Lebron vs Hakeem.

[DMAVS41]

Hakeem was one of the most unfortunate top 10 type players as far as teammates go, and didn't always have championship-caliber coaches either.

Houston was supposed to contend for years with the twin towers, but Sampson declined rapidly with injuries starting in Hakeem's 3rd year and was traded midway through his 4th year.

Hakeem did raise his game in the playoffs as much as any all-time great I can think of though except for maybe Jordan.

'86 run was obviously remarkable, especially for a 2nd year player, but look at 1987, nearly willed his Rockets single-handedly to a game 7 vs Seattle with 49/25/6 in a double OT loss and I remember Ralph Sampson missing a free throw either late in regulation or the 1st OT that would have probably sealed the win. It's been a while since I've seen that game, but I also remember a non-call when a Sonic goaltended Hakeem's shot which would have given him a shot at a 3 point play, late, instead, he made both free throws.

Then in '88, he lost in the 1st round, but averaged 38/17 including a 41/26 game 2 and 40/15 in the elimination game. And this was vs a very talented Mavs team that took the champion Lakers to 7 in the WCF.

In '93, he lost in OT of game 7 of the WCSF to a stacked Sonic team with some bad calls most likely being the difference.

In '91, they won 52 games, but ran into the Lakers in the 1st round. They also played the Lakers in '90 during the first round, though I'll concede that Houston should have been better than 41-41. '92 team underachieved, partially due to chemistry since this was the period when all of the negatives were being brought up about Hakeem, but they were 40-30 with Hakeem and just 2-10 without him, so this says as much about how much he often carried Houston as anything.

Only time he played poorly in series he lost other than '99 when he was 36 were '90 and '96, and he was swarmed by multiple defenders in both series. Seattle was known for their trapping and double teaming, and there was a stat mentioned in the Laker series about how often Hakeem was doubled and it was astounding. He was a beast defensively in the Laker series as well, iirc and both those teams were undoubtedly better and more talented.

Hell, a lot of people thought the '96 Lakers would beat Houston in the 1st round since Magic had returned, Houston had struggled with a lot of injuries and the Lakers had HCA. Pretty much every key Rocket missed at least 10 games in '96. Hakeem missed 10 games, Drexler missed 30, Horry missed 11, Cassell missed 21, Mario Elie missed 37 and Kenny Smith missed 14.

Looking at Hakeem's actual performances throughout the years, I have a hard time faulting him for playoff losses. I'm fine with him being criticized for the '90 and '96 series, and he wasn't great in the '91 series either, though you'd have a hard time convincing me he should have beat Magic's Lakers or the Kemp/Payton/Schrempf Sonics.



How are they not valid?

Because Lebron plays infinitely better defense than both Bird/Magic.

And the playoff histories of Bird/Magic....especially Bird... are hardly without fault.

[Pointguard]

Just stuck out to me....

In some of those games he had:

23/10/5 7 blocks and 2 steals

32/17/ 9 blocks and 3 steals

24/11/8 blocks

28/13/7/5/4

18/17/ 5 blocks 4 steals

28/11/ 6 blocks


Hell he had 32/16/5/4/4 vs us when he was older.

I remember them playing the Rockets...hakeem did not just watch Jordan beat him. He usually beat Jordan when they were both top of their games in the early 90s.

Hey, when Jordan came back he imitated his game big time. But postseason, when all the chips are down... I kind of think that's different. While I love Hakeem's game, he wasn't the best center around, even then, and the two great centers were both spectators.

[Quintilianus]

You dont feel the same way about All-Star MVP or anything else?

Here is what you missed about POTM which i said earlier:

"Having more POTM than somebody else in theory is kindof useless.... but should not be disregarded because this tells a very important story/context...
Because the POTM is the same criteria as MVP & given out by the same establishment, a player who had many more POTM is a player who has been the MVP of the month (which is not a very short time) many more times...... a player who has won the most POTM in a season usually ends up with the MVP aswell......... a player who has won the more POTMs for his career has therefore probably ended up with more MVPs aswell......
In Lebrons case this story is very correct....

...and if that player (Lebron) has many more MVPs that means that player has been a MORE VALUABLE PLAYER many more years & months than the player compared to (Hakeem)........ which hints at the probability of Lebron being a more impactful player than Hakeem was.... at least for a longer time.... for you to win the MVP your productiveness/individual talent/skill needs to translate to more TEAM SUCCESS/WINS than anybody else.....

MVP is a very important award.... and to get it you will need to unfortunately be POTM in that season many times, no matter how useless it is it still leads you towards the award which is not so useless."



No, i said i was not gona clown/troll like i did long time ago.... but the so called Lebron "***riding" will remain as long as he plays the way he does, i love great basketball and especially when that player plays it the right way.... With that being said, i love Hakeem aswell...

I am sorry but i dont think its a crime to like Lebron or any other player.... as long as you are coherent, factual, logical and objective in your assumptions then its no problem whatsoever.....

