Lebron increases his teams assist ratio

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It's circumstance more than anything which has lead to 3 of his 4 finals loses

Being supremely outmatched in team talent and injuries

What was the difference between 2013 Wade and 2014 Wade? Honestly, not much... Lebron's gameplan or.. "Lebron Ball", is not at fault for any of his finals losses. Didn't you see the ****ing stats for 2015 when Lebron was on the bench? It was horrific. Bosh and Wade did a disappearing act in 2013 and 2014... The defense (which has nothing to do with Lebron ball) was to blame for 2014, as well as Wade and Bosh underperforming.

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Wade simply couldn't consistently produce like he could in 2011 and 2012

I understand Bosh was playing a role, but 0 points in a game 7 is just unacceptable... Can't blame that on "Lebron ball"

[ballinhun8]

3ball murked this thread.

[aj1987]

you right... only bron lowers the apg....

and he lowers ppg too so he's very unique in this...

he's really the nba's goat leech - no one gets his stats more by reducing stats of teammates.

Meh, he didn't get to play with the GOAT coach or even a good-elite coach. Heck, P-Jax >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Silas + Brown + Spo + Blatt

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We saw what happened when Wade was actually healthy and was playing up to standards when Lebron ball was in full swing in 2013.... 27 game win streak...

There's nothing special about "Lebron ball"

It's just drive and kick, and create opportunity. When you have another quality scorer/ball handler, it meshes in PERFECTLY with Lebron ball. Just look at how damn well Kyrie was playing with Lebron. Circumstance and injuries are what have been the major cause of 2/6... not Lebron or Lebron ball.

[3ball]

actually, he lowered it by 3ppg if we count the 95/96 season as his MJ being back to his real self.

MJ lowered Pippen's PPG by 1... Pippen's highest PPG alongside MJ was 1 point lower than his year without MJ.

Whereas the highest PPG of Lebron's teammates alongside Lebron is 10 ppg lower in some cases... It's a massive difference.

And again, MJ increased the APG of Pippen by 2, whereas Lebron lowers the APG of his teammates by a super-ton - and that's the point of the thread - Lebron lowers the APG of his teammates - he's unique in this... AND he lowers PPG - he lowers PPG and APG to get his stats, whereas MJ didn't need to do that to get his.

[Nash]

MJ lowered Pippen's PPG by 1... Pippen's highest PPG alongside MJ was 1 point lower than his year without MJ.

Whereas the highest PPG of Lebron's teammates alongside Lebron is 10 ppg lower in some cases... It's a massive difference.

And again, MJ increased the APG of Pippen by 2, whereas Lebron lowers the APG of his teammates by a super-ton - and that's the point of the thread - Lebron lowers the APG of his teammates - he's unique in this... AND he lowers PPG - he lowers PPG and APG to get his stats, whereas MJ didn't need to do that to get his.

using your logic, lebron raises the wins for his teammates.
isn't that the most important thing?

[dhsilv]

.
[COLOR="Blue"]In addition to PPG, Lebron significantly lowers the APG and assist % of his teammates:[/COLOR]


[COLOR="Green"]Wade apg and assist % before Lebron (04'-10'): 6.6, 34.8% [/COLOR]
[COLOR="Red"]Wade apg and assist % with[COLOR="White"]...[/COLOR] Lebron (11'-14'): 4.7, 25.5% [/COLOR]


[COLOR="Green"]Bosh apg and assist % before Lebron (04'-10'): 2.2, 10.5%[/COLOR]
[COLOR="Red"]Bosh apg and assist % with[COLOR="White"]...[/COLOR] Lebron (11'-14'): 1.6, [COLOR="White"].[/COLOR]8.0% [/COLOR]

[COLOR="Green"]Irving apg and assist % before Lebron (12'-14'): 5.8, 33.2[/COLOR]
[COLOR="Red"]Irving apg and assist % with[COLOR="White"]...[/COLOR] Lebron (2015):[COLOR="White"]...[/COLOR] 5.2, 25.0%[/COLOR]


[COLOR="Green"]Kevin Love apg and assist % in MIN: 2.5, 13.0%[/COLOR]
[COLOR="Red"]Kevin Love apg and assist % in CLE:[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 2.2, 10.7%[/COLOR]

[COLOR="Green"]Mo Williams apg and assist % before Lebron: 6.3, 30.0%[/COLOR]
[COLOR="Red"]Mo Williams apg and assist % with[COLOR="White"]...[/COLOR] Lebron: 4.1, 20.1%[/COLOR]

FYI...

