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  1. #31
    The Wizard ralph_i_el's Avatar
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    Default Re: All MJ myths busted (for reference)

    Quote Originally Posted by kshutts1
    Too logical, doesn't fit his agenda... or ISH's, for that matter.
    hopefully some lurker gets something out of it

  2. #32
    Dirk top 15 all time pastis's Avatar
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    Default Re: All MJ myths busted (for reference)

    now try to bust this "myth":

    Rodman: 2 DPOY 7x reb champion, 7x all defense first team, first ballot HOF
    Pippen: top 35 all time player, 7x AS, 7 all nba selections, 8 all defense first team and 2 all defense second team selections

    goat coach in Phil.

    lets go

  3. #33
    Gambling expert StephHamann's Avatar
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    Default Re: All MJ myths busted (for reference)

    LeBRAN fans in this thread:


  4. #34
    NBA Legend and Hall of Famer 3ball's Avatar
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    Default Re: All MJ myths busted (for reference)

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.J4ever

    Don't know how old you are, but I'm in my late 40s. I've seen Magic live vs. my 76ers of the 80s many times. I've listened to the discussions of 76er players and coaches on how to defend Magic during real time and not decades later.

    Believe me, Magic was an elite offensive player due to other reason like superior passing, but he was never ever elite at post scoring like King or Mchale. Nor was he great in isos like Erving. Nor was he great in mid range like Gerving or MJ.

    He just wasn't . Period.
    First of all, Magic was elite on the post - you couldn't be more wrong on this one.. Magic was one of the best and most effective post players of all time.. He had an elite repertoire - a hook towards the middle or a spin towards the baseline - either way he's got you... Throw in goat passing and that's an elite post game... The "goat passing" isn't just lip service - Magic wasn't a 6 apg player in the playoffs like MJ, Lebron or Bird.. He was the all-time leader with 12.4 apg in the playoffs.. He could achieve that assist average from any position.. The guy would post up as a 6'9" big man, and run pnr's from the post with his frontcourt players - what PG in history has ever done that.. It was unstoppable.. Magic often ran the Lakers offense from the post.

    As for his midrange - here's where we should be able to agree.. Magic was a 2-point shooter, like everyone else back then - you should know that almost all 20 ppg scorers in the 80's had elite midrange efficiency.. This is just a stone-cold fact, borne out by the the eye test an understanding that the vast majority of points were scored in the midrange area in previous eras - a ton of guys were just really, really good at scoring in that area - think of it this way - how many guys in today's game are elite at 3-point shooters - like, a super-ton... That's how it was in previous eras with the midrange... Okay - I've tried to explain my eye test to you, now I will CLEARLY prove Magic's elite midrange efficiency using stats:

    Magic was a 2-point shooter - his 2-point field goal percentage was 54.1% on 12.1 two-point attempts per game - since Magic didn't shoot 3-pointers, the 54.1% WAS his midrange efficiency, once we essentially "remove" his at-rim percentage from this number.. So let's make the most conservative assumptions possible to see what THE WORST possible midrange percentage that Magic could've had... Let's assume that 40% of Magic's shots were at the rim (that's a Lebron-league-leading level and way too high for Magic, but we're trying to find the absolute floor of what Magic's midrange efficiency could've been)... With 40% of Magic's 2-pointers are at the rim, that means the remaining 60% are from midrange.. If we assume a 70% fg on his at-rim shots (again, this is elite and too high for Magic), his efficiency on the remaining 60% of his midrange was 43.3%:

    0.40 (70%) + 0.60 (43.3%) = 54.1%


    So 43.3% is the WORST career midrange percentage for Magic - and we know that the 40% proportion of at-rim shots and 70% efficiency on those shots were both WAY too high, which means Magic's midrange efficiency was considerably higher than 43.3%... Again, it was elite, just like most decent to great scorers back then.

    Regarding isolations, you got me there, except on the post - Magic was elite when isolated on the post.
    Last edited by 3ball; 09-06-2015 at 01:22 PM.

