CP3 is an underrated competitor

[Young X]

The difference is Paul doesn't have memorable moments and deep playoff runs like those guys...because he's not as good. He's very good, but he's not in the Kobe, Lebron, Dirk tier.

The apex of Paul's career is a first round win over SA, something that hardly anyone will remember, because you know...it was the first round.

Alot of those guys were also in better situations and played with HOF players (along with them being more dominant individually).

CP played his entire prime on very flawed teams in the toughest conference in NBA history. None of the teams he's been were expected to make deep playoff runs and get to the finals.

I don't care what round it happens in, he's shown he can have great moments/performances against the best teams in the league. There should be nobody who isn't a complete idiot that can question his competitiveness.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

CP is a great competitor, but that dimension can often be unwarranted noise.

He's had severe meltdowns in the postseason, and was eliminated by Houston last season in embarrassing fashion (a team they were favored against, and should have beat).

When he starts getting compared to Kobe, MJ, Duncan, LeBron etc., and people want to put him in THAT tier, thats when he gets overrated. He simply doesn't have the signature playoff games and series the aforementioned do.

[DMAVS41]

CP is a great competitor, but that dimension can often be unwarranted noise.

He's had severe meltdowns in the postseason, and was eliminated by Houston last season in embarrassing fashion (a team they were favored against, and should have beat).

When he starts getting compared to Kobe, MJ, Duncan, LeBron etc., and people want to put him in THAT tier, thats when he gets overrated. He simply doesn't have the signature playoff games and series the aforementioned do.

The Spurs series was pretty signature, but you are right...you have to have at least one deep run in which you dominate multiple series

Paul is one of the best players ever and one of the best points ever...I don't see how that could ever be in dispute. The question is how great...not if he is great.

But acting like he's never been on a team that should have made the conference finals is silly...

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

The Spurs series was pretty signature, but you are right...you have to have at least one deep run in which you dominate multiple series at least.

Paul is one of the best players ever and one of the best points ever.

But acting like he's never been on a team that should have made the conference finals is silly...

Yeah, just meant in comparison to those other guys (agree with your last sentence too).

The Spurs series was awesome, and I'll probably always remember his performance in Game 7.. Then again I'm a Clipper fan.

[Young X]

But acting like he's never been on a team that should have made the conference finals is silly...

Not just to make the conference finals but to get to the finals and possibly win a championship. None of CP's teams were capable of doing that.

The Clippers in 2014 were the only team Chris has been on that even had somewhat of a chance at getting there and there were still 2 better teams in the Spurs and OKC in their way.

[DMAVS41]

Not just to make the conference finals but to get to the finals and possibly win a championship. None of Paul's teams were capable of doing that.
The Clippers in 2014 were the only team that even had somewhat of a chance at getting there and their were still 2 better teams in the Spurs and OKC in their way.

This is where we get into some disagreement. Or at least an area where I think you give Paul a pass when there shouldn't for sure be one.

Now, it depends on how good you actually think Paul is.

But if a team like the 11 Mavs can win it all...then there is absolutely no reason teams like the 14 Clippers and 15 Clippers can't win it all...or at least make the finals.

When you say his teams were never capable of doing that...you are really saying Paul isn't capable of doing that with those teams.

Because I can think of plenty of guys that have upset teams in the playoffs and made runs.

So unless you place Paul much lower than me (which I doubt) I just don't see how you can say those teams were incapable of making runs. Based on what?

The only reason they lost the last 2 years was because of historic meltdowns...it's not like they got overmatched in any real way.

[Young X]

This is where we get into some disagreement. Or at least an area where I think you give Paul a pass when there shouldn't for sure be one.

Now, it depends on how good you actually think Paul is.

But if a team like the 11 Mavs can win it all...then there is absolutely no reason teams like the 14 Clippers and 15 Clippers can't win it all...or at least make the finals.

When you say his teams were never capable of doing that...you are really saying Paul isn't capable of doing that with those teams.