[COLOR="Green"]Pippen apg and assist % with[COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] Jordan 91'-93': 6.5, 24.5[/COLOR]
[COLOR="Red"]Pippen apg and assist % w/out Jordan 94'-95': 5.4, 23.7[/COLOR]
[COLOR="Green"]Pippen apg and assist % with[COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] Jordan 96'-98': 5.8, 25.1[/COLOR]



[COLOR="Blue"]Since Lebron lowers the assists of his teammates, all of TEAMS have low assist rates:[/COLOR]


POSSESSIONS PER ASSIST = TEAM POSSESSIONS PER GAME/TEAM APG (A HIGHER NUMBER MEANS LESS PASSING)


2015 Cavs: 92.3/22.1 = [COLOR="red"]4.18[/COLOR]
2014 Heat: 91.2/22.5 = [COLOR="Red"]4.05[/COLOR]
2013 Heat: 90.7/23.0 = [COLOR="Red"]3.94[/COLOR]
2012 Heat: 91.2/20.0 = [COLOR="Red"]4.56[/COLOR]
2011 Heat: 90.9/20.0 = [COLOR="red"]4.55[/COLOR]
2010 Cavs: 91.4/22.4 = [COLOR="Red"]4.08[/COLOR]
2009 Cavs: 88.7/20.3 = [COLOR="Red"]4.37[/COLOR]
2008 Cavs: 90.2/20.0 = [COLOR="Red"]4.51[/COLOR]
2007 Cavs: 90.8/20.8 = [COLOR="Red"]4.37[/COLOR]
2006 Cavs: 89.8/19.0 = [COLOR="Red"]4.72[/COLOR]


1998 Bulls: 89.0/23.8 = [COLOR="Blue"]3.74[/COLOR]
1997 Bulls: 90.0/26.1 = [COLOR="Blue"]3.45[/COLOR]
1996 Bulls: 91.1/24.8 = [COLOR="Blue"]3.67[/COLOR]
1993 Bulls: 92.5/26.0 = [COLOR="Blue"]3.56[/COLOR]
1992 Bulls: 94.4/27.8 = [COLOR="Blue"]3.40[/COLOR]
1991 Bulls: 95.6/27.0 = [COLOR="Blue"]3.54[/COLOR]
1990 Bulls: 96.7/26.5 = [COLOR="Blue"]3.65[/COLOR]
1989 Bulls: 97.0/27.0 = [COLOR="Blue"]3.59[/COLOR]
1988 Bulls: 95.5/26.2 = [COLOR="Blue"]3.65[/COLOR]
1987 Bulls: 95.8/26.1 = [COLOR="Blue"]3.67[/COLOR]
1985 Bulls: 99.4/24.3 = [COLOR="Blue"]4.09[/COLOR]


2015 GSW:[COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] 98.3/27.4 = [COLOR="Magenta"]3.59[/COLOR]
2014 Spurs:[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 95.0/25.2 = [COLOR="Magenta"]3.77[/COLOR]
2011 Mavs:[COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] 91.3/23.8 = [COLOR="Magenta"]3.84[/COLOR]
2007 Spurs:[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 89.8/22.1 = [COLOR="Magenta"]4.06[/COLOR]

1987 Lakers: 101.6/29.6 = [COLOR="darkgreen"]3.43[/COLOR]
1986 Celtics: 102.1/29.1 = [COLOR="darkgreen"]3.47[/COLOR]

Source: basketball-reference.com


Lebron's presence significantly lowered the APG and assist percentage of Dwayne Wade, Kyrie Irving, Mo Williams, Kevin Love and Chris Bosh, while increasing their assisted rates.. Lower APG and higher assisted rates proves that these guys went from playmakers to play-finishers.. Their reduced playmaking alongside Lebron explains why Lebron's TEAMS have always had very low assist frequency (shown above).