  5. #35
    NBA Legend and Hall of Famer 3ball's Avatar
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    Default Re: All MJ myths busted (for reference)

    Quote Originally Posted by NBAplayoffs2001

    Even without Jordan, they almost beat the Knicks in 1994 ECF 2nd Round.
    And WITH Jordan, they were a 3 peat dynasty... How is that comparable to an ordinary 2nd Round team - that's an utterly massive drop-off..

    Of course, since basketball players are just numbers-producing robots, you so probably think the Bulls could've won 55 games and made the 2nd Round in ANY season without MJ, not just 1994, right?

    Obviously not, which means the journey was an accumulative one - the acquisition of 3-peat caliber execution, strategy, and teamwork enabled the Bulls to make the 2nd Round without MJ in 1994.. MJ had to lead the Bulls to a 3-peat first, before they could make the 2nd Round without him - those are the historical facts.

    Every championship Bulls team required MJ to lead the league in scoring and be the greatest scorer the game's ever seen.. So when the Bulls made the 2nd Round in 1994, it wasn't because they had a bunch of talented scorers, it was because of the 3-peat caliber of execution, strategy, and mental ability accumulated from 3-peating with MJ.


    Quote Originally Posted by NBAplayoffs2001

    Yeah 3 ball calm with this stuff lol.
    Chill bud... There's a reason Shaq said Pippen sucked - the guy could only make the 2nd Round with a 3-peat caliber supporting cast..

    And the Bulls would've gone down 3-0 and gotten swept if Kukoc doesn't save the entire series and Pippen's ass with the miracle walk-off GW in Game 3, while Pippen refused to enter the game in an epic choke.


    Quote Originally Posted by nzahir

    Just imagine if they replaced Mj with someone decent. Team was already a contender without MJ, thats a fact
    What good is it to say "kobe would've won a 4th ring in 1994", when he couldn't average the 36/7/8 on 53% that the Bulls needed from MJ to 3-peat in the first place (those were MJ's Finals averages)?.. Kobe's typical 25/5/5 on 45% in the Finals wouldn't have come anywhere NEAR being enough to 3-peat.

    So if Kobe can't 3-peat in the first place, then it doesn't matter whether he could win a 4th straight ring with MJ's 3-peat Bulls.

    Btw, if people think kobe or mitch richmond ( ) would win in 1994, then MJ would've 9-peated FOR SURE, and he's not only the goat, but he'll always be the goat (which is probably true for our lifetimes anyway, and probably ever too tbh.. it's pretty impossible to have the career he had).





    Remember, the Bulls had the same roster back in 1989 as they had in 1994.. But they couldn't have won 55 games in 1989.. So obviously, the journey towards having 55-win capability was an accumulative one... The accumulation of once-in-a-generation 3-peat chemistry, execution, and strategy enabled the Bulls to win 55 games in 1994.

    The accumulative dynamic is also evident by evaluating the sheer talent on the team in 1994 - like all of MJ's teams, the team had very little talent in 1994, other than Pippen.. Kukoc was a Harrison Barnes-level player with worse defense.. The team's lack of talented scorers is why the Bulls needed MJ to lead the league in scoring for all of their 6 championships.. So again, the 55 wins wasn't due to having a bunch of talented scorers, it was due to the very rare, 3-peat caliber of team chemistry, execution and strategy that was accumulated by 3-peating with MJ.

    Of course, none of this means 2 bird shits when the competition increases in the playoffs - in the playoffs, you need more than just teamwork to win... You need PLAYERS that can produce, which is what MJ provided... That's why when the 1994 playoffs measured the Bulls TRUE ability without MJ, they were only an ordinary 2nd round exit team, which is a goat drop-off from not 1, not 2, but a three-peat with MJ.. Fortunately, MJ came back and validated his 2nd Round to 3-peat impact by returning the Bulls to 3-peat glory, beginning in his first full season back.. How many guys take 2 years off and return as the best with 3-peat and 3 FMVP's.... Only the goat has those kind of stories.
    .
    Last edited by 3ball; 09-30-2015 at 12:49 AM.

