Better player : Rookie M.Jordan or Current Lebron ?

[Kvnzhangyay]

87-88 through 95-96 Jordan was better than any version of Lebron, and you can make a legit argument for 97 and 98 as well.

But rookie Jordan is not better than current Lebron. More talented overall, possibly. Better, no way. You can't replace 11+ years of pro experience with a rookie with none.

The only years I believe Jordan was bettter than 09-13 lebron was 89-93 jordan

[plowking]

Idiotic thread question, and idiotic answers and responses in here all round.

[3ball]

The only years I believe Jordan was bettter than 09-13 lebron was 89-93 jordan

consider that in Jordan's rookie year, he lost to Milwaukee in the first round, and they had the league's 2nd-ranked defense and maybe the greatest perimeter defender ever in Sidney Moncrief..

Jordan still averaged 29.3 points, 5.8 rebs, 8.5 assists, 2.8 stls, 1.0 blks, 56.5% TS, 43.6% FG, with a horrible cast and the entire defense focused on stopping him.

Lebron has only played better than this against a top defense 3 times in his playoff career - infact, these 3 times represent the only times he's EVER played well against a top defense in the playoffs... those 3 times would be 2009 Orlando, 2012 Boston, and 2013 Indiana.

so not only did rookie Jordan play better than almost every Lebron playoff performance against a top defense, but Jordan has played well against top defenses in the playoffs MANY more times than just Lebron's 3.
.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

consider that in Jordan's rookie year, he lost to Milwaukee in the first round, and they had the league's 2nd-ranked defense and maybe the greatest perimeter defender ever in Sidney Moncrief..

Jordan still averaged 29.3 points, 5.8 rebs, 8.5 assists, 2.8 stls, 1.0 blks, 56.5% TS, 43.6% FG, with a horrible cast and the entire defense focused on stopping him.

Lebron has only played better than this against a top defense 3 times in his playoff career - infact, these 3 times represent the only times he's EVER played well against a top defense in the playoffs... those 3 times would be 2009 Orlando, 2012 Boston, and 2013 Indiana.

so not only did rookie Jordan play better than almost every Lebron playoff performance against a top defense, but Jordan has played well against top defenses in the playoffs MANY more times than just Lebron's 3.
.

Jordan struggled against statistically good defenses (not overhyped hackers) too.

MJ vs 97 Heat



MJ vs 93 Knicks

[3ball]

Jordan averaged sub 40% shooting the two times he faced a defense in the playoffs with a sub 100 def rating.

i said a "top-ranked defense", meaning either the #1, #2, #3, #4, or #5 ranked defense in the league.

so again, against a top-ranked defense in the playoffs, Lebron has only played well 3 times, while Jordan has played well too many times to count, although i think i will.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

The spacing with which players have today is a big difference here. Simply put, guys like LeBron get a much higher proportion of open shots. Jordan OTH, had at least a dozen more chest to chest dunks in a congested paint. The answer is rookie Jordan - quite easily.

Nah... I bet 3ball nearly creamed himself though.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

i said a "top-ranked defense", meaning either the #1, #2, #3, #4, or #5 ranked defense in the league.

so again, against a top-ranked defense in the playoffs, Lebron has only played well 3 times, while Jordan has played well too many times to count, although i think i will.

That would be a convenient definition if he played during an era where the entire league had inflated offensive stats. Wouldn't it?

[3ball]

That would be a convenient definition if he played during an era where the entire league had inflated offensive stats. Wouldn't it?

good mid-range shooters maintain their eFG% on mid-range shots better in the face of defense than 3-point shooters can...

for this reason, basketball without 3-pointers is a faster-paced game because teams don't need to take any time spacing the floor or running offense to get open 3-point looks.

in previous eras when the 3-point shot wasn't used, it was standard for players to jack up a mid-range shot at the first glimmer of daylight - without the need to run the type of offense necessary to get good 3-point looks, the pace was hectic back and forth - that's just how two-point basketball PLAYS..

it's a superior brand of basketball where the game and the movements on the court looked more random and organic like ants on an anthill, as opposed to today's rigid spacing and predictable movements.

and keep in mind that without the spacing and without defenders guarding the 3-point line, there was less daylight in general because defenders were in closer proximity - but this went hand-in-hand with the fact that players didn't NEED as much daylight because they were taking two-point shots and mid-range..

btw, the all two-pointers shot allocation of previous eras put downward pressure on shooting efficiency that today's player doesn't have to worry about: while previous eras took all two-pointers and mid-range, these shots are considered bad, low efficiency shots in today's game and are avoided because the 3-point shooting and spacing gets better shots (3-pointers, FT's, at-rim)
.