Keep in mind that teams normally have 1 low-assisted, ball-dominator - the point guard.. But Lebron's presence as an additional, low-assisted ball-dominator (in addition to the PG) creates an inequitable distribution of playmaking that prevents the kind of equal-opportunity offenses that all the great teams use (Bird's Celtics, 90's Bulls, Mavs, Spurs, Warriors)... Since Lebron's ball-dominance prevents his teams from playing the best brand of basketball, equal or less-talented opponents are able to pull upsets by playing a better brand of basketball (2009, 2011, 2014)..

Btw, it takes more ability to achieve great stats within an equal-opportunity, winning framework, than the stat-friendly, easily-solvable, grade school-level, clearout/playground style that ball-dominators like Lebron need to get their numbers.
.

Where do lebron's teams rank within the league? You kinda left that part off.

We already know that if you add TWO offensive players to a team, that assists will be distributed differently. Keep in mind attacking the basket and then kicking out the ball is clearly going to go down when you have 3 guys who can all do something similar.

You're also not discussing the offensive play call by the coaches. Some coaches create system designed to move the ball from star player hands. See the triangle which was used for a reason with Jordan and Pippen. The spurs are clearly a high assist team as they don't have a dominate go to scorer, instead they run complex schemes to get open 3's. Same with the warriors as well.

[3ball]

He also consistently leads elite offenses every season so who cares?

So did Nash, and other similarly underachieving players.

And that's the whole point - Lebron's teams underachieve and lose to equal or less talented teams... Since Lebron significantly reduces the PPG and APG of his teammates, they aren't playing to capacity alongside him, so his TEAM never reaches it's ceiling and perennially underachieves.

Lebron's teams actually play more suboptimally than Nash and CP3's... Those guys dominate the ball too much, but all teams have a PG, and therefore a player that is low-assisted and dominates the ball... But Lebron's abnormal ball-dominance from the forward position gives his team a SECOND low-assisted, ball-dominator in addition to the PG.

This redundancy of ball-dominance and low-assisted play creates an inequitable distribution of playmaking that prevents the kind of equal-opportunity offenses that all the great teams use (Bird's Celtics, 90's Bulls, Mavs, Spurs, Warriors)... Since Lebron's ball-dominance prevents his teams from playing the best brand of basketball, equal or less-talented opponents are able to pull upsets by playing a better brand of basketball (2009, 2011, 2014)..
.

[dhsilv]

So did Nash, and other similarly underachieving players.

And that's the whole point - Lebron's teams underachieve and lose to equal or less talented teams... Since Lebron significantly reduces the PPG and APG of his teammates, they aren't playing to capacity alongside him, so his TEAM never reaches it's ceiling and perennially underachieves.

Lebron's teams actually play more suboptimally than Nash and CP3's... Those guys dominate the ball too much, but all teams have a PG, and therefore 1 player that is low-assisted and dominates the ball... But Lebron's abnormal ball-dominance from the forward position gives his team a SECOND low-assisted, ball-dominator in addition to the PG.

This redundancy of ball-dominance and low-assisted play creates an inequitable distribution of playmaking that prevents the kind of equal-opportunity offenses that all the great teams use (Bird's Celtics, 90's Bulls, Mavs, Spurs, Warriors)... Since Lebron's ball-dominance prevents his teams from playing the best brand of basketball, equal or less-talented opponents are able to pull upsets by playing a better brand of basketball (2009, 2011, 2014)..

What point guard was ball dominate on those heat teams???

[Town's Town]

This thread

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Lebron ball is essentially drive and kick, create opportunity offense

There's plenty of equal opportunity in the offense

You need 2 ball handler scorers who can shoot/drive (Lebron and Irving/Lebron and Wade)
You need 1 big man who can pick and roll/catch lobs
2 other players who can shoot off the ball well and out to the 3

A big man who can shoot off the bench or in the starting line depending on specifics

[AnaheimLakers24]

Still 2/6

[3ball]

Where do lebron's teams rank within the league? You kinda left that part off.

We already know that if you add TWO offensive players to a team, Keep in mind attacking the basket and then kicking out the ball is clearly going to go down when you have 3 guys who can all do something similar.