Because I can think of plenty of guys that have upset teams in the playoffs and made runs.

So unless you place Paul much lower than me (which I doubt) I just don't see how you can say those teams were incapable of making runs. Based on what?

The only reason they lost the last 2 years was because of historic meltdowns...it's not like they got overmatched in any real way.

The Mavs didn't have any historical teams standing in their way like the Clippers do/did. Even the OKC team they faced in the WCF was clearly inferior to the 2014 version that the Clippers went up against.

Don't get me wrong, their run was very impressive but do you honestly see them getting to the finals in the 2014 and 2015 western conference?

[PsychoBe]

The Mavs didn't have any historical teams standing in their way like the Clippers do/did. Even the OKC team they faced in the WCF was clearly inferior to the 2014 version that the Clippers went up against.

Don't get me wrong, their run was very impressive but do you honestly see them getting to the finals in the 2014 and 2015 western conference?

omg i can't breathe

i bet dirk is smiling ear to ear that he didn't have to face the almighty 2014 houston rockets

*** outta here

[DMAVS41]

The Mavs didn't have any historical teams standing in their way like the Clippers do/did. Even the OKC team they faced in the WCF was clearly inferior to the 2014 version that the Clippers went up against.

Don't get me wrong, their run was very impressive but do you honestly see them getting to the finals in the 2014 and 2015 western conference?

You guys lost to the Rockets...not the Warriors. So that part needs to be clear.

I don't know the answer to that...I definitely think that Mavs team in 11 gives a team like the Warriors a lot of trouble actually. I think the Warriors would win, but the way the Mavs were playing in 11? I'd never say that they had no chance.

If the Cavs could do what they did to the Warriors in the finals...the Mavs could have really given them a run. The Mavs could have really slowed the game down on offense with Dirk working out of the post (like Lebron) and then would have been able to throw the likes of Kidd, Stevenson, and Marion at Curry.

I'm not saying what would or wouldn't happen though...you are. You are the one putting limits on a team that showed no signs of being outclassed other than their two meltdowns.

I mean...I think this is why Paul takes a lot of heat here at times. You are acting like they had no chance to beat the Thunder in 14...when the only reason the Clippers weren't going home to clinch the series was one of the most awful sequences a star player has had in playoff history.

I just don't like putting limits on teams that show they are in the class of the elite every time they play...but lose because they meltdown...at least the last 2 years.

So when you say his teams weren't capable...to me...that isn't true...and basically just means Paul isn't capable of being on a team that doesn't meltdown...and I can't imagine you actually think that...I certainly don't.

Also, I don't want to derail the thread, but the 11 Heat once again get so overlooked. The 15 Warriors didn't play a team 75% as good as the 11 Heat....and ****...almost got down in a huge hole to a Cavs team maybe 50% as good as the 11 Heat. Again, Lebron choked in 11...but he did so against a team that caused it with their scheme and ability to make James uncomfortable. The 15 Warriors...even though they held James in check from an efficiency standpoint...did not make him uncomfortable on the court...and I can't imagine they would be able to do a better job while also having to deal with Wade and Bosh.

Not saying the Warriors lose for sure or something, but we can't just pretend like the Mavs didn't have something to actually say about Lebron choking...and quite frankly, the 11 Mavs match up much better against a team like the 11 Heat than the Warriors of last year did. Wade/Lebron probably just rape them to be honest...they might still win, but Green/Klay would be on the bench in foul trouble nearly every 1st qtr....and that means Curry would actually have to guard Wade at times...and that would be a blood bath often.

[Young X]

You guys lost to the Rockets...not the Warriors. So that part needs to be clear.

I don't know the answer to that...I definitely think that Mavs team in 11 gives a team like the Warriors a lot of trouble actually. I think the Warriors would win, but the way the Mavs were playing in 11? I'd never say that they had no chance.

If the Cavs could do what they did to the Warriors in the finals...the Mavs could have really given them a run. The Mavs could have really slowed the game down on offense with Dirk working out of the post (like Lebron) and then would have been able to throw the likes of Kidd, Stevenson, and Marion at Curry.