After seeing so many posters here claiming "Its not even close between Lebron & Hakeem" i thought i would retaliate with this thread and discuss this.... in ISH you would usually be called a Lebron dickrider (feeling hit?), a Lebron stan, whatever even if you by just simple logic, objectivity and facts proved why that claim is not actually true......... like i did here...

I am absolutely getting tired of getting called a Lebron ***rider when the truth is i am actually talking to mostly Lebron haters (fans who are in denial and do/say anything to downplay him and overrated anybody who is compared).... look around...

Definitely not, that's a very flawed logic.
That's like saying that Duncan is not one of the best defenders ever because he doesn't have a DPOY.
MVPs are worthless, they're made for mass public, doesn't even have any official criteria, is chosen by a board of idiots that work at espn.
If you want anything with individual awards, FMVP is worth like five times more than a regular season mvp.

[DMAVS41]

Definitely not, that's a very flawed logic.
That's like saying that Duncan is not one of the best defenders ever because he doesn't have a DPOY.
MVPs are worthless, they're made for mass public, doesn't even have any official criteria, is chosen by a board of idiots that work at espn.
If you want anything with individual awards, FMVP is worth like five times more than a regular season mvp.

MVP's are not worthless. They are not the end all be all, but it shows a player separating himself from his peers.

Lebron has done that an absurd amount already in his young career. He really might win 7 or more MVP's...which, not matter what you think, would be amazing...and does matter.

It's not the act of winning MVP...it's what the award represents and what a player has to do to get one. They aren't easy to get...

[ShaqAttack3234]

Because Lebron plays infinitely better defense than both Bird/Magic.

And the playoff histories of Bird/Magic....especially Bird... are hardly without fault.

Yes, but it's an opinion whether that makes more of a difference than their offense.

Nobodies playoff histories are without fault, but both Bird and Magic have a better history in the playoffs than Lebron. Not only more rings, but despite some bad performances, none that are puzzling the way Lebron's 2011 finals or last 3 games vs Boston are, in addition to back to back years where he lost shooting 35-36% and averaging between 5-6 turnovers.

Right now, I'm sort of waiting to see how Lebron handles the playoffs because after his history, I still have to see him do really well again, even after a truly great playoff run and ring. As of now, he's a remarkable player, and as long as he sustains it in the playoffs, he'll rank really high for me.

[Quintilianus]

MVP's are not worthless. They are not the end all be all, but it shows a player separating himself from his peers.

Lebron has done that an absurd amount already in his young career. He really might win 7 or more MVP's...which, not matter what you think, would be amazing...and does matter.

It's not the act of winning MVP...it's what the award represents and what a player has to do to get one. They aren't easy to get...

This is his first MVP that he's kinda seperated from the league. And durant fell out of this mostly because OKC started blowing everybody out and he sat out quarter by quarter, it's not like he's infinitely better than Durant.
MVP caliber season is the same shit as MVP.
Nobody is celebrated for mvps besides lebron, I just don't get this, seems like espn and his fans are trying to turn everything that was traditional about basketball around.

[dh144498]

This is his first MVP that he's kinda seperated from the league. And durant fell out of this mostly because OKC started blowing everybody out and he sat out quarter by quarter, it's not like he's infinitely better than Durant.
MVP caliber season is the same shit as MVP.
Nobody is celebrated for mvps besides lebron, I just don't get this, seems like espn and his fans are trying to turn everything that was traditional about basketball around.

[Quintilianus]

Bird is really underrated all-time as a defender. Dude could defend at an above average level, in his prime, before braking his back he probably was as good as lebron is now as a defender. Maybe not as versatile, but versatility isn't used so often to be a very major factor
This board likes stats, check out his defensive rating before he destroyed his back (hint: It's first number is 9)

[DMAVS41]

This is his first MVP that he's kinda seperated from the league. And durant fell out of this mostly because OKC started blowing everybody out and he sat out quarter by quarter, it's not like he's infinitely better than Durant.
MVP caliber season is the same shit as MVP.
Nobody is celebrated for mvps besides lebron, I just don't get this, seems like espn and his fans are trying to turn everything that was traditional about basketball around.

What you think of MVP's is not really my concern. I simply made the point that they do matter...and they are hard to win.

However, Lebron has proven to be a lot better than Durant. Which is saying a lot since Durant has really improved his game this year tremendously. He's having a 28/8/5 season on some of the best efficiency ever...and he's improved his defense...on a 60 win team.

And Lebron is going to be a unanimous MVP....LOL

[Pointguard]

I see the Lebron/Hakeem comparison like this:

If I had five fighters, say young clear headed Ali, and four drones and you have foggy headed Mike Tyson (make him equal in talent with Ali but more power up close and his upper body movement make his unhittable by ONE drone) who has a duplicated four drones. Ali is tied into his drones and can get them to go to spots where they are most effective. Ali can also adapt, change strategies, morph into his drones at any given time for a quick moment - making them faster and able to hit from further distances. They even work together to make a better defense than Mike's team. Mike Tyson has no connection with his drones but looks like the best fighter.