Virtually ALL of Lebron's teams have much lower assist frequency than MJ, Magic, and Bird's teams, and also the Spurs, Mavs and Warriors teams... I didn't look up any other teams - I figured that was more than enough.

if you add TWO offensive players to a team like Wade AND Bosh, as opposed to just Pippen, that assists will be distributed differently.

So you're saying Grant wasn't an offensive player and MJ had to carry a much bigger load??.... Agreed - I've been saying that all along.. 10-time all-star Bosh destroys 1-time all-star Grant.

if you add TWO offensive players to a team like Wade AND Bosh, as opposed to just Pippen, that assists will be distributed differently.

Not true - when you put 3 good scorers together, especially players as skilled and versatile as Wade and Bosh, the level of teamwork and assist opportunities GOES UP, not down.. Look at how MJ and Pippen's assists were HIGHER playing alongside each other - Pippen has more opportunity to assist MJ than a lesser player, and ditto for MJ assisting Pippen..

But this doesn't happen for Lebron's teams.. He lowers the APG of his teammates, which is unique... There's an easy explanation for this phenomenon - you have to remember that all teams have a PG, and therefore a player that is low-assisted and dominates the ball... But Lebron's abnormal ball-dominance from the forward position gives his team a SECOND low-assisted, ball-dominator in addition to the PG.

This redundancy of ball-dominance and low-assisted play creates an inequitable distribution of playmaking that prevents the kind of equal-opportunity offenses that all the great teams use (Bird's Celtics, 90's Bulls, Mavs, Spurs, Warriors)... Since Lebron's ball-dominance prevents his teams from playing the best brand of basketball, equal or less-talented opponents are able to pull upsets by playing a better brand of basketball (2009, 2011, 2014).

[dhsilv]

Virtually ALL of Lebron's teams have much lower assist frequency than MJ, Magic, and Bird's teams, and also the Spurs, Mavs and Warriors teams... I didn't look up any other teams - I figured that was more than enough.



So you're saying Grant wasn't an offensive player and MJ had to carry a much bigger load??.... Agreed - I've been saying that all along.. 10-time all-star Bosh destroys 1-time all-star Grant.



Not true - when you put 3 good scorers together, especially players as skilled and versatile as Wade and Bosh, the level of teamwork and assist opportunities GOES UP, not down.. Look at how MJ and Pippen's assists were HIGHER playing alongside each other - Pippen has more opportunity to assist MJ than a lesser player, and ditto for MJ assisting Pippen..

But this doesn't happen for Lebron's teams.. He lowers the APG of his teammates, which is unique... There's an easy explanation for this phenomenon - you have to remember that all teams have a PG, and therefore a player that is low-assisted and dominates the ball... But Lebron's abnormal ball-dominance from the forward position gives his team a SECOND low-assisted, ball-dominator in addition to the PG.

This redundancy of ball-dominance and low-assisted play creates an inequitable distribution of playmaking that prevents the kind of equal-opportunity offenses that all the great teams use (Bird's Celtics, 90's Bulls, Mavs, Spurs, Warriors)... Since Lebron's ball-dominance prevents his teams from playing the best brand of basketball, equal or less-talented opponents are able to pull upsets by playing a better brand of basketball (2009, 2011, 2014).

The game changes over time. These kinds of stats should be based on league ranking, not comparing different eras. Unless you can show that Lebron's team are poor passing teams based on the league as a whole, you've not really made a significant point. You'd still have no addressed that coaches run different systems and the real goal of a team is points per possession. Everything else is just how you got to your actual goal.

Grant wasn't part of the before and after. Grant left the bulls. If the bulls had added Jordan and Robinson then we could compare assist ratios.

Again you put 3 elite scorer who traditionally had the ball in their hands and take it out. This isn't the same as adding ONE player.

The OP already shows that the teams have higher assist numbers with lebron. Your issue is distribution when lebron often is functionally running AS the point. It's just a greatly flawed argument.

It's an interesting argument you're making. Basically you're saying Lebron's coaches are sucked. That they incorrectly called the games and ran offenses that were not up to par with the modern game. I actually think you have a strong point here. Oddly you're blaming Lebron and not shitty coaching which has always been imo the biggest problem with Lebron teams and likely why lebron hasn't had even more success.