I'm not saying what would or wouldn't happen though...you are. You are the one putting limits on a team that showed no signs of being outclassed other than their two meltdowns.

I mean...I think this is why Paul takes a lot of heat here at times. You are acting like they had no chance to beat the Thunder in 14...when the only reason the Clippers weren't going him to clinch the series was one of the most awful sequences a star player has had in playoff history.

I just don't like putting limits on teams that show they are in the class of the elite every time they play...but lose because they meltdown...at least the last 2 years.

So when you say his teams weren't capable...to me...that isn't true...and basically just means Paul isn't capable of being on a team that doesn't meltdown...and I can't imagine you actually think that...I certainly don't.

Just for the record I'm talking about getting to the finals. When I say "historical teams" I'm talking about the '14 Spurs and '15 Warriors. Both are 2 teams that the Clippers had very little chance of getting past.

You yourself agree that the Mavs would likely lose to the Warriors. What about the 2014 Spurs?

And I'm putting a limit on a team that doesn't have any perimeter defense or anyone who can create anything offensively in tight situations besides their 5'11 PG.

Same team that loses leads and goes into huge deficits when they sit that same PG on the bench.

Same team that has no rim protection and rebounding late in games because they can't play their 34% FT shooting big man.

The Clippers are NOT in that class of championship contenders. They are way too flawed and play in too tough of a conference to be so.

[ArbitraryWater]

Just for the record I'm talking about getting to the finals. When I say "historical teams" I'm talking about the '14 Spurs and '15 Warriors. Both are 2 teams that the Clippers had very little chance of getting past.

You yourself agree that the Mavs would likely lose to the Warriors. What about the 2014 Spurs?

And I'm putting a limit on a team that doesn't have any perimeter defense or anyone who can create anything offensively in tight situations besides their 5'11 PG.

Same team that loses leads and goes into huge deficits when they sit that same PG on the bench.

Same team that has no rim protection and rebounding late in games because they can't play their 34% FT shooting big man.

The Clippers are NOT in that class of championship contenders. They are way too flawed and play in too tough of a conference to be so.

except its a team that could very definitely beat championship contenders... they did JUST THAT in 2015 then lost to an inferior squad...

and again, Paul threw away game 5 in 2014, they had that one too

I revised the officiating for that one, I had a bit more sympathy for it than when it went down.. when it went down it felt like a straight rig job, but really, the worst part of that one was Paul's late TO.

[DMAVS41]

Just for the record I'm talking about getting to the finals. When I say "historical teams" I'm talking about the '14 Spurs and '15 Warriors. Both are 2 teams that the Clippers had very little chance of getting past.

You yourself agree that the Mavs would likely lose to the Warriors. What about the 2014 Spurs?

And I'm putting a limit on a team that doesn't have any perimeter defense or anyone who can create anything offensively in tight situations besides their 5'11 PG.

Same team that loses leads and goes into huge deficits when they sit that same PG on the bench.

Same team that has no rim protection and rebounding late in games because they can't play their 34% FT shooting big man.

The Clippers are NOT in that class of championship contenders. They are way too flawed and play in too tough of a conference to be so.

A few things;

1. I disagree that the Clippers could not beat the 14 Spurs and 15 Warriors. Why do you just assume this? The Clippers just got done beating the Spurs and have looked just as good or better than elite teams in playoff series until the meltdowns. Real flaws in teams show more than just losing a really tight series with meltdowns. Preventative flaws are when the team gets run even when the star or stars play well. The Clippers just don't have those man...they play well...they seem to be as good or better than anyone.

2. I'm saying I don't know what would happen. If you asked me if I thought the 11 Mavs could beat the 11 Lakers and 11 Heat...I'd call you insane midway through the 11 season...pretty sure I wrongly did call Mavs fans that.

