erving or Jordan. I believe that is because of Erving and Jordan's otherworldly ability, athleticism and dunking ability (palming or not). I was merely saying that when one has that legendary level of athleticism & and ability and then we add the ability to palm a ball in the manner they can (not just comfortably, but like a glove), I think it could lead to those guys getting more dunks in scenarios that otherwise may not be available to many other dunkers, though that alone likely does not make up the difference.

Definitely agree.......