Better season: '06 Kobe RS/'09 Kobe playoffs or '09 Wade RS/'06 Wade playoffs

[dhsilv]

That is junk as per the guy who made this website. Checkout gotbuckets which also has SWaGR, a cleaner representation of RAPM.

Agree with you though. I rarely if ever use advanced stats save for RAPM. Wade's impact in 2009 just isn't as great like others believe IMO.



Winshares are raw boxscore stats adjusted. Assuming we have full data for RAPM (no box score numbers), which we do for these years, winshares will never be the more accurate measure.

I don't know what SWaGR does to RAPM to get where it goes, much like I don't know what espn is doing with RPM to get to WINS. wish there was more clarity on this stuff (though I haven't tried to find it either so on me a bit). That said again there's a HUGE amount of error in the real plus stuff. I'm fully a fan of them when you take that into account. It's not made to rank best player and it doesn't do that job, at all. It adds value only when you compare similar roles. That is where analytic are moving and where the stats are going. People want to know who the best ball handler is. Not the best point guard. The best passer in a pick and role system. Not the best point guard. They want the best shooter off screens. Not the best shooting guard.

The real plus stats aren't really going to give us a better view on best player anymore than PER did when it first came about. They give us a better idea of who excels at a role. That however requires a lot more thinking than this forum can handle.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Word

For the record, I never claimed LeBron or Kobe were better than Wade in 2009, only that they had more impact (arguably).

Although I think most agree LeBron was better than everybody that season.

[Dresta]

SWaGR is RAPM, boss.

It adjusts for minutes and games played, pushing down the strange "WTF is he doing there?" players. Kobe and LeBron both had a higher RAPM in 2009 than Wade.

As for 2008 Kobe? I felt he accomplished everything Wade did in 2009 but in the playoffs. During the regular-season Kobe had LA atop the Western Conference before Pau being traded which was around all-star break, or close to. Thats as impressive as any of Wade's "awesome numbers" IMO.

Had he not mangled his shooting finger (fractured it just before the playoffs though he was still efficient honestly), 2008 is Kobe's best all-around season without question.

So please explain why you are valuing Kobe more by him being ahead of Wade in RAPM (even though he's not: Wade's is .9 higher), but not valuing Odom over Kobe, when his RAPM is a full point better than Kobe's? Damn, considering Kobe has a better player than him on his own team, no wonder he won the title in 09! (he also had this guy on his team in 06, a team Kobe fans think was worse than a team whose second best player was Michael Beasley - and blame him for losing against the Hawks with such pitiful help ). So much inconsistency here.

Seriously, ranking people according to the dictates of this stat is showing itself to be pretty contradictory and inaccurate to say the least.

edit: about time people admit how bad Wade's team was in 09. While Kobe had RAPM legend Lamar Odom on his team in 06, Wade didn't have a single teammate with a positive RAPM that season:

Joel Anthony: -4.3 RAPM
Haslem: -1.06 RAPM
Beasley: -3.38 RAPM
Jermaine O'Neal: -0.17 RAPM
Chalmers: -3.06 RAPM
Diawara: -3.36 RAPM
D. Cook: -3.04 RAPM
Chris Quinn: -2.15 RAPM

Tell me how he should be blamed for losing a playoff series with that trash exactly?

[Wade's Rings]

SWaGR is RAPM, boss.

It adjusts for minutes and games played, pushing down the strange "WTF is he doing there?" players. Kobe and LeBron both had a higher RAPM in 2009 than Wade.

Doesn't RAPM do the same? Wade had a higher RAPM that year: https://sites.google.com/site/rapmstats/rapm clearly it wasn't by much.

As for 2008 Kobe? I felt he accomplished everything Wade did in 2009 but in the playoffs. During the regular-season Kobe had LA atop the Western Conference before Pau being traded which was around all-star break, or close to. Thats as impressive as any of Wade's "awesome numbers" IMO.

Had he not mangled his shooting finger (fractured it just before the playoffs though he was still efficient honestly), 2008 is Kobe's best all-around season without question.

After Bynum got hurt L.A was 5-5 before the Gasol trade but I'm fine with your opinion. Factoring in the Playoffs I'd argue '06 Wade over '08 Kobe. I still think teammates plays a factor in this, give Wade a slightly better team or maybe even a healthy JO and the Heat win that Hawk series.