  6. #36
    NBA Legend LAZERUSS's Avatar
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    Default Re: All MJ myths busted (for reference)

    Every team that Lebron joined improved dramatically, and in some cases, were franchise all-time bests, and every team he left immediately plunged into losing seasons.

  7. #37
    NBA Legend and Hall of Famer 3ball's Avatar
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    Default Re: All MJ myths busted (for reference)

    Quote Originally Posted by ralph_i_el


    OP likes to post LeBron .gifs with open paint....but that's because every team that LeBron has played for for 4 years now has had tons of shooters.....

    It's not just Lebron's team that has shooters to create wide open paints - every team has it - teams average 22 three-point attempts per game.. Today's game is BASED on multiple 3-point shooters camped behind the line to provide spacing and weakside spacing on every possession of every game.. A cursory glance at 1 minute of 1 game shows this, let alone watching multiple games..


    Quote Originally Posted by ralph_i_el


    triangle can create spacing without as many shooters.
    [/B]
    ^^^ Falsehood - the triangle wasn't capable of having today's spacing - 3-pointers are further out and create more spacing - it's physics.. The Bulls only attempted 5 threes per game in 1991, compared to 22 per game for today's teams, and 27+ for Lebron's teams - it's lunacy to say the Bulls had today's spacing, or could've had today's spacing.

    Not surprisingly, the Bulls got their offense the same way all teams do when a lack of 3-point shooting turns sceen-roll/drive-and-kick into a mathematically unworthy option - they resort to post, off-ball and mid-range options.. Otoh, today's vastly superior 3-point shooting enables every team to base their offense on high efficiency drive-and-kick, which is a massive boon for wing players like Lebron.
    .
    Last edited by 3ball; 08-15-2015 at 11:07 AM.

  8. #38
    NBA Legend and Hall of Famer 3ball's Avatar
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    Default Re: All MJ myths busted (for reference)

    Quote Originally Posted by ralph_i_el


    #1 is obviously false. 2.9ing....you don't have to stay anywhere near your man. If he comes within arms reach, the 3 seconds reset, and if you step out of the paint, 3 seconds reset. You can spend 95% of a possession in the paint everytime. That's why 3 point shooting is at such a premium, because without 3 competant 3 shooters on the floor, today's teams could still cram the paint.

    If teams didn't shoot 3-pointers in today's game, offensive players would occupy the paint much more often... However, for today's defenders to remain in the paint, they must stay within 3 feet (armslength) of an offensive player and follow them around within the 16 x 19 foot paint.

    The "armslength" defense imposed on paint defenders by today's rules is a stark contrast to previous eras, where defenders could stand anywhere in the paint "with no time restriction" if their man was already in the paint or within 3 feet of either side:

    [COLOR="Blue"]2b[/COLOR]. When a defensive player is guarding an offensive player who is adjacent (posted-up) to the 3-second lane, the defensive player may be within the "inside lane" area [COLOR="Blue"]with no time limitations[/COLOR]. An offensive player shall be ruled as "postedup" when he is within 3' of the free throw lane line. A hash mark on the baseline denotes the 3' area.

    Otoh, today's "armslength" restriction and "2.9 seconds" time limit in the paint eliminates the majority of time a defender can be in the paint - and this language is unique to today's rules - there was no such language in the rules governing paint defense of previous eras..

  9. #39
    The Wizard ralph_i_el's Avatar
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    Default Re: All MJ myths busted (for reference)

    Quote Originally Posted by 3ball
    .
    Myth #6: Lebron is better at making bad teams good than MJ


    We have clear proof that MJ's 1989 Bulls were more of a 1-man team than Lebron's 2009 and 2010 Cavs:

    We've already established that Lebron's supporting cast added enough help on top of his 28/8/7/49 to win 66 games in 2009, while MJ's supporting cast only added enough help to his 33/8/8/54 to win 47 games in 1989.

    [COLOR="Navy"]If you think that all 19 of the Cavs' higher win total was due to worse competition (and not better supporting cast)[/COLOR], then consider how much better that makes MJ's playoff stats look, since they came against far better competition... Lebron's 35/9/7/51/1.6 stl playoff averages in 2009 are invalidated compared to MJ's nearly identical 35/7/7/51/2.5 stl playoff averages in 1989, due to facing vastly inferior competition..

