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  1. #76
    Kobe Apostle Deuce Bigalow's Avatar
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    Default Re: Game 7 Performances by All-Time Greats

    Quote Originally Posted by jlauber
    Excuse-after-excuse. But NEVER any for Wilt, though, right?

    Chamberlain takes crappy rosters and/or good rosters that play crappy in the post-season, to 12 Conference Finals, and to six Finals, and plays brilliantly in nearly all of them, and his team's lose four game seven's by a total of nine points.

    As proven above, Kobe plays like sh!t in the vast majority of his last playoff games, and most all of which are blowout losses.

    And even in his game seven wins he shot like a blindman in a wind-tunnel. In Game seven of the 2000 WCF's, he shot 9-19. In game seven of the 2002 WCF's, he shot 10-26. And we all know he shot 6-24 in game seven of the 2010 Finals.

    As for Wilt. No game seven's of 40+, but a game five, in a best-of-five series, of 56 points and 35 rebounds. And a game three, in a best-of-three series, of 53 points and 22 rebounds. He also had a "must-win" game six in the 60 ECF's of 50 points and 35 rebounds(against Russell, no less); a game seven in the '65 ECF's of 30 points, 32 rebounds, and on 12-15 shooting; a "must-win" game five in the '66 ECF's (against Russell) of 46 points and 34 rebounds. And a "must-win" game six of the '70 Finals (and on one leg), of 45 points, on 20-27 shooting, with 27 rebounds.
    9-19 FG is shit? WTF? You do know that Kobe is a shooting guard that takes mostly perimeter shots?

    Kobe scored or assisted on the Lakers last 8 points, getting the win while putting up 25-11-7-4 blk, leading his team in all 4 of those categories

    In 2002 WCF Game 7 Kobe may have shot 10-26 but he still had 30-10-7 with 0 turnovers

    In 2010 Finals Game 7 Kobe still had the most points in the game and 15 rebounds, while scoring 10 points in the 4th quarter (most in the game)

    And I did not list excuses. How can you blame a loss on a bench player (19 yr old Kobe in '98)?

    Why are you so clueless about basketball?

    Anyways I stand by on what I believe, that if Wilt doesn't miss 9+ FTs in some of those 1-2 pt losses, he would have won more.
    Last edited by Deuce Bigalow; 08-08-2012 at 02:32 PM.

  2. #77
    I eat cheese oolalaa's Avatar
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    Default Re: Game 7 Performances by All-Time Greats

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce Bigalow
    9-19 FG is shit? WTF? You do know that Kobe is a shooting guard that takes mostly perimeter shots?

    Kobe scored or assisted on the Lakers last 8 points, getting the win while putting up 25-11-7-4 blk, leading his team in all 4 of those categories

    In 2002 WCF Game 7 Kobe may have shot 10-26 but he still had 30-10-7 with 0 turnovers

    In 2010 Finals Game 7 Kobe still had the most points in the game and 15 rebounds, while scoring 10 points in the 4th quarter (most in the game)

    And I did not list excuses. How can you blame a loss on a bench player (19 yr old Kobe in '98)?

    Why are you so clueless about basketball?

    Anyways I stand by on what I believe, that if Wilt doesn't miss 9+ FTs in some of those 1-2 pt losses, he would have won more.
    Do you rank Kobe higher than Wilt??

  3. #78
    Kobe Apostle Deuce Bigalow's Avatar
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    Default Re: Game 7 Performances by All-Time Greats

    Quote Originally Posted by oolalaa
    Do you rank Kobe higher than Wilt??
    Yes. Kobe has had the better career imo

  4. #79
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    Default Re: Game 7 Performances by All-Time Greats

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce Bigalow
    9-19 FG is shit? WTF? You do know that Kobe is a shooting guard that takes mostly perimeter shots?

    Kobe scored or assisted on the Lakers last 8 points, getting the win while putting up 25-11-7-4 blk, leading his team in all 4 of those categories

    In 2002 WCF Game 7 Kobe may have shot 10-26 but he still had 30-10-7 with 0 turnovers

    In 2010 Finals Game 7 Kobe still had the most points in the game and 15 rebounds, while scoring 10 points in the 4th quarter (most in the game)

    And I did not list excuses. How can you blame a loss on a bench player (19 yr old Kobe in '98)?

    Why are you so clueless about basketball?