The way the Mavs were playing in 11 in the playoffs...there is simply no current era team I've seen that I'd be terrified of. I say that they probably would have lost...just assuming a regression to the mean.

But if Dirk plays as amazing as he did in the 2nd round and WCF against the Warriors and Spurs...I like the Mavs chances because he'd be the best player on the court...and we'd have a coach/team in place to cause trouble, big trouble, for both the Warriors and Spurs.

Did you watch the 14 playoffs? Do you not remember seeing a far worse Mavs team take the Spurs to 7? Lets tap the brakes on these limits man...you tell me Dirk is going to have a 10 game stretch of 30/8/3 70% TS with all time elite clutch play? Yea...I'll take my chances against those teams because they don't have anyone that could guard Dirk one on one without getting into foul trouble...so you'd have to double...and doubling plays right into the hands of the 11 Mavs team with hot shooters everywhere. And the Warriors, specifically, would have had to go up against a defensive lineup that could really give them problems. Now, that small ball lineup would have been really tough for the Mavs because Dirk would have to play center, but I think they could slow the game down enough via their offense to set up the defense routinely enough to not get killed.

3. You often ask why Paul takes so much criticism. It's because of his fans talking about not being able to beat the Spurs and Warriors...when you guys didn't lose to them. You lost to the Thunder and Rockets...and only lost because of horrific meltdowns. Nobody would criticize the Clippers and Paul nearly as much if they had just lost in the conference finals to the Spurs or Warriors...especially not without melting down.

These flaws you see in your team certainly don't seem to impact them until the very end of games in which Paul and or Blake just stop playing real basketball and either make boneheaded plays or don't do anything to stop the team from melting down. It's just a regular season game, but we saw this yet again last night. Stars have to prevent that shit from happening...

[Young X]

except its a team that could very definitely beat championship contenders... they did JUST THAT in 2015 then lost to an inferior squad...

and again, Paul threw away game 5 in 2014, they had that one too

I revised the officiating for that one, I had a bit more sympathy for it than when it went down.. when it went down it felt like a straight rig job, but really, the worst part of that one was Paul's late TO.

Beating an elite team and being able to potentially win 16 playoff games in the playoffs are 2 different things.

The 2015 Clippers had no chance of winning 4 series in the playoffs. You can't tell me you ever felt they were capable of seriously winning it all. They would've gotten killed by the Warriors.

The Clippers up to this point are just like the Grizzlies. Tough team but way too flawed to win a title. Especially in this kinda conference.

[DMAVS41]

Beating an elite team and being able to potentially win 16 playoff games in the playoffs are 2 different things.

The 2015 Clippers had no chance of winning 4 series in the playoffs. You can't tell me you ever felt they were capable of seriously winning it all. They would've gotten killed by the Warriors.

The Clippers up to this point are just like the Grizzlies. Tough team but way too flawed to win a title. Especially in this kinda conference.

I see virtually no evidence of this unless you are saying it's a team full of players that can't avoid a meltdown...I don't think this is the case, but perhaps it is.

They would have been killed by the Warriors? Why? Paul couldn't have slowed the game down a bit and outplayed Curry in a series? That's all it would take to give them a great chance at winning.

They seem to sure play the Warriors damn close for being a much worse team. Two games they should have won already this year...and while they went 1-3 last year...they lost a very close game in which they were leading going into the 4th and got outscored by 10 late.

Just doesn't speak to a hugely overmatched team...

[ArbitraryWater]

Beating an elite team and being able to potentially win 16 playoff games in the playoffs are 2 different things.

The 2015 Clippers had no chance of winning 4 series in the playoffs. You can't tell me you ever felt they were capable of seriously winning it all. They would've gotten killed by the Warriors.

The Clippers up to this point are just like the Grizzlies. Tough team but way too flawed to win a title. Especially in this kinda conference.

That wasnt the overall feeling at the time at all, though.. after they beat the Spurs, everybody expected them to trash the Rockets (which they did, even without CP3), and get ready for a GOAT level WCF between GSW and LAC...