    Of course, the other alternative is that Lebron's supporting cast was better, in addition to the aforementioned weaker comp.. This of course, must be true.. Lebron's supporting cast included an all-star and a slew of veterans, a stark contrast from MJ's young cast.. MJ's 1989 Bulls and the "Jordan Rules" that MJ faced were simply more of a 1-man team.. Therefore, the gap in RS records was due to a combination of BOTH competition level and supporting cast - the superior competition Jordan faced and 1 man show he that was is underscored by the Bulls being a 6-seed, and severe underdog in every series, compared to the Cavs being the #1 seed and favorite to make the Finals.
    The other alternative is that statlines don't tell the entire story....ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT STATS FROM NO DEFENSE 1989. LeBron's team included some decent defenders and and a one time all-star who only made it off of open shots LeBron spoon fed him.

    in 1989 the average ppg for a team was 107
    in 2009 it was 100

    Teams took more than 10% more field goal attempts in 1989

    Young Pippen >Mo Williams

  10. #40
    The Wizard ralph_i_el's Avatar
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    Default Re: All MJ myths busted (for reference)

    Quote Originally Posted by 3ball
    It's not just Lebron's team that has shooters to create wide open paints - every team has it - teams average 22 three-point attempts per game.. Today's game is BASED on multiple 3-point shooters camped behind the line to provide spacing and weakside spacing on every possession of every game.. A cursory glance at 1 minute of 1 game shows this, let alone watching multiple games..



    ^^^ Falsehood - the triangle wasn't capable of having today's spacing - 3-pointers are further out and create more spacing - it's physics.. The Bulls only attempted 5 threes per game in 1991, compared to 22 per game for today's teams, and 27+ for Lebron's teams - it's lunacy to say the Bulls had today's spacing, or could've had today's spacing.

    Not surprisingly, the Bulls got their offense the same way all teams do when a lack of 3-point shooting turns sceen-roll/drive-and-kick into a mathematically unworthy option - they resort to post, off-ball and mid-range options.. Otoh, today's vastly superior 3-point shooting enables every team to base their offense on high efficiency drive-and-kick, which is a massive boon for wing players like Lebron.
    .
    Spacing isn't just keeping defenders spread out. You played ball, you know this.
    The triangle made sure that guys were moving and passing efficiently, so that even off the ball their defender had to pay attention to them even if they weren't a three point shooter.


    Teams today shoot more 3's because they have to. Defense evolved to the point that it's necessary for players off the ball to be an immediate threat to shoot, or their man is free to roam as long as they stay out of the paint. This means that those little mid-post iso's Jordan loved could be stifled by flexible double teams. It means that weakside help (that's ACTUALLY help, not just guys boxing each other out in the paint) can come earlier. It means PnR defense is more flexible and it's easier to down the ball handler to the baseline.

    Thib's defensive revolution happened man. He figured out how to exploit the ability to run near zone defense. The 3 second rule does NOTHING. Most games it's never even called. it takes a guy .2 seconds to go from the middle of the paint to having 1 foot out of the paint, and then the 3 seconds resets.....or if ANYONE goes through the paint within his arms-reach it resets.

    I can tell you haven't watched teams without enough shooters play against this style of defense. It gets real ugly.

    This is the reason that star players take less shots on average in today's game. To be a star scorer, you also have to be a great passer, otherwise defenses will be able to key up on you too easily. Nick Young probably could have had a 25ppg season in the 80's

  11. #41
    Fire Byron triangleoffense's Avatar
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    Default Re: All MJ myths busted (for reference)

    bro relax, no one takes anyone saying Lebron or Kobe is better than Jordan seriously except their most hardcore fans, which will get drowned out after the off-season.

  12. #42
    The Wizard ralph_i_el's Avatar
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    Default Re: All MJ myths busted (for reference)

    Quote Originally Posted by 3ball
    If teams didn't shoot 3-pointers in today's game, offensive players would occupy the paint much more often... However, for today's defenders to remain in the paint, they must stay within 3 feet (armslength) of an offensive player and follow them around within the 16 x 19 foot paint.