When you have the dimension of thinking, adaption, versatility, all skills, great team skills on both sides of the ball, being deadly on all parts of the court, got a connection with all teammates, its a different level than the I'm great around the basket game. Tho, Hakeem could pass it wasn't a team amp type of thing. I'm not even giving Hakeem the team defensive edge, much less the offense.

[DMAVS41]

Yes, but it's an opinion whether that makes more of a difference than their offense.

Nobodies playoff histories are without fault, but both Bird and Magic have a better history in the playoffs than Lebron. Not only more rings, but despite some bad performances, none that are puzzling the way Lebron's 2011 finals or last 3 games vs Boston are, in addition to back to back years where he lost shooting 35-36% and averaging between 5-6 turnovers.

Right now, I'm sort of waiting to see how Lebron handles the playoffs because after his history, I still have to see him do really well again, even after a truly great playoff run and ring. As of now, he's a remarkable player, and as long as he sustains it in the playoffs, he'll rank really high for me.

Like I said...I just want consistency. I think it's a very weak argument to take Hakeem over Lebron and not Bird/Magic using playoff consistency...

But, of course, we have to see Lebron's career play out. He's got to win this year for sure to really get into this debate for real. A loss in the playoffs this year...combined with 10 and 11...and it will be just too much to overcome.

I've written about it in the past....one more black mark for Lebron in his prime and it's going to be hard for me to ever rank him above Duncan (who I have 6th all time)

[K Xerxes]

If you want anything with individual awards, FMVP is worth like five times more than a regular season mvp.

Finals MVPs is a hugely flawed reward and only really tends to distort what actually happened. First, it only captures the finals, not the entire gruelling regular season schedule or the first three rounds of the post season. It (except in one exceptional case) rewards a player on the WINNING team, but there may have been an incredible player on the losing team that was actually the most valuable, but lost out to the better TEAM.

Parker won the Finals MVP in the 2007 Cavs sweep, but Duncan was the best player and the leader for them in the playoffs. Duncan will be known as winning 4 rings and 3 as the man, when in actual fact he won 4 as the man with Parker having one good series against the vastly inferior, unorganised and inexperienced Cavs.

Shaq's dominance in 00-02 is in history with his 3 finals MVPs, but apart from Kobe fanatics and people that have watched these series carefully, Kobe was apparently just a 'role player'. Bull, Kobe was an integral part in 2001 and 2002, almost as much so as Shaq. You get nonsense like 'Shaq carried Kobe to three titles' because people only look at finals MVPs.

Magic had that historic 42-15-7 game at center to close out the '80 finals, but everyone forgets that Kareem was the best player and leader of that team throughout the season and the playoffs. Magic averaged 18-9 in the playoffs, Kareem had 32-12. Magic had an incredible finals, and he'll be remembered as the MVP of those finals, but will anyone remember Kareem's dominant display of 33-14 in 5 games in the finals? Or will they just remember that Kareem won 6 rings with 'only' 2 as the man.

[All Net]

What you think of MVP's is not really my concern. I simply made the point that they do matter...and they are hard to win.

However, Lebron has proven to be a lot better than Durant. Which is saying a lot since Durant has really improved his game this year tremendously. He's having a 28/8/5 season on some of the best efficiency ever...and he's improved his defense...on a 60 win team.

And Lebron is going to be a unanimous MVP....LOL

and Durant doesn't get much attention oddly.

Lately people have talked more about Melo.

[DMAVS41]

and Durant doesn't get much attention oddly.

Lately people have talked more about Melo.

Small market....Duncan syndrome. If you transported the OKC team to NYC...it would be different.

[Quintilianus]

What you think of MVP's is not really my concern. I simply made the point that they do matter...and they are hard to win.

However, Lebron has proven to be a lot better than Durant. Which is saying a lot since Durant has really improved his game this year tremendously. He's having a 28/8/5 season on some of the best efficiency ever...and he's improved his defense...on a 60 win team.

And Lebron is going to be a unanimous MVP....LOL

Yeah, but he's not that better than durant as everybody is making out to be. I'd say it's like 5 percent difference between them, if lebron is 100, than Durant is 95, all he needs is to grow a pair of real balls, not the fake ones he's trying to demonstrate in this season. But maybe i'm too quick to judge, maybe he'll prove me wrong in the playoffs and play like a real man should.
Unanimous as in none of those great espn minds are going to vote for anybody else? Wow, now that's an achievement for ages, i'm going to tell my kids about it for sure...
This is just ridiculous, MJ would've been considered by a wide majority the best even without his 5 mvps, Kareem's legacy wouldn't have been hurt either, i'm not even gonna mention other players, because I would be required to bring in context, and that's the thing that LeBron fans hate like a sparkly twilight vampire hates the sun