Observations of Lebron's game

[3ball]

MJ age 22: swept twice in the first round
LeBron age 22: lost in 2nd round, swept in finals

Obviously, if 22-year old Lebron had faced the Spurs' championship team and #1 defense in the first round, he would've been swept in the first round instead of the Finals.

That's what happened to 22-year-old MJ - he faced a championship team and #1 defense in the first round (1986 Celtics), due to superior competition in the Eastern Conference.. But his stats were literally TWICE that of Lebron's.

Here are both players' performance against championship teams and #1 defenses at 22 years old:

Jordan vs. 1986 Celtics: 44/6/6 on 51%
Lebron vs. 2007 Spurs:[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 22/7/6 on 35%

[Jasper]

I'd have to say OP has an argument.

All of the coachs in the NBA , if asked which would you prefer, having bron or not having bron.....

what would you think they would say ????

/

[3ball]

All of the coaches in the NBA , if asked which would you prefer, having bron or not having bron.....

what would you think they would say ????

/

That's a poor counterargument to anything raised in the OP..

Like, I'd rather have Andrew Bogut than not have him, but that doesn't mean he holds a candle to Jordan..

The reality is that Lebron's ball-dominant style doesn't foster growth in teammates, superior strategy, or an optimal brand of basketball for the team to play - otoh, most championship-level teams like the Warriors or Spurs use cutting edge strategy and play an optimal brand of basketball.. Specifically, they move the ball and allow role players to make playmaking decisions.. Guys like Diaw and Patty Mills don't just wait around for Duncan to toss them a dime - instead, Mills and Diaw are tasked with making plays just like Parker and Duncan are - ditto for guys like Shaun Livingston or Barnes..

And ditto for everyone that played in the triangle - the triangle was an equal-opportunity offense, as Phil Jackson describes here.. Every player got the chance to catch it on the post, turn-pivot, explore all the options and make a play - the lesser players like Kerr and Longley normally handed off, but they had the power to make a play if they chose.

Consequently, role players like Mills, Diaw, Kerr, and Longley play better and have a bigger impact than their more talented Cavs counterparts (shumpert, jr smith, mosgov, tristan thompson), who are just tricks waiting on Lebron to toss them a dime.. That brand of basketball has never won, and never will win..

But see, that's the problem - if the Cavs played like the Spurs or Warriors, Lebron wouldn't get to dominate the ball more than starting PG's like he does now.. That's the reason the Cavs don't run a more optimal offense - Lebron's ball-dominant, low-assisted style from a frontcourt position prevents his teams from ever using optimal, cutting edge strategy... And it's waaaay too late to change Lebron's game - any coach of Lebron must cow-tow, be a bitch, and simply ALLOW Lebron-ball to be played.

What are you going to do at this point in Lebron's career, be like "hey lebron, we need you to play off-ball like a normal SF okay"... He'd call Dan Gilbert immediately, get the coach fired, and all hell would break loose in the offseason while Lebron carefully weighed his team-hopping options.

Instead of having the capacity within his game to foster the growth of teammates, superior strategy, and an optimal brand of basketball for the team to play, Lebron can only go 2/4 by teaming up with unprecedented supporting talent (i.e. a 10-time all-star and 20/10 player as his 3rd option, Bosh).. Lebron is really a Karl Malone-level player that teamed up with Drexler and Mchale to go 2/4.
.

[ralph_i_el]

That's a poor counterargument to anything raised in the OP..

Like, I'd rather have Andrew Bogut than not have him, but that doesn't mean he holds a candle to Jordan..

The reality is that Lebron's ball-dominant style doesn't foster growth in teammates, superior strategy, or an optimal brand of basketball for the team to play - otoh, most championship-level teams like the Warriors or Spurs use cutting edge strategy and play an optimal brand of basketball.. Specifically, they move the ball and allow role players to make playmaking decisions.. Guys like Diaw and Patty Mills don't just wait around for Duncan to toss them a dime - instead, Mills and Diaw are tasked with making plays just like Parker and Duncan are - ditto for guys like Shaun Livingston or Barnes..

And ditto for everyone that played in the triangle - the triangle was an equal-opportunity offense, as Phil Jackson describes here.. Every player got the chance to catch it on the post, turn-pivot, explore all the options and make a play - the lesser players like Kerr and Longley normally handed off, but they had the power to make a play if they chose.

Consequently, role players like Mills, Diaw, Kerr, and Longley play better and have a bigger impact than their more talented Cavs counterparts (shumpert, jr smith, mosgov, tristan thompson), who are just tricks waiting on Lebron to toss them a dime.. That brand of basketball has never won, and never will win..

But see, that's the problem - if the Cavs played like the Spurs or Warriors, Lebron wouldn't get to dominate the ball more than starting PG's like he does now.. That's the reason the Cavs don't run a more optimal offense - Lebron's ball-dominant, low-assisted style from a frontcourt position prevents his teams from ever using optimal, cutting edge strategy... And it's waaaay too late to change Lebron's game - any coach of Lebron must cow-tow, be a bitch, and simply ALLOW Lebron-ball to be played.