    Anyways I stand by on what I believe, that if Wilt doesn't miss 9+ FTs in some of those 1-2 pt losses, he would have won more.
    Because to him it's ALL about statistics down to absolute pin-point percentages and without a morsel of context. He's one of the most ridiculous posters or fans I've ever seen, and seems to hold an extreme agenda against Bird, Kareem and Olajuwon -- and basically anybody being compared to Wilt Chamberlain.

  5. #80
    I eat cheese oolalaa's Avatar
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    Default Re: Game 7 Performances by All-Time Greats

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce Bigalow
    Yes. Kobe has had the better career imo
    Not sure how you worked that one out. Kobe has a lot less MVPs, the same number of Finals MVPs and around the same number of All-NBA teams. Their team success was pretty similar, but Wilt did anchor what some people call the greatest team of all time.

    In terms of sheer IMPACT and DOMINATION on a game, Kobe pales in comparison. Wilt was arguably the best rebounder in history, his defensive value was LIGHT YEARS ahead of Kobe's, his facilitating/passing in his prime ('64 - '68) was as good, if not better, than anything Kobe has offered up. In terms of scoring, it's a little confusing. Wilt definitely COULD have been a better scorer than Kobe but his obsession with playing just like Russell (From '67 onwards) cost him several high scoring seasons. Still, Wilt's all round impact trumps Kobe's extra points.

    Also, I've always thought that Kobe is the most OVERRATED 'clutch' performer in NBA history, so if Kobe's 'clutchness' and Wilt's 'unclutchness' is the reason for your rankings then I think you sorely mistaken.

    Yes, Wilt's '68-'70 stretch did bring him back to the pack, in my opinion. That was his chance to seal his status as the greatest player of all time, to become even better than Russell. He had SEVERAL chances to win at least 2 rings, but came up short in BIG situations.

    But Kobe has STINK BOMBED several times, too (Most notably the '04 & '08 Finals). His 4th quarter shooting in the '09 and '10 Finals was really poor, as well.
    Last edited by oolalaa; 08-08-2012 at 03:30 PM.

  6. #81
    Kobe Apostle Deuce Bigalow's Avatar
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    Default Re: Game 7 Performances by All-Time Greats

    Quote Originally Posted by oolalaa
    Not sure how you worked that one out. Kobe has a lot less MVPs, the same number of Finals MVPs and around the same number of All-NBA teams.

    In terms of sheer IMPACT and DOMINATION on a game, Kobe pales in comparison. Wilt was arguably the best rebounder in history, his defensive value was LIGHT YEARS ahead of Kobe's, his facilitating/passing in his prime ('64 - '68) was as good, if not better, than anything Kobe has offered up. In terms of scoring, it's a little confusing. Wilt definitely COULD have been a better scorer than Kobe but his obsession with playing just like Russell (From '67 onwards) cost him several high scoring seasons. Still, Wilt's all round impact trumps Kobe's extra points.

    Also, I've always thought that Kobe is the most OVERRATED 'clutch' performer in NBA history, so if Kobe's 'clutchness' and Wilt's 'unclutchness' is the reason for your rankings then I think you sorely mistaken.

    Yes, Wilt's '68-'70 stretch did bring him back to the pack, in my opinion. That was his chance to seal his status as the greatest player of all time, to become even better than Russell. He had SEVERAL chances to win at least 2 rings, but came up short in BIG situations.

    But Kobe has STINK BOMBED several times, too (Most notably the '04 & '08 Finals). His 4th quarter shooting in the '09 and '10 Finals was really poor, as well.
    Championships: Kobe 5, Wilt 2
    All-NBA Teams: Kobe 14, Wilt 10
    All-NBA First Teams: Kobe 10, Wilt 7
    All-Star Teams: Kobe 14, Wilt 13

    Kobe surpassed WIlt a long time ago on the All-Time Playoff scoring list, and next season will pass him on the All-Time Regular Season scoring list.

    No you cannot say Wilt had more impact and domination because he played in a much weaker era. Their eras are not comparable.

    Kobe in the '09 and '10 Finals was still the best player and had Pau as his #2, Wilt had Jerry West who was arguably better than him and still lost in '69 and '70, one of those with HCA ('69)

    Kobe record in the Finals: 5-2
    Wilt's record in the Finals: 2-4 (worst in top 10)

    Kobe's record with HCA: 27-2
    Wilt's record with HCA: 13-5 (worst in top 10)

  7. #82
    I eat cheese oolalaa's Avatar
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    Default Re: Game 7 Performances by All-Time Greats

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce Bigalow
    No you cannot say Wilt had more impact and domination because he played in a much weaker era. Their eras are not comparable.


