Shaq breaks on all the other centers...

[juju151111]

Even if I were to agree with your points here, (and they are valid), Shaq STILL pretty much outplayed Hakeem in those "prime Hakeem" years. AND, Shaq was nowhere near his peak in '95, either.

What amazes me, though, is that Hakeem is basically being credited with outplaying Shaq, for their CAREERS, by so many...for that '95 Final series (and in which Shaq had a case as being at least Hakeem's equal.) And once again, exclude that '95 series, and in the rest of their 24 H2H games Shaq was clearly the more dominant player.

Same with the Robinson-Hakeem battles. Hakeem easily outplayed Robinson in ONE playoff series, covering six games. BUT, how about their other 42 H2H games?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...1&p2=olajuha01

Robinson matched Hakeem in virtually EVERY single category. In fact, it is almost a mirror image, except that Hakeem slightly outscored Robinson, 21.9 ppg to 19.6 ppg, while Robinson had a solid .488 to .441 edge in FG%. Oh, and BTW, Robinson's TEAMs went 30-12 against Hakeem's.

Yea, but I gurentee you Drob has nightmares of Hakeem. Drob got embarrass when it mattered. This was him in his prime against Hakeem last year in his prime. If he was so dominate, why he let Hakeem school him like a punk? Hakeem in the playoffs is not the same.

[Fatal9]

Same with the Robinson-Hakeem battles. Hakeem easily outplayed Robinson in ONE playoff series, covering six games. BUT, how about their other 42 H2H games?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...1&p2=olajuha01

Robinson matched Hakeem in virtually EVERY single category. In fact, it is almost a mirror image, except that Hakeem slightly outscored Robinson, 21.9 ppg to 19.6 ppg, while Robinson had a solid .488 to .441 edge in FG%. Oh, and BTW, Robinson's TEAMs went 30-12 against Hakeem's.

1. In many games Hakeem or D-Rob didn't defend each other for majority of the game to avoid foul trouble. Both would play help defense on the other (which is why you expect stats of both to go down, as you have to not only beat your man but then an all-time defender helping on you as well). A guy like Carr for example might guard Hakeem for 3 quarters and then D-Rob takes over. Why can't you understand a simple point like this? Have you ever actually watched a basketball game?

In the '95 playoffs they let D-Rob finally guard Hakeem one on one for most of the games, so they didn't have to double/help on Hakeem as much (or the Rocket shooters would kill them), and Hakeem "bamboozled" him.

2. Even if you want to look at stats blindly, over '93-'96, when BOTH Hakeem and D-Rob were in their primes. This is how the stats come out (20 games):

Hakeem - 27/12/4/4 on 47.3%
D-Rob - 22/13/4/3 on 46.1%

3. All it takes is watching/understanding their games to know who (obviously) the better player was. Should try that some time instead of posting a bunch of numbers with no context. Also this doesn't even begin to look at both their playoff careers, one guy is one of the best performers while the other was a disappointment.

[Pointguard]

So many things wrong this statement.

Please, pick a starting point or points. Ir was only one sentence long but please, lets' get it on.

[AlphaWolf24]

Anyone with an ounce of Basketball instinct knows ....(from watching) the 1995 Finals showed technique / skill vs Strength and size.....Dream merked Shaq attack everywhere on the court..

it was fun to watch...

[ShaqAttack3234]

Please, pick a starting point or points. Ir was only one sentence long but please, lets' get it on.

Ok, so you think Duncan would've won more if he had Shaq's teams, right?

If so, lets say rookie Duncan is drafted onto the '92-'93 Magic and follows Shaq's career path through 14 seasons(4 years with Orlando, 8 with LA, 2 with Miami). How many rings do you see him winning?

I give him a 50/50 chance to win in '98, I'll give '99 probable, '02 possible, but unlikely they get by the Kings with 10th year Duncan('07 version) in 10th year Shaq's place. '03 is possible with 11th year Duncan, but also unlikely. Not much of a chance after that.

So probably 1-2 titles if his career followed the same path as Shaq's, with a chance(albeit a slim chance) of duplicating Shaq's 4.

Anything you disagree with?

[AlphaWolf24]

Kobe and Duncan work so much better then Kobe and Shaq...

6 Titles together book it.

[NugzHeat3]

Sabonis would have owned Shaq. We saw how bad shaq was with barely any injuries at the same age that Sabonis was when he came over. I wish I could see 1990 Sabonis vs 2009 Shaq and see who looks better. Shaq would be singing a different tune right now. Shaq also got spanked by a young Tim Duncan.

**** out of here with Sabonis would have owned Shaq. Sabonis is lucky as hell Portland had great help defenders and a great team defense to "limit" Shaq below his standards.

What happened to Sabonis when Portland tried playing Shaq one on one in game 1 of the 1997 playoffs? 46 points on an insanely good shooting percent.

[SHAQUILLE O'Neal] doesn't profess to be angry, or hyped, or at all awed by the moment, but there is an edge to him. The Blazers sagged and swarmed and generally made his life miserable Friday night to force this showdown, holding O'Neal to only 17 points.

O'Neal and [Pippen], the two main men, had a pretty intense board meeting Friday. The Lakers centre was given a flagrant foul for banging Pippen to the floor, catching him with the body and to the head with his huge right forearm; part of a growing sense of ill will between the two clubs.

About the only thing to get his blood above room temperature, it seems, is the notion that Portland's Arvydas Sabonis is causing him problems. "He doesn't guard me: Sabonis, Pippen and Rasheed Wallace guard me," he said. He's getting a little tired of it. Maybe that will translate into bad news for Portland tonight. But don't see Game 7 as a quest for personal validation. "I've never worried about the public's perception," O'Neal said. "I have my own perception of myself. I will be somewhat satisfied as a player. But that's it."

^From the 2000 playoffs. What Sabonis had was a good combination of lower and upper body strength to hold Shaq a bit till double team help came from the perimeter or the weakside. But Shaq would kill this guy with his speed, quickness and first step in single coverage.

"Shaq's unstoppable," Rider said. "If we didn't double-team Shaq, he would get 50 points against Sabonis. You double- and triple-team Shaq every time he touches the ball.

``Shaquille can go for 50 if I'm not given help,'' admitted Sabonis, and, indeed , O'Neal easily would have gone for 50 had not his coach, Del Harris.....

^1997 and 1998 playoffs.

But tell me more about Arvydas Sabonis please.

[L8kersfan222]

troll

[NugzHeat3]

Let's be honest here, somebody with the ego the size of Shaq's, isn't going to be 'kind' to just any random guy he's played against. The fact that Shaq didn't bother mentioning Duncan, Mutombo, or any other center he played with, is a mark of how much he respected Hakeem. jlauber, I respect your NBA knowledge and vociferous defence of old school players, but I would believe the guy who actually played in the NBA Finals against Hakeem, and got humbled so much he actually respects him, rather than the numbers.



Also, Shaq specifically said he couldn't 'defeat' Hakeem not because of any physical trait, like having a higher vertical or