[J Shuttlesworth]

LeBron stats against tough defenses:
2006
vs. Pistsons (#5 defense)
26.6/8.5/6 44.2 % FG, 51.6% TS

2007
vs. Spurs (#2 defense)
22/7/7 35.6% FG, 42.8% TS

2008
vs. Celtics (#1 defense)
26.7/6.4/7.6 35.5% FG, 48% TS

2009
vs. Magic (#1 defense)
38.5/8.3/8 48% FG, 59.1% TS

2010
vs. Celtics (#5 defense)
26.8/9.3/7.2 44.9% FG, 55.6% TS

2011
ECSF vs. Celtics (#1 defense)
28/8.2/3.6 47% FG, 55.3% TS

WCF vs. Bulls (#1 defense)
25.8/7.8/6.6 44.7% FG 56.9% TS

2012
ECF vs Celtics (#1 defense in the league)
33.6/11/3.9 52.7% 58.7% TS

1st round vs. Knicks (#5 defense)
27.8/5.2/5.6 47%, 60.4% TS

2013
vs. Pacers (#1 defense)
29/7.3/5.3 51% FG, 60.9% TS

vs. Spurs (#3 defense)
25.3/10/9/7 on 44.7% FG, 52.9% TS

2014
vs. Pacers (#1 defense)
22.8/6.3/5.5 55.9% FG, 63.7% TS

vs. Spurs (#3 defense)
28.2/7.8/4 57% FG, 67.9% TS

vs. Bobcats (#5 defense)
30/8/6 55.7% FG, 67.1% TS

[J Shuttlesworth]

Which 3 of those are the good ones, 3 ball?

[3ball]

Which 3 of those are the good ones, 3 ball?

Here are Lebron's good performances against top defenses:


2009
vs. Magic (#1 defense)
38.5/8.3/8 48% FG, 59.1% TS


2011
ECSF vs. Celtics (#1 defense)
28/8.2/3.6 47% FG, 55.3% TS

WCF vs. Bulls (#1 defense)
25.8/7.8/6.6 44.7% FG 56.9% TS


2012
ECF vs Celtics (#1 defense in the league)
33.6/11/3.9 52.7% 58.7% TS

1st round vs. Knicks (#5 defense)
27.8/5.2/5.6 47%, 60.4% TS


2013
vs. Pacers (#1 defense)
29/7.3/5.3 51% FG, 60.9% TS


so seven good performances... ONLY two great ones (2009 Magic, 2012 Boston).

[J Shuttlesworth]

Here are Lebron's good performances against top defenses:


2009
vs. Magic (#1 defense)
38.5/8.3/8 48% FG, 59.1% TS


2011
ECSF vs. Celtics (#1 defense)
28/8.2/3.6 47% FG, 55.3% TS

WCF vs. Bulls (#1 defense)
25.8/7.8/6.6 44.7% FG 56.9% TS


2012
ECF vs Celtics (#1 defense in the league)
33.6/11/3.9 52.7% 58.7% TS

1st round vs. Knicks (#5 defense)
27.8/5.2/5.6 47%, 60.4% TS


2013
vs. Pacers (#1 defense)
29/7.3/5.3 51% FG, 60.9% TS


so seven good performances... ONLY two great ones (2009 Magic, 2012 Boston).

wtf you on man? There were 12 good performances there. 07/08 are the only poor ones

[3ball]

wtf you on man? There were 12 good performances there. 07/08 are the only poor ones

ok that's cool... ... there's a lot of wiggle room in there when we are talking about the "good" performances.

but lebron only has two truly GREAT performances against top 5 defenses in the playoffs: 2009 Orlando and 2012 Boston.

jordan has a lot more than that, and in the Finals at that.

[J Shuttlesworth]

ok that's cool... ... there's a lot of wiggle room in there when we are talking about the "good" performances.

but lebron only has two truly GREAT performances against top 5 defenses in the playoffs: 2009 Orlando and 2012 Boston.

jordan has a lot more than that, and in the Finals at that.

Sorry but I'd consider these to be great:
26.8/9.3/7.2 44.9% FG, 55.6% TS
38.5/8.3/8 48% FG, 59.1% TS
26.6/8.5/6 44.2 % FG, 51.6% TS (includes 48 pt game vs pistons)
28/8.2/3.6 47% FG, 55.3% TS
33.6/11/3.9 52.7% 58.7% TS
29/7.3/5.3 51% FG, 60.9% TS
25.3/10/7 on 44.7% FG, 52.9% TS
28.2/7.8/4 57% FG, 67.9% TS
30/8/6 55.7% FG, 67.1% TS

Bolded are the finals

Jordan has two series that are untouchable, but I'd say the rest of them LeBron has series on par with them, including the finals

[3ball]

comparing with Jordan in the Finals shouldn't really be done.