    Wilt had Jerry West who was arguably better than him and still lost in '69 and '70, one of those with HCA ('69)
    There is nothing arguable about it. Jerry West was UNDENIABLY the Lakers best player in '69 & '70 (As well as the best player in the league). 1969 is UNFORGIVABLE for Wilt. It was his worst ever post season, but, it was still better than Kobe's ABOMINABALLY PATHETIC '04 playoffs.

    Kobe record in the Finals: 5-2
    Wilt's record in the Finals: 2-4 (worst in top 10)

    Kobe's record with HCA: 27-2
    Wilt's record with HCA: 13-5 (worst in top 10)
    Between 1960 and 1973 (i.e Wilt's WHOLE career), Wilt only lost twice to teams other than the Boston Celtics (The greatest dynasty in NBA history) and the early 70s Knicks (One of the greatest dynasty's of all time). Twice in 29 playoff series!! What if Kobe had to play against the '08 Celtics and the '11/'12 Heat in the Playoffs/Finals every single year? How many rings would he have? EVERYONE got screwed over in that era.

  8. #83
    Kobe Apostle Deuce Bigalow's Avatar
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    Default Re: Game 7 Performances by All-Time Greats

    Quote Originally Posted by oolalaa
    Check the tape.

  9. #84
    Kobe Apostle Deuce Bigalow's Avatar
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    Default Re: Game 7 Performances by All-Time Greats

    Quote Originally Posted by oolalaa
    Between 1960 and 1973 (i.e Wilt's WHOLE career), Wilt only lost twice to teams other than the Boston Celtics (The greatest dynasty in NBA history) and the early 70s Knicks (One of the greatest dynasty's of all time). Twice in 29 playoff series!! What if Kobe had to play against the '08 Celtics and the '11/'12 Heat in the Playoffs/Finals every single year? How many rings would he have? EVERYONE got screwed over in that era.
    Its a great thing that he took those teams to a Game 7. But lets not act like the Celtics were that great in '69. That was Russell's LAST season, they didn't even win 50 games in the regular season, and they did not have HCA, the Lakers did. Here are his FT-FTA in these CLOSE Game 7s:

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce Bigalow
    Wilt in Game 7s
    '70 Finals, Game 7: 1-11
    '69 Finals, Game 7: 4-13 ...[COLOR="Red"](2 point loss)[/COLOR] (HCA)
    '68 Div Finals, Game 7: 6-15 ...[COLOR="Red"](4 point loss)[/COLOR]
    '65 Div Finals, Game 7: 6-13 ...[COLOR="Red"](1 point loss)[/COLOR]
    '64 Div Semifinals, Game 7: 1-6
    '62 Divisional Finals, Game 7: 8-9

    Total: 26-67, 38.8%
    1969 NBA Finals
    Lakers had HCA and were up 2-0 in the series and also 3-2 after Game 5. Lakers managed to lose the next 2 games including a 2 point loss in Game 7 in which Wilt missed 9 freethrows (4-13) while Jerry West put up 42-13-12 and won Finals MVP. Wilt shot 1-5 from the filed and missed 8 freethrows in a Game 6 loss and 1-5 from the field in game 2. Boston Celtic Sam Jones outscored Wilt Chamberlain in all 4 Game 7s.

    Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 24-66 (36.4%)

    1968 Divisional Finals

    Another HCA series loss for Wilt. Wilt shot 6-21 from the field and missed 15 freethrows in a Game 6 loss. In Game 7, Wilt made 4 field goals and missed 9 freethrows in a 4 point loss. Wilt was the 9th leading scorer and the 5th leading scorer on his own team in that game 7 with 14 points

    1966 Divisional Finals

    His Sixers lost to Boston in 5 games. In the elimination Game 5, Wilt missed 17 freethrows (8-25) in a 8 point loss.

    Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 22-48 (45.8%)

    1962 Divisional Finals
    Coming off his 50.4 ppg season, his PPG in the Playoffs dropped down by 15 points. In Game 7, Wilt was the 4th leading scorer with 22 points in a loss. (50.4 ppg regular season that year)
    Last edited by Deuce Bigalow; 08-08-2012 at 05:23 PM.