    The "armslength" defense imposed on paint defenders by today's rules is a stark contrast to previous eras, where defenders could stand anywhere in the paint "with no time restriction" if their man was already in the paint or within 3 feet of either side:

    [COLOR="Blue"]2b[/COLOR]. When a defensive player is guarding an offensive player who is adjacent (posted-up) to the 3-second lane, the defensive player may be within the "inside lane" area [COLOR="Blue"]with no time limitations[/COLOR]. An offensive player shall be ruled as "postedup" when he is within 3' of the free throw lane line. A hash mark on the baseline denotes the 3' area.

    Otoh, today's "armslength" restriction and "2.9 seconds" time limit in the paint eliminates the majority of time a defender can be in the paint - and this language is unique to today's rules - there was no such language in the rules governing paint defense of previous eras..
    NO IT DOESN'T.
    -I can go run into the paint when I'm nowhere near anyone
    -this causes an imaginary 3 second clock to start
    -if I step one toe out of the paint, that clock resets
    -if another player comes withing a few feet of me, it resets.

    What about this do you not understand? It takes a fraction of a second to leave the paint and come back. If I wanted to, I could stand in the paint for 95% of every possession every game all season.......the problem is, they'll put my guy into a PnR, so I'll have to leave the paint to defend that, or my man will be a good shooter, so I'll have to leave the paint and stay closer to him.

    Let's say the Thunder and playing the Grizz. Marc Gasol wants to chill in the paint to stifle Westbrook all day, and his primary man is Steve Adams. Adams cannot shoot, so Gasol is comfortable staying near the basket. The Thunder would then bring Adams up to give Westbrook a pick, meaning they have a mini 2-on-1 with whoever is guarding Westbrook's, unless Gasol leaves the paint to guard the PnR. BUT, if the big setting the pick isn't a competent scorer, Gasol will still stay with one foot in the paint, dropping back to stifle any Westbrook drive, and any Adams roll.


    This wouldn't be the case if you didn't have shooters to space the PnR, because the drive could be checked by one of the players uninvolved in the PnR.


    God dammit, I'm supposed to be writing an essay for school, not to educate you.
    Last edited by ralph_i_el; 08-15-2015 at 11:45 AM.

  13. #43
    NBA Legend and Hall of Famer 3ball's Avatar
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    Default Re: All MJ myths busted (for reference)

    Quote Originally Posted by ralph_i_el

    Spacing isn't just keeping defenders spread out. You played ball, you know this.

    triangle made sure that guys were moving and passing efficiently, so that even off the ball their defender had to pay attention to them even if they weren't a three point shooter.
    No, that's EXACTLY what it is.

    Keeping defenders spread out is the objective of spacing so defenders are forced to help from further distances.

    Don't try to convince me that a team that took 5 threes per game has today's spacing - you sound like a fool.. Defenders in previous eras didn't have to help from as far away as today's teams that take 22 threes per game.. Again, it's physics and inarguable.

  14. #44
    NBA Legend and Hall of Famer 3ball's Avatar
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    Thumbs up Re: All MJ myths busted (for reference)

    .
    We have clear proof that MJ's 1989 Bulls were more of a 1-man team than Lebron's 2009 and 2010 Cavs:

    We've already established that Lebron's supporting cast added enough help on top of his 28/8/7/49 to win 66 games in 2009, while MJ's supporting cast only added enough help to his 33/8/8/54 to win 47 games in 1989.

    [COLOR="Navy"]If you think that all 19 of the Cavs' higher win total was due to worse competition (and not better supporting cast)[/COLOR], then consider how much better that makes MJ's playoff stats look, since they came against far better competition... Lebron's 35/9/7/51/1.6 stl playoff averages in 2009 are invalidated compared to MJ's nearly identical 35/7/7/51/2.5 stl playoff averages in 1989, due to facing vastly inferior competition..