What are you going to do at this point in Lebron's career, be like "hey lebron, we need you to play off-ball like a normal SF okay"... He'd call Dan Gilbert immediately, get the coach fired, and all hell would break loose in the offseason while Lebron carefully weighed his team-hopping options.

Instead of having the capacity within his game to foster the growth of teammates, superior strategy, and an optimal brand of basketball for the team to play, Lebron can only go 2/4 by teaming up with unprecedented supporting talent (i.e. a 10-time all-star and 20/10 player as his 3rd option, Bosh).. Lebron is really a Karl Malone-level player that teamed up with Drexler and Mchale to go 2/4.
.

It's funny, When LeBron first went to the Heat, the % of his baskets that were assisted dropped significantly....for 1 season. Then it went up to career high level the next three years. Dropped off again when he had an entire new crew of teammates. I'd bet he scores more off the ball next season by a significant amount.

[90sgoat]

Here's the deal.

We all appreciate 3Ball taking the time to meticously back up his claims about Lebron and MJ because we know a lot bball fans are fat basement dwellers who never played the game.

If you know and play basketball the eye test has been enough for years to tell that Lebron simply isn't that skilled a basketball player.

When you get to my age where you start to wear khaki pants and drink alone in the evening, you don't get phased by hype anymore.

Watching Lebron is has been clear for years that:

1) Lebron lacks a first step, this means he needs a pick to penetrate, which makes him predictablen and requires a power forward who can shoot the long jumper (Bosh, Love). Most guys who can shoot long jumpers are afraid of the post, so Lebron led teams will never have a bruising low post power forward.

2) Lebron doesn't pass into the post, which means you never have to guard the entry pass, which could have given him more room for that first step.

3) Lebron has poor body control and flexibility. He gets around this by committing offensive fouls on almost every drive, but it also means he actually finishes quite poorly around the basket if a big man is there (Hibbert, Duncan).

4) Lebron has no off ball game, which means you can generally guard him straight up with one guy during long stretches (Igoudala, Kawhi). Had he been able to move off ball, he could have gotten a lot of mismatches going on, but he can't.

5) Lebron bricks every mid range. Lebron has no jumper.

In fact Lebron needs an overwhelming amount of ref help in the form of bailout calls on his below the basket layups and his stiff arm drives.

I've said it again and again, Lebron is not elite tier, he doesn't have the elite skill of almost all top 10 players. He has no skyhook, no unblockable fade away, no finger roll, no ability to hit contested jumper, no ankle breaking crossover.

That means Lebron simply cannot be trusted to 'go get a basket'. Teaming up with Wade was all about that. Wade can get you a basket because he is skilled. Lebron is like Pippen, who needs Kukoc to get you a basket.

It's no shame, he is still a great player, just not a top 10 player, he is in the same tier as the Karl Malones, Moses Malones and Charles Barkleys. So close, but not good enough.

[livinglegend]

Get a job!

[3ball]

WTF? (Lebron is a Karl Malone-level player???)

If Karl teamed up with a super-team in a weak conference, he'd disappoint and go 2/6 just like Lebron..

Lebron's game is on the Karl Malone-Barkley-Jerry West level... He's not on the MJ/Magic/Larry level.. The OP describes exactly why - for one, Lebron isn't capable of good efficiency at high volume like MJ, because he's bad at the additional mid-range and isolations required of high volume shooters - this means Lebron isn't capable of winning a CHAMPIONSHIP while shooting high volume like MJ did.

Compared to Bird - other than defense, I can't think of one aspect of Lebron's game that is better - Bird is better in virtually every category.. I guess Lebron plays PG better - but it's suboptimal for the SF to play PG, so that's not an advantage - the other team WANTS Lebron playing PG, just like they want him shooting a lot (because then he'll shoot poorly).

As for Magic... .... Lebron averages HALF the assists of Magic - and his attempts to play PG from the SF position hurt team chemistry.. Also, he has half the leadership and half the clutch of Magic.

[ralph_i_el]

If Karl teamed up with a super-team in a weak conference, he'd disappoint and go 2/6 just like Lebron..

Lebron's game is on the Karl Malone-Barkley-Jerry West level... He's not on the MJ/Magic/Larry level.. The OP describes exactly why - for one, Lebron isn't capable of good efficiency at high volume like MJ, because he's bad at the additional mid-range and isolations required of high volume shooters - this means Lebron isn't capable of winning a CHAMPIONSHIP while shooting high volume like MJ did.

Compared to Bird - other than defense, I can't think of one aspect of Lebron's game that is better - Bird is better in virtually every category.. I guess Lebron plays PG better - but it's suboptimal for the SF to play PG, so that's not an advantage - the other team WANTS Lebron playing PG, just like they want him shooting a lot (because then he'll shoot poorly).

As for Magic... .... Lebron averages HALF the assists of Magic - and his attempts to play PG from the SF position hurt team chemistry.. Also, he has half the leadership and half the clutch of Magic.

I agree that LeBron's jack-of-all-trades nature makes it harder for him to fit in with some teammates due to skill overlap. I agree that sometimes his style of play isn't the optimal strategy for team basketball.

HOWEVER.....he's been a one man army of destruction for over a decade now. He has weaknesses....but he has so many strengths too. Karl Malone isn't going to 5 straight finals with essential 3 entirely different lineups.

We all know how good Wade and Bosh were, but next to LeBron, Wade isn't going to get to handle the ball as much, and Bosh isn't going to get the elbow touches he would get otherwise....because why would you when you have LeBron who's just pure better?

He's a top-10 player sorry. MJ's the GOAT, not many people are going to debate you on that one man. I'm not doing this for the trolling, I'm doing it for the truth.

[Uncle Drew]

Hey 3Ball,

I signed up just to say we're millions of lurkers watching around the world who appreciate the consistent smackdowns of these dumbass kids and their hero Bran.

How pathetic and how obvious. 3ball takes another L.

[Smoke117]

I've never experienced anything like this...someone who isn't just beating a dead horse...he's literally beating the dust of the bones that was that dead horse. Michael Jordan is better than Lebron james...nooooooo, really?

I've never understood why any of you even humor this prick, but then I thought about it...and I do the same thing with Kobe stans. I guess its just something to waste time away while your bored, no? lol.

[3ball]

LeBron's jack-of-all-trades

He's not a jack of all trades - if he was a jack of all trades he would be able to play in whatever fashion fits with teammates - but he can't do this, because he can only play as the primary ballhandler.

MJ and Kobe were jack of all trades because they were elite in ALL aspects, not just as the primary ballhandler like Lebron - MJ and Kobe were elite off-ball, post, mid-range and isolations, whereas Lebron is average to bad in these areas.. MJ and Kobe's elite ability in all areas allowed them to fit in better with teammates - they didn't have ANY of the chemistry problems you complain about with Lebron.

Karl Malone isn't going to 5 straight finals with essential 3 entirely different lineups.

Why not if he team hops like Lebron in a really weak conference?... WITHOUT team-hopping, Malone went to 2 straight Finals after beating Popovich's 56-win Spurs led by Duncan/Robinson in 1998 WCSF, and then beating Shaq's loaded Lakers in WCF - that's better competition than any of Lebron's trips through the soft eastern conference.

but next to LeBron, Wade isn't going to get to handle the ball as much, and Bosh isn't going to get the elbow touches he would get otherwise....because why would you when you have LeBron who's just pure better?

It's amazing you can complain that "so-and-so couldn't play well with Lebron because of this".... "and so-and-so couldn't play with Lebron because of this..."

How can you say these things without realizing that MJ and Kobe never had these issues????... Again, they were elite in ALL areas of the game, not just primary ballhandler, so they could fit with teammates better and had more capacity to overcome a wider range of opponent strategies.

Btw - when you say "why would you when Lebron is way better"...... It shows how little you understand the game that you think a team can win a championship with Lebron making all the decisions on offense... That's laughable.. You must be so shocked everytime Lebron loses... ... I'm not..

[ralph_i_el]

Btw - when you say "why would you when Lebron is way better"...... It shows how little you understand the game that you think a team can win a championship with Lebron making all the decisions on offense... That's laughable.. You must be so shocked everytime Lebron loses... ... I'm not..

yeah, Bron will never win a championship

[3ball]

yeah, Bron will never win a championship

The Heat went 2/4 due to talent, but the times they lost, their chemistry and brand of basketball was far worse than their opponent (dallas, spurs).

The lesser brand of basketball falls primarily on Lebron's shoulders - as the franchise player, he's most responsible for the brand of basketball his teams are capable of.. Unfortunately, his lack of elite ability outside of primary ballhandler prevents optimal chemistry and a high brand of basketball.

Ray allen's walk-off in 2013 merely postponed a trend where opposing teams play a superior brand of basketball and render lebron's stats empty - they're empty whether he takes a passive 17 fga on all 3-and-D to protect efficiency (2014 Finals), or whether he doubles the fga to 34, but the additional isolations and midrange required of high volume shooting tanks his efficiency (2015 Finals).

[20Four]

yeah, Bron will never win a championship

you leBRONZE stans are hilarious, no wonder yall work at McDonald's sucking each other off....

[ralph_i_el]

you leBRONZE stans are hilarious, no wonder yall work at McDonald's sucking each other off....

I dislike LeBron. I'm just being real.

I root in this order:
Wizards
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Kevin Durant
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.
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UCLA players