  10. #85
    3-time NBA All-Star
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    Default Re: Game 7 Performances by All-Time Greats

    Quote Originally Posted by Hands of Iron
    Because to him it's ALL about statistics down to absolute pin-point percentages and without a morsel of context. He's one of the most ridiculous posters or fans I've ever seen, and seems to hold an extreme agenda against Bird, Kareem and Olajuwon -- and basically anybody being compared to Wilt Chamberlain.
    I have all three of those guys in my top-11. But, from what I have read here, all three are over-rated, particularly Bird and Hakeem. Bird had many flop jobs in his post-season career, lost SEVEN times with HCA, and "only" won three rings playing alongside HOF-laden rosters his entire career. And Hakeem won two rings (one in a season in which MJ did not play), seldom even won 50 games (with a high of 58), and was part of EIGHT first round exits in his 15 post-seasons. Not only that, he won ONE MVP (again, in a season in which MJ took off), came in second, ONE time, and was a top-4 player in FOUR of his 18 seasons. Hell, he wasn't even a top-TEN player in EIGHT of his seasons, or nearly half the time he played.

    Kareem? Probably as many post-season gag jobs as Bird, and in his PRIME, in his first TEN seasons, he went to TWO Finals (choking in a game seven of one...in a blowout loss), and winning his ONLY ring in the weakest decade of champions in NBA history with the easiest run to a title in NBA history. He played with teams that won 53 games (best in the league), 56 games, 59 games, 60 games, and 63 games...that did NOT win a title. And he played with rosters for two straight seasons that had the likes of Nixon, Wilkes, Hudson, and Dantley...that were blown away in the post-season.

    Had Magic not come along and basically salvaged his career, Kareem would have been considered one of the biggest "underachievers" in NBA history.

  11. #86
    Learning to shoot layups Mike Barrett's Avatar
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    Default Re: Game 7 Performances by All-Time Greats

    Rasheed Wallace and his 30 points against the Lakers.

  12. #87
    3-time NBA All-Star
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    Default Re: Game 7 Performances by All-Time Greats

    Coming off his 50.4 ppg season, his PPG in the Playoffs dropped down by 15 points. In Game 7, Wilt was the 4th leading scorer with 22 points in a loss. (50.4 ppg regular season that year)
    Where was Russell's position in that game seven? Or Kareem in game seven of the '74 Finals? Or game seven of the '88 Finals? Or Bird in game seven of the '84 Finals (BTW, he was FIFTH?)

    As for "drop-off" Kobe scored 24 points in a game seven, 121-90 loss against Phoenix, in a season in which he averaged 35.4 ppg. Or how about Kobe shooting .387 in a Finals?

    In fact, has there ever been an "alltime" great who was ROUTED so OFTEN in his post-season career, and in games in which he was simply AWFUL, as Kobe?

  13. #88
    sahelanthropus fpliii's Avatar
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    Default Re: Game 7 Performances by All-Time Greats

    Quote Originally Posted by jlauber
    Where was Russell's position in that game seven? Or Kareem in game seven of the '74 Finals? Or game seven of the '88 Finals? Or Bird in game seven of the '84 Finals (BTW, he was FIFTH?)

    As for "drop-off" Kobe scored 24 points in a game seven, 121-90 loss against Phoenix, in a season in which he averaged 35.4 ppg. Or how about Kobe shooting .387 in a Finals?

    In fact, has there ever been an "alltime" great who was ROUTED so OFTEN in his post-season career, and in games in which he was simply AWFUL, as Kobe?
    jlauber - Did you ever have a chance to check if you have Sam Jones info? I want to do it, but I have to find 1968 ABA box scores to finish off a current project?

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    3-time NBA All-Star
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    Default Re: Game 7 Performances by All-Time Greats

    Quote Originally Posted by fpliii
    jlauber - Did you ever have a chance to check if you have Sam Jones info? I want to do it, but I have to find 1968 ABA box scores to finish off a current project?
    To be honest, I thought you already came up with something like 25 playoff game winning shots. From what I recall, he had something like EIGHT in his Finals.

    And I agree with you, he may have been the greatest "clutch" player in post-season history.

    Very under-rated for sure.

  15. #90
    Lazy Bulls fan Freedom Kid7's Avatar
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    Default Re: Game 7 Performances by All-Time Greats

    Quote Originally Posted by jlauber
    To be honest, I thought you already came up with something like 25 playoff game winning shots. From what I recall, he had something like EIGHT in his Finals.

    And I agree with you, he may have been the greatest "clutch" player in post-season history.

    Very under-rated for sure.
    Jlaubber, I may not agree with you on a lot of stuff, but I can agree with you on that. He was probably the guy who most feared when the buzzer was ticking. Lakers fans and non-Celtic fans probably all went "OH GOD NO NOT THIS GUY NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! SAMUEL ****ING JONES MAN!"

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