Outside of shooting, is there anything Kyrie is better than John Wall at?

[ClipperRevival]

It's much easier to score when you rarely look to pass....

Plus...no D

Cavs didn't even really see a drop off in +/- when Delly came on because he was so much better than Kyrie on D

LOL. It's NEVER easy to score in the playoffs against a set defender with a set defense backing up that defender. That's the hardest thing to do in bball.

But anyways, here are his +/- in the last 3 games of the finals:

Game 5: +20
Game 6: +25
Game 7: +10

LeBron in the same 3 games:

Game 5: +13
Game 6: +26
Game 7: +4

The fact is, Irving was the momentum stopper in the last 3 games of the finals. Time and time again, when it looked like GSW was making a run, he would put a stop to it. That is CLUTCH. That is showing up when it matters. Being clutch isn't just about hitting the game winner (which he actually did LOL). It's about sensing key moments in games and either stopping the momentum of the other team or burying another team when they are ripe for the killing.

[ClipperRevival]

And Delly only played 6 minutes in the last 3 games of the finals (didn't even play game 7). And he was a -5 in game 5 and a -7 in game 6. So you're statement is pretty much WRONG.

[aj1987]

Let's just put it this way. If John Wall played for Warriors instead of Curry, we would've won the Championship.

Agreed.

[ralph_i_el]

LOL. It's NEVER easy to score in the playoffs against a set defender with a set defense backing up that defender. That's the hardest thing to do in bball.

But anyways, here are his +/- in the last 3 games of the finals:

Game 5: +20
Game 6: +25
Game 7: +10

LeBron in the same 3 games:

Game 5: +13
Game 6: +26
Game 7: +4

The fact is, Irving was the momentum stopper in the last 3 games of the finals. Time and time again, when it looked like GSW was making a run, he would put a stop to it. That is CLUTCH. That is showing up when it matters. Being clutch isn't just about hitting the game winner (which he actually did LOL). It's about sensing key moments in games and either stopping the momentum of the other team or burying another team when they are ripe for the killing.

I understand it was in the finals, but it still was only 3 games. Plus he was going up against an injured Curry, who isn't a good defender in the first place.

In the regular season Delly had a significantly better +/-, and a MUCH better on/off +/- (and since he and Kyrie play the same position, comparing that stat for them makes sense because they often subbed for each other).

That's over a 70+ game sample size....not 3.

Stats say that last regular season the Cavs were 16 points per 100 possessions better when LeBron was on the court vs. when he was off the court

the Cavs were .2 points per 100 possessions WORSE with Kyrie on the court compared to when he sat

the Cavs were 8.2 points per 100 possessions BETTER when Delly was on the court compared to when he sat.

the Wizards were 4.8 points per 100 possessions better when Wall was on the court compared to when he sat.....and they were only 1 point per 100 possessions better than their opponents when he played (which means Wall was the only thing stopping the Wiz from being trash)


Kyrie is an excellent 1-on-1 scorer who got hot on a big stage. He does nothing else at an all-star level.

[ClipperRevival]

I understand it was in the finals, but it still was only 3 games. Plus he was going up against an injured Curry, who isn't a good defender in the first place.

In the regular season Delly had a significantly better +/-, and a MUCH better on/off +/- (and since he and Kyrie play the same position, comparing that stat for them makes sense because they often subbed for each other).

That's over a 70+ game sample size....not 3.

Delly regular season:

BPM -1.6, OBPM -0.2, DBPM -1.4

Irving regular season:

BPM +1.6, OBPM +3.0, DBPM -1.4

And those "only 3 games" are 3 of the most significant games in NBA history that elevated the legacy of some and downgraded the legacy of others. They mattered most.

[iamgine]

Shooting is pretty crucial. I mean Curry only has average, MAYBE above average playmaking and some say he's pretty bad on defense. But he's at least top 3 player in the league.

[ralph_i_el]

Delly regular season:

BPM -1.6, OBPM -0.2, DBPM -1.4

Irving regular season:

BPM +1.6, OBPM +3.0, DBPM -1.4

And those "only 3 games" are 3 of the most significant games in NBA history that elevated the legacy of some and downgraded the legacy of others. They mattered most.

Box score plus minus is an aggregate of counting stats (points, rebounds, steals, assists, blocks etc etc....). It doesn't reflect the actual quality of defense, or anything that doesn't show up in basic statsheets. Therefore it extremely underrates defenders unless they are getting a ton of blocks and/or steals. We all know that many of the best defenders DON'T get a ton of steals or blocks, and certain players DO get a bunch of steals and blocks without actually being a good defender.

Real plus minus actually reflects what went on in the game.

Delly is one of the best guard defenders in the league, and is a (slight)positive on offense, not because of scoring or playmaking, but because he doesn't try to do to much and stays in his lane.


Outside of scoring, what is Kyrie good at? He's not able to balance scoring and running an offense like a CP3 or Curry type player. Honestly, I don't think Kyrie is any better than Dame Lillard or Isaiah Thomas. He's just in a better situation (at the moment).

Being a shooter/scorer next to LeBron is the easiest starting job in basketball.

[Father Prime]

Wall does everything for stats. He's a mini mini Lebron...they don't have the clutch gene or a jump shot but they are fast and can jump really high and get occasional chase down or weak side blocks.

Kyrie is better

[MP.Trey]

I see the "Irving doesn't play defense" myth is still going strong by people who don't watch Cavs games.

[Father Prime]

I see the "Irving doesn't play defense" myth is still going strong by people who don't watch Cavs games.

Actually, he doesn't a lot of the time, but when he's locked in and focused, he's a pretty darn good man-to-man defender. Better than Steph, Dame, Wall, or Westbrook.

[ralph_i_el]

Actually, he doesn't a lot of the time, but when he's locked in and focused, he's a pretty darn good man-to-man defender. Better than Steph, Dame, Wall, or Westbrook.

no

just no

[Father Prime]

no

just no

Kyrie has quicker feet and is stronger than Wall. Wall has more length and recovery speed which is more suitable for team defense. Wall a better overall defender? Yeah. Man defender? I still pick a motivated Kyrie which isn't often, but the talent is there.

[aj1987]

Wall does everything for stats. He's a mini mini Lebron...they don't have the clutch gene or a jump shot but they are fast and can jump really high and get occasional chase down or weak side blocks.

Kyrie is better

My post from another thread:

#2 Kyrie being more clutch than LeBron:

The Cavs were struggling and LeBron scored 11 points in the 4th Q. 8 straight points at one point and scored 6 straight after GSW were up 4 and with all the momentum. Dude absolutely killed their momentum and gave the Cavs a 2pt lead. He also has the game saving block on Iggy.

Irving in the 4th Q's of the Finals:



LeBron in the 4th Q's of the Finals:



LeBron in the 4th Q's of the Finals (last 3 games):



LeBron in the 4th Q's of the Finals (last 2 games):



Kyrie in the 4th Q's of the Finals (last 2 games):



Dude scored 3/2/1 on 36% TS. He gets called the clutch god or whatever for making that one 3 when the game was tied. How the heck can you call LeBron a choker and Kyrie clutch AF, when it's not even close to being true.

Kyrie has quicker feet and is stronger than Wall. Wall has more length and recovery speed which is more suitable for team defense. Wall a better overall defender? Yeah. Man defender? I still pick a motivated Kyrie which isn't often, but the talent is there.

Kyrie is not even close to being as good as Wall defensively.

[ClipperRevival]

Box score plus minus is an aggregate of counting stats (points, rebounds, steals, assists, blocks etc etc....). It doesn't reflect the actual quality of defense, or anything that doesn't show up in basic statsheets. Therefore it extremely underrates defenders unless they are getting a ton of blocks and/or steals. We all know that many of the best defenders DON'T get a ton of steals or blocks, and certain players DO get a bunch of steals and blocks without actually being a good defender.

Real plus minus actually reflects what went on in the game.

Delly is one of the best guard defenders in the league, and is a (slight)positive on offense, not because of scoring or playmaking, but because he doesn't try to do to much and stays in his lane.


Outside of scoring, what is Kyrie good at? He's not able to balance scoring and running an offense like a CP3 or Curry type player. Honestly, I don't think Kyrie is any better than Dame Lillard or Isaiah Thomas. He's just in a better situation (at the moment).

Being a shooter/scorer next to LeBron is the easiest starting job in basketball.

BPM, OBPM, DBPM seems pretty legit to me.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...6_leaders.html

I do kind of get what you're saying though in that Kyrie is somewhat one dimensional but that one dimension he possesses is the most important aspect in the game. But no doubt he doesn't give you that all around game of a CP3.

[ClipperRevival]

My post from another thread:

#2 Kyrie being more clutch than LeBron:

The Cavs were struggling and LeBron scored 11 points in the 4th Q. 8 straight points at one point and scored 6 straight after GSW were up 4 and with all the momentum. Dude absolutely killed their momentum and gave the Cavs a 2pt lead. He also has the game saving block on Iggy.

Irving in the 4th Q's of the Finals:



LeBron in the 4th Q's of the Finals:



LeBron in the 4th Q's of the Finals (last 3 games):



LeBron in the 4th Q's of the Finals (last 2 games):



Kyrie in the 4th Q's of the Finals (last 2 games):



Dude scored 3/2/1 on 36% TS. He gets called the clutch god or whatever for making that one 3 when the game was tied. How the heck can you call LeBron a choker and Kyrie clutch AF, when it's not even close to being true.




Kyrie is not even close to being as good as Wall defensively.

So absolutely BALLING out in quarters 1-3 in games 5-7 of the NBA finals doesn't count? If you saw the finals, you saw the number of times he stopped the momentum of the GSW time and time again and just kept hitting buckets.

He put up these numbers in the last 3 games:

30.0 PPG, .523%, .529% 3PT

So that means he pretty much averaged 27 ppg in the first 3 quarters to keep his team in those games. That doesn't count?