[Wade's Rings]

So please explain why you are valuing Kobe more by him being ahead of Wade in RAPM (even though he's not: Wade's is .9 higher), but not valuing Odom over Kobe, when his RAPM is a full point better than Kobe's? Damn, considering Kobe has a better player than him on his own team, no wonder he won the title in 09! (he also had this guy on his team in 06, a team Kobe fans think was worse than a team whose second best player was Michael Beasley - and blame him for losing against the Hawks with such pitiful help ). So much inconsistency here.

Seriously, ranking people according to the dictates of this stat is showing itself to be pretty contradictory and inaccurate to say the least.

edit: about time people admit how bad Wade's team was in 09. While Kobe had RAPM legend Lamar Odom on his team in 06, Wade didn't have a single teammate with a positive RAPM that season:

Joel Anthony: -4.3 RAPM
Haslem: -1.06 RAPM
Beasley: -3.38 RAPM
Jermaine O'Neal: -0.17 RAPM
Chalmers: -3.06 RAPM
Diawara: -3.36 RAPM
D. Cook: -3.04 RAPM
Chris Quinn: -2.15 RAPM

Tell me how he should be blamed for losing a playoff series with that trash exactly?

That team so f*ckin awful.

[ArbitraryWater]

Man, looking at Bron's and Wade's 2009 teams, TERRIBLE..

Doubt Kobe makes the playoffs with them.

[Milbuck]

Man, looking at Bron's and Wade's 2009 teams, TERRIBLE..

Doubt Kobe makes the playoffs with them.

Uh, Lebron's 09 Cavs were nowhere near as shitty as Wade's 09 Heat.

And Kobe in 06 took this pile of trash to the playoffs:

Lamar Odom
Smush Parker
Kwame Brown
Chris Mihm
Devean George
Luke Walton
Brian Cook
Sasha Vujacic

That team struggles to win 15 games without Kobe.

[Wade's Rings]

Man, looking at Bron's and Wade's 2009 teams, TERRIBLE..

Doubt Kobe makes the playoffs with them.

If Wade had an even average team, his Peak would be viewed differently. He would've for sure beaten the Hawks and possibly won the MVP.

Bron's '09 squad wasn't as bad as Wade's '09 squad.

[Wade's Rings]

Uh, Lebron's 09 Cavs were nowhere near as shitty as Wade's 09 Heat.

And Kobe in 06 took this pile of trash to the playoffs:

Lamar Odom
Smush Parker
Kwame Brown
Chris Mihm
Devean George
Luke Walton
Brian Cook
Sasha Vujacic

That team struggles to win 15 games without Kobe.

I agree that team was trash but Odom was better than anybody Wade had on the '09 Heat especially come the Playoffs.

[Milbuck]

I agree that team was trash but Odom was better than anybody Wade had on the '09 Heat especially come the Playoffs.

Odom was a better 2nd guy but the rest of that Lakers team was clearly more garbage than the rest of that Heat team imo.

[Wade's Rings]

Odom was a better 2nd guy but the rest of that Lakers team was clearly more garbage than the rest of that Heat team imo.

I'd say they were even IMO.

[NBAplayoffs2001]

Without looking at stats and going off of what I remember, Wade

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

So please explain why you are valuing Kobe more by him being ahead of Wade in RAPM (even though he's not: Wade's is .9 higher)

A few things...

I don't believe Kobe was "better" than Wade in 2009. RAPM was an emphasize to my point about Wade's overrated impact.

SWaGR is RAPM, so it just adusts for minutes and games played. Kobe actually had the higher RAPM (SWaGR) that year. As did LeBron.

Please read carefully before going on another tangent.

[Showtime2001]

I'd say they were even IMO.

No they were not even.

Both teams were garbage though.

[Wade's Rings]

A few things...

I don't believe Kobe was "better" than Wade in 2009. RAPM was an emphasize to my point about Wade's overrated impact.

SWaGR is RAPM, so it just adusts for minutes and games played. Kobe actually had the higher RAPM (SWaGR) that year. As did LeBron.

Please read carefully before going on another tangent.

So SWaGR means Wade's impact was overrated?

No they were not even.

Both teams were garbage though.

ok.