Which players have been able to lead their team to a ship w/o a top 50 GOAT teammate?

[DMAVS41]

It's not that there are no upsets.. you're not understanding what I'm saying. It all depends on whether the superstar player were talking about had to carry his teammates or not.. That's what it's about. In that Laker series in 03, Duncan did not need to 'carry' his team because they were already OUTPLAYING the supporting cast surrounding the Laker's superstar. You have to look at how they actually played and not just read off their names and career averages.

And you can't ignore the impact of a that superstar playing well has on the other players.

Do you think the Spurs win game 1 if Duncan ends up with only 2 assists and takes 16 more shots? I doubt it.

Its all connected. You can't just absolve the superstar of his teammates playing poorly if that superstar isn't playing well or isn't playing team ball to begin with.

Conversely, you can't give all the blame or credit to the superstar either.

Which is what I have said since starting to post here.

Every single team that has won a title has had players step up in key situations. Some have it more than others.

There are, however, absolutely different degrees of help based on the name on the back of a jersey. Scottie Pippen was just simply a better basketball player than Tony Parker (even when tony parker was playing great) back in 03.

The players have a reputation and career averages for a reason. Yes, they can play above that at times, but it doesn't change what they bring to the table.

Ignoring what Duncan provided that team in 03 is silly. He anchored both ends of the floor. He created scoring opportunities left and right. He covered up defensive mistakes. Duncan made that team go. The Spurs supporting cast flourishing is directly related to Duncan's play. That is what you are missing.

Take game 1 in that series. Everything is fragile. Maybe if the Lakers win game 1 they go on to win the series. Never know.

Duncan shot 46%. The rest of his team shot 34%. Duncan was the defensive anchor most responsible for holding down the Lakers as well. Duncan has 7 assists and played unselfishly and allowed his teammates to play. Even though nobody else really did anything of note in the game for the Spurs. They were at least given chances.

Kobe shot 42% and took 38 shots. The rest of his team shot 38%. Kobe only had 2 assists even though he dominated the ball the entire game. Shaq had 24 points and 21 boards.

Maybe, just maybe that the rest of the Lakers playing poorly was directly related to Kobe jacking up 38 shots and not sharing the ball. If he was getting so much attention, why not pass? If it was just a 2 man show...find the open man. The truth is that in that game Kobe got more help from his team than Duncan did. Duncan just allowed his team to actually play. That was the difference.

[Anaximandro1]

Duncan's 2003 Playoff run
[CODE]Offensive Side

PTS ORB AST
Duncan 593 96 127
Spurs 2275 291 497
Duncan's Share 26.1% 33.0% 25.5%

-Duncan averaged 24.7 pts (52.9%),4.0 orb,5.3 as
-Spurs averaged 94.8 pts (44.1%),12.1 orb,20.7 as
[/CODE]
[CODE]Defensive Side

DRB BLK
Duncan 273 79
Spurs 802 165
Duncan's Share 34.0% 47.9%

-Duncan averaged 11.4 drb,3.3 blk
-Spurs averaged 33.4 drb,6.9 blk
-Spurs allowed 89.3 pts per game (40.4%)[/CODE]


2003

Western Conference Semifinals / Spurs 4-2 over Lakers

Duncan averaged 28 pts (FG 52.9%)

Spurs averaged 99.5 pts (FG 47.1%)


Western Conference Finals / Spurs 4-2 over Mavs

Duncan averaged 28 pts (FG 56.9%)

Spurs averaged 101.3 pts (FG 45.5%)


Finals / Spurs 4-2 over Nets

Duncan averaged 24.2 pts (FG 49.5%)

Spurs averaged 87.8 pts (FG 43.1%)

[rmt]

Okay, I'll bite.

Lets look at those 4 victories...

Game 1: 87-82

-Spurs hold Lakers to 87.9 Offensive Rating.
-The non superstars on the Lakers shoot 8 for 28 = 28.5%.
- Spurs out FT Lakers 35 to 12
- Highest GS = Shaq

It'd be nice for Spurs' #2 and #3 options (TP, SJax) to score more than 9 points total so that TD (28 pts) wouldn't have to score over 32% of the points.

Game 2 114-95

--Spurs hold Lakers to 99.3 Offensive Rating.
- Duncan 12 pts/ 13 rebounds
- The non Duncans shoot 37 for 65 = 57%
- Highest GS = Bruce Bowen 27 pts 10 for 12... 7 for 8 from 3

Like it's typical of Bowen (avg 6.9pts) to score 27 - most of them coming against Kobe

Game 3 Loss

Highest GS= Shaq

It'd be nice if anyone other than TD (28/11) and Rose would even score in double-digits.

Game 4 Loss

Highest GS= Kobe

LA out-freethrows SA 45 to 26

Game 5 96-94

-Spurs hold Lakers to 107.4 Offensive Rating.
- Duncan 27 pts 14 rebs
- Non Duncans shoot 48% 22 for 57
- Highest GS= Kobe Bryant 36 pts 6 assists 7 rebs

Oh, so close. Horry's 3 rims out.

Game 6 110-82

-Spurs hold Lakers to a 95.9 Offensive Rating
-Non superstar Lakers = 14 for 40 = 35%
-Duncan 37 pts 16 rebs
- Non Duncans shoot 52% 28 for 54 including 6 for 9 from 3
-Highest GS = Tim Duncan

That's right. No one (including Shaq) could stop TD - never saw him as determined as he was that game. As Magic Johnson said, "That big man down low, Tim Duncan, has just been unbelievable. Never seen a big man with such great foot work. I think maybe Kevin McHale is the closest guy, but this guy is just unbelievable tonight."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XANfQQDV61k

Forgive me if I don't consider those one man victories where Tim Duncan overwhelmed the superstar talent of the Lakers considering he was only the best player statistically 1 of the 6 games.

Okay, he only averaged 28/12/5 while anchoring the defense in a 6-game series where LA scored once over 100 pts.

See anyone can manipulate stats to suit their own purposes/agenda. Here's a fact: only TD has won 4 rings without an-all nba team mate (that year). All these threads about all-star, all-nba team mates need to be qualified with THAT YEAR or HOF, top 50 - were they playing at that level?

[ShaqAttack3234]

Outside of Kobe and Shaq, that 2003 Lakers supporting cast was trash. George, Horry, Fisher, Madsen, Shaw, and Samaki Walker? Definitely one of LA's weaker "all-round" teams that decade. I had mixed feelings about that series vs SA; knew Kobe and Shaq were gonna do their thing but the injuries and help they were left with wasn't gonna cut it.

in fairness, that was pretty much the same cast as the year before, and Fisher played much better in 2003. But Fox was injured and Horry missed every 3 that he took.

Parker also averaged 18.3 ppg in the Spurs 4 wins that series. Tim was easily the best player in the series, but to act like he didn't have help is stupid.

Game 1
Duncan had 28/8/7/3 on 10/22 shooting and 8/14 from the line, and while Parker struggled and Jackson was held scoreless, Robinson stepped up with 14 points and 11 boards, and Ginobili came off the bench for 15/6/4. You can't ignore Bowen's contribution either in making Kobe take 38 shots to score 37 points as well as turn the ball over 5 times compared to 2 assists and the Spurs bench outscored the Lakers bench 28-4.

Game 2
Duncan had 12/13/7 on 5/10 shooting and 2/2 from the line, but he certainly had help this game.

Bowen had 27 points on 10/12 shooting and 7/8 3 point shooting to actually match Kobe's scoring and again, made Kobe work for his 27 points as he shot 9/24 and had 5 turnovers compared to 1 assist.

the Spurs had 6 players score double figures. Jackson scored 10 points, while Ginobili came off the bench and had 16. Parker had 16 points and Speedy Claxton came off the bench for 15.

That's a ton of production to get from your perimeter players and the Spurs bench easily outscored the Lakers bench 45-28.

Game 5
Duncan had 27/14/5, but that was the game that Kobe almost led that big comeback which ended when horry's potential game-winning 3 rimmed out. Shaq didn't have a great game, he had 20/12/3, but wasn't as good as the stats suggest.

The Lakers bench actually outscored the Spurs 22-18, but again, Duncan didn't do it alone. Parker had 21 points, Bowen had 12, Jackson had 12 and both Ginobili and Claxton came off the bench with 7 points each. Robinson and Rose did their jobs vs Shaq.

Game 6
Obviously Tim dominated this game with 37/16/4, but again, he didn't do it alone. Parker had 27 points, Bowen once again limited Kobe, particularly in the second half.

The Spurs bench also outscored the Lakers bench 27-16. And really, no Laker except Shaq(31/10/3/3) played well.

I'm not saying that Duncan wasn't great himself, or that he had an incredible team, but they clearly got the job done.

The Lakers were by far the most dangerous team they faced(since Dirk didn't play the last 3 games of the Dallas series), and Tim got 20 points out of a teammate in every game, Bowen's contributions were huge considering they played Kobe, and the Spurs big men did a solid job vs Shaq preventing him from really dominating and their depth proved valuable as their bench killed LA's.

[rmt]

So does everybody have to play 40+ minutes? I just don't see a difference in the players you mentioned other than their role grew as players left. I mean, I could tell from the jump that ginobli was a gamer. And he was 25. I'm sure on another team, he could avg 17 ppg if he played more minutes. Parker was solid even then. And id take 37 year old david robinson over rasho nesterovic, and any other center the spurs won wiith when robinson retired.

And I said they went 9 deep? I'm sorry 8 deep. That's. Damn good for the playoffs. I've seen teams win with barely 6 players.

I also think you need to stay away from stats. They only tell so much. The spurs won on good solid defense, no great defense. And unfortunately, defense isn't sexy enough to warrant respect. But it gets results.

No, everybody does not have to play 40+ minutes (only TD was anywhere close to 40 - next was TP at 33). Your point was that 03 team had a veteran core, and I countered that the #2, #3 and #4 options were very inexperienced. Only DRob of the 8 deep had more than 6 years experience. So, no, the 03 Spurs were not a veteran core. As far as stats goes (in this case), minutes played is minutes played.

[catch24]

in fairness, that was pretty much the same cast as the year before, and Fisher played much better in 2003. But Fox was injured and Horry missed every 3 that he took.

Parker also averaged 18.3 ppg in the Spurs 4 wins that series. Tim was easily the best player in the series, but to act like he didn't have help is stupid.

Game 1
Duncan had 28/8/7/3 on 10/22 shooting and 8/14 from the line, and while Parker struggled and Jackson was held scoreless, Robinson stepped up with 14 points and 11 boards, and Ginobili came off the bench for 15/6/4. You can't ignore Bowen's contribution either in making Kobe take 38 shots to score 37 points as well as turn the ball over 5 times compared to 2 assists and the Spurs bench outscored the Lakers bench 28-4.

Game 2
Duncan had 12/13/7 on 5/10 shooting and 2/2 from the line, but he certainly had help this game.

Bowen had 27 points on 10/12 shooting and 7/8 3 point shooting to actually match Kobe's scoring and again, made Kobe work for his 27 points as he shot 9/24 and had 5 turnovers compared to 1 assist.

the Spurs had 6 players score double figures. Jackson scored 10 points, while Ginobili came off the bench and had 16. Parker had 16 points and Speedy Claxton came off the bench for 15.

That's a ton of production to get from your perimeter players and the Spurs bench easily outscored the Lakers bench 45-28.

Game 5
Duncan had 27/14/5, but that was the game that Kobe almost led that big comeback which ended when horry's potential game-winning 3 rimmed out. Shaq didn't have a great game, he had 20/12/3, but wasn't as good as the stats suggest.

The Lakers bench actually outscored the Spurs 22-18, but again, Duncan didn't do it alone. Parker had 21 points, Bowen had 12, Jackson had 12 and both Ginobili and Claxton came off the bench with 7 points each. Robinson and Rose did their jobs vs Shaq.

Game 6
Obviously Tim dominated this game with 37/16/4, but again, he didn't do it alone. Parker had 27 points, Bowen once again limited Kobe, particularly in the second half.

The Spurs bench also outscored the Lakers bench 27-16. And really, no Laker except Shaq(31/10/3/3) played well.

I'm not saying that Duncan wasn't great himself, or that he had an incredible team, but they clearly got the job done.

The Lakers were by far the most dangerous team they faced(since Dirk didn't play the last 3 games of the Dallas series), and Tim got 20 points out of a teammate in every game, Bowen's contributions were huge considering they played Kobe, and the Spurs big men did a solid job vs Shaq preventing him from really dominating and their depth proved valuable as their bench killed LA's.

Nothing more needs to be said