    Of course, the other alternative is that Lebron's supporting cast was better, in addition to the aforementioned weaker comp.. This of course, must be true.. Lebron's supporting cast included an all-star and a slew of higher-producing veterans, a stark contrast from MJ's young cast.. MJ's 1989 Bulls and the "Jordan Rules" he faced were simply more of a 1-man team.. Therefore, the gap in RS records was due to a combination of BOTH competition level and supporting cast - the superior competition Jordan faced his 1-man show was underscored by the Bulls being a 6-seed, and severe underdog in every series, compared to the Cavs being the #1 seed and favorite to make the Finals.
    .
    Last edited by 3ball; 10-03-2015 at 01:09 PM.

  15. #45
    NBA Legend LAZERUSS's Avatar
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    Default Re: All MJ myths busted (for reference)

    Quote Originally Posted by 3ball
    2nd year Pippen's 14/6/4 is better than ALL-STAR Mo William's 17/4/6??...

    And even if you adjust the stats 10% for pace, MJ's 33/8/8/54 is still > Lebron's 28/8/7/49, yet Lebron's team won 19 more games.

    If you think that all 19 of the Cavs' higher win total was due to worse competition (and not better supporting cast), then consider how much better that makes MJ's playoff stats look, since they came against far better competition... Lebron's 35/9/7/51/1.6 stl playoff averages in 2009 are invalidated compared to MJ's nearly identical 35/7/7/51/2.5 stl playoff averages in 1989, due to facing vastly inferior competition..

    Of course, the other alternative is that Lebron's supporting cast was better, in addition to the aforementioned weaker comp.. This of course, must be true.. Lebron's supporting cast included an all-star and a slew of veterans, a stark contrast from MJ's young cast.. MJ's 1989 Bulls and the "Jordan Rules" that MJ faced were simply more of a 1-man team.. Therefore, the gap in RS records was due to a combination of BOTH competition level and supporting cast - the superior competition Jordan faced and 1 man show he that was is underscored by the Bulls being a 6-seed, and severe underdog in every series, compared to the Cavs being the #1 seed and favorite to make the Finals.
    MJ before Pippen and GRANT (who had a FAR greater IMPACT than POS Bosh did with Lebron)...a LOSER. IMMEDIATELY after getting Pippen and Grant...a winning record. AND, because of those TWO, MJ was finally able to beat the crumbling bad boys in '91. Three straight world titles in which PIPPEN and GRANT were HUGE. Then, without MJ...a 55-27, and NEAR TITLE.

    Then, MJ returned, but couldn't overcome the loss of ELITE PF Grant, who just killed his Bulls in the '95 ECF's. So, Jackson ADDED HOFer Rodman, and the rest was history.

    Meanwhile, 19 year old Lebron joined a 17-65 Cavs team with its LAUGHABLE all-star center (who was just a joke BTW), and immediately DOUBLED their win total. A couple of years later he took that same cast of clowns to their first ever Finals. And he followed that up by single-handedly carrying them to an all-time franchise record of 66-16, and then 61-21 (with ZERO help.)

    Ok, Lebron leaves for a Miami team that was first round cannon fodder before he arrived. How about his former Cavs team...all the way down to a 19-63 record. And, in his first season in Miami, they climb all the way to a 58-24 record, and a trip to the Finals. In his four years in Miami, three of which were with a broken down Wade, and a non-factor in Bosh...FOUR straight Finals, and two world titles,...and by ALL accounts, the best player in the world.

    Lebron then leaves the Heat...who immediately plunged to a 37-45 record, and with a washed up Wade, and a worthless Bosh...a losing record, and couldn't even get into the playoffs in a horribly weak conference.

    Meanwhile, Lebron immediatlely improved the injury-riddled Cavs from a 33-49 record, to a 53-29 record, and yet, ANOTHER trip to the Finals. Oh, and with his second best player, JR Smith putting up a 12-4-1 .312 series, all Lebron did was single-handedly win TWO games, and nearly TWO more, against a 67-15 Warrior team that just slaughtered the NBA.

    THOSE was the DIFFERENCES.

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