When talking about scorers how do you account for how much a guy shoots?

[Kblaze8855]

Its an old argument I think there is a good Pat Riley quote to explain....


Some reporter asked him about Nique and Worthy who were often compared in the 80s. The Lakers drafted Worthy #1 and the Hawks got Nique #3 with Terry Cummings between. Anyway they always got compared and Riley was picking Worthy(as he had to). Someone mentioned that Nique was leading the NBA in scoring and Riley said


"He misses more shots in a season than James even takes".

Which...wasnt far from true.

Nique had 2 seasons missing 13 shots a game....James in 1985(around the time it was asked) took 13 shots a game. He later took more but Rileys point still kinda stands.

How do you account for that?

The obvious answer is "Eye test" but even the people who talk that up(rightfully id like to add) usually seem unwilling to put scoring ability and actual points scored in different places.


Worthy had 2 games in his career taking 28 shots. The first two games of the season Magic had retired. So he never had big totals. But nobody who saw him questioned his ability. James Worthy was a complete scorer. Spot up after getting open off the ball. Elite post game. All time great fast break player. Elite face up player. He had 3 point range if he felt like using it. Could use either hand. Could give him the ball and get out of the way or let him Klay Thompson it and have 30 on 15/18 shooting with 6-7 dribbles. This is James in the finals vs the Bad Boys....Magic out for the series...Kareem is 42 and playing his final 20 minutes.

































He did more(scored 40 on 17-26 shooting) but I think thats plenty to make the point.






How do you judge a guy as a scorer when he was on too good a team to require him to score a lot? Or when he simply did not play selfish ball? Even when Magic and Kareem were gone....he had 14 assists the first game with the Lakers as his team. He got hurt...played like half of that season. Retired shortly having gone back to being a 6th man.

Guy just didnt often attempt to pour it on. How do we honestly compare his numbers to someone who might shoot 40 times?

Not the my issue is really Nique vs Worthy....they are just the comparison that first came to mind. We legit have stars who shoot twice as much as others...when both are scorers. Not like....some guy shooting twice as much as Ben Wallace.

We have watched Harden have all these explosions....which take obvious talent. He took 39 and 38 shots the last two games. Reggie Millers career high was 29 and he had 57 points. Harden might take more threes this season than Reggie Miller took shots one year(he played 81 games too). Harden misses 13.9 shots a game. Reggie took less shots a game than Harden misses 7 times from 88 to 2000. Barkley had 3 all star seasons like that. Many many maaaaany more legends can say the same but we dont need to go down a list. And its not as simple as him taking twice the shots means he should score twice as much.

For example....

Dwight in 2011 took 13 shots a game for 23 points. He scored 7ppg of that at the line. Lets be clear....im not saying that if Dwight took the shots Harden does hed average 40ppg. There are many factors. 3s being a major one of course.

Plus you have to consider the skill it takes to get 40 looks in an NBA game so it isnt as simple as "If everyone took 25 shots everyone scores 30+".

But I feel the situation forces you to look a little deeper.

Jordan...Kobe....I dont believe they really peaked skills/athletic ability wise when their PPG did. Kobe was closer but his polish was off the charts around 08 and 09...and he was still athletic. Jordan was a better scorer in the 90s than the mid/late 80s and I feel thats pretty clear to people who watched him. Harden...Tmac...feels like they actually hit their skills/physical ability peak together when they had their best years. Im not sure Harden from 3 years ago does this if he simply took 25-30 shots a game.

So it varies case to case. Sometimes its coaching too like Harden getting Dantoni or Hakeem getting Rudy T instead of Don Chaney who had him taking like 15-16 shots a game before Rudy told him to attack all game. You have Phil who had Jordan change his style a bit but eventually let him cut loose a little more. You can go all the way back to Tex Winter asking Elvin Hayes to pass(and being told no...and that it was like asking Babe Ruth to bunt) or Wilt who gets clowned for not scoring when he took 7 shots a game as opposed to when hed take 40.

Obviously guys who shoot less arent just automatically worse at scoring. No doubt Wilt could have had way more of those 66 points on 28-35 or whatever shooting games he would have when someone said he couldnt score anymore on the Lakers. Of course Kobe could have had more 06 and 07 style games in other years if he just took 35-40 shots more often.

But we just cannot get ourselves off PPG.

It takes a close look...and we all know most people dont look all that close.

Im wondering how close you look.

When Barkley scores 28 a game on 16 shots and Melo does 28 on 22...or Worthy takes less shots than Nique misses....or Harden takes more threes than HOF 2 guards take shots period in some years...

Manu in what many consider his best season(05)....took 10.5 shots a game. So...he only scored 16 a game. How do you even discuss him as a player vs Harden with such a discrepancy in freedom to showcase your ability? Or maybe he is free....and chooses to let others do more? How do you factor in AI taking 27 shots a game vs Vince Carter taking 20?

What do you do in these situations?

The guy scoring more usually isnt doing it out of just...selfishness. Usually out of need. But does one prove to be better because hes in position to need to showcase the full range of his ability?

If the Heat sent Wade for Shaq instead of Odom...and Kobe/Wade played together in the mid 2000s......is Kobe worse because hed never need to have all those 06 and 07 explosions? Of course not.

But a lot of people would have seen him as less impressive...just as the Rockets having say....Bradley Beal right now? Harden scores a lot less....isnt worse...but scores less. Less people would be blown away by him because his totals wouldnt beat you over the head.

How do you account for explosions from players called on to explode when you compare them to players who have no reason or chance to play that way?

[Jasper]

looks like previous post (OP) is a book writer.

My take on the heading is when I look at the stat sheet I look at percentage , boards , as well as assists.
TO's and amount of time translates to points against that players team , so you might as well subtract 4 points that player made 2.

Steals and/or blocks tells me the guy is also active on D.
When I watch a game , I like to see how much a player is involved with his teammates(,)

[andgar923]

I got shit when I stated Worthy was a better offensive player than Lebron.

[andgar923]

MJ considered himself the more potent/dangerous scorer in 91 as per Kobe. Kobe said MJ and he would discuss who'd win in a one on one between Kobe's peak and MJ's 91 version.

Yet his stats didn't reflect MJ being the better scorer that season compared to previous seasons.

[Kblaze8855]

Worthy isnt a better offensive player than Lebron though he had a better 22 feet and in halfcourt scoring skillset. A lot of players can say that though.

Lebrons edge is usually in the open court(less of an advantage over Worthy than people would think), with his outside shooting over previous era guys, and his playmaking when hes got the shooters teams usually keep these days.

He could have a better impact on your teams offense than Worthy but be less capable of making a single shot you need created under many circumstances.

You just hand them both the ball at 18 feet vs a set defense and say score Worthy will score a little more often than Lebron will id say. Lebron did have a while there where hed get a layup every time he put his head down though.

[3ball]

Let's get the goat stuff out of the way first:

MJ has the best offensive efficiency of any high-scoring perimeter player ever

That why he's goat - he did more (volume) of a good thing (efficiency) than anyone in history

But in general, you have to look at a player's:

1) offensive efficiency
2) whether teammates are playing near capacity (near their career highs)
3) whether the team playing a winning brand of ball

Let's look at a few examples:

- AI and Westbrook shoot poorly, teammates don't play to capacity, and the brand of ball isn't championship level [COLOR="Navy"](suboptimal PPG)[/COLOR]

- Curry had great efficiency, teammates play to capacity, and the team plays the best brand of ball [COLOR="Navy"](optimal PPG)[/COLOR]

- MJ had good efficiency, teammates played to capacity, and the team played the best brand of ball [COLOR="Navy"](near-optimal PPG)[/COLOR]

- Kobe had okay efficiency, teammates played to capacity, and the team played the best brand of ball [COLOR="Navy"](mostly-optimal PPG)[/COLOR]

- Lebron has good efficiency, teammates don't play to capacity and the team's brand of ball proved inferior to numerous teams in the championship [COLOR="Navy"](partially suboptimal PPG)[/COLOR]

- Harden has good efficiency and teammates play to capacity, but the brand of ball (low team assists) hasn't proven viable for a Finals run yet [COLOR="Navy"](partially-suboptimal PPG)[/COLOR]

Btw - kblaze, sdot and other lebron fans make these threads about shot attempts because they think lebron is an equal scorer to MJ, but MJ just shot more... Otherwise, why would they broach this topic at all??.. it makes no sense because lebron wouldn't even average 25 with mj's shot profile (mostly two's), and his efficiency would suck
.

[Kblaze8855]

Why would I talk about shot attempts at all if not for Lebron?

You realize people like Johnny Sic and I were having this discussion here before Lebron was in the NBA right? You dont think this came up with AI was taking 9-10 more shots a game than guys like Pierce? I distinctly remember Johnny and I talking about Antione Walker and Pierce as the best tandem outside Shaq/Kobe and my point being Walker just shot a lot but wasnt that good a scorer. Today its on my mind because Harden just took 40 shots and my cousin texted me about it.

You might wake up with Lebron on the mind....not everyone does. Take that shit elsewhere.

[game3524]

How do you account for explosions from players called on to explode when you compare them to players who have no reason or chance to play that way?

I generally don't compare them.

Manu is a good example of this. He was a very efficient player and was highly productive per minute basis. But there is no chance in hell Manu could ever replicate what Iverson did for those Sixers team, he just wasn't that level of a shot creator and his body likely won't hold up.

[TheCorporation]

Another good topic by KBlaze, who is always dropping bangers. Thanks brother

It sort of reminds me a bit of the other that thread where I think you said, "How much talent can you hide? For example Harden as a 6th man on OkC compared to now."

[jstern]

I've always found the number of shot a player takes interesting, because people view it in a simplistic way, but it's never that simple.

Team composition being equal, player A takes 20 shots, B 15 shots. People say, "Well if player B just took five more shots than he would be just as good as a scorer as player A."

But then you ask yourself, why is it that year after year he doesn't? A lot of people can't get to that point.

When I first started studying Jordan's game on my VHS, the number one thing that I picked up was that made or missed, his ability to create a quality shot, even when double or triple teamed was so amazing.

Ask player B to try and take as many shots, not even getting double teamed as much, and the result is not going to be the same.

[game3524]

I've always found the number of shot a player takes interesting, because people view it in a simplistic way, but it's never that simple.

Team composition being equal, player A takes 20 shots, B 15 shots. People say, "Well if player B just took five more shots than he would be just as good as a scorer as player A."

But then you ask yourself, why is it that year after year he doesn't? A lot of people can't get to that point.

When I first started studying Jordan's game on my VHS, the number one thing that I picked up was that made or missed, his ability to create a quality shot, even when double or triple teamed was so amazing.

Ask player B to try and take as many shots, not even getting double teamed as much, and the result is not going to be the same.

Shot creation is a skill that gets underrated by fans. It is even worse now in the analytic era.

I have heard people say that Steph could do what Harden is currently doing and I am not sure about that. Steph is a good shot creator in his own right, but I don't think he is at Harden's level in that department. The only guys I think who are on James is level in that regard in recent memory are Kobe and AI.

[ImKobe]

Nique played on average/bad teams while Worthy had the GOAT PG feed him the ball for efficient looks.

[sdot_thadon]

Nice topic Op, I've always taken the attempts into consideration but it can't always be 1:1 comparison. I think its works best when discussing guys of similar talent levels and that play similar roles in the hierarchy of their team. So I wouldn't use it when looking into a role player vs a primary scorer. Or even an elite primary scorer vs an average one, but I suppose there are special cases that warrant it regardless of those conditions. One that has always intrigued me was older guys saying Russell could score pretty well if it had been his role on the Celtics, but they needed his defense more to be championship caliber.

[TheCorporation]

Nique played on average/bad teams while Worthy had the GOAT PG feed him the ball for efficient looks.

Good, objective point coming from a Lakers fan.

[TheCorporation]

I remember way back in the day my friend was a HUGE Allen Iverson and Steve Francis fan but when we'd look at the box score AI would drop his 30 but it would take him damn near 30 shots as well.

Was he efficient? Hell no
Was he the teams best scorer? Yes
But...
Could there have been a more balanced, efficient measure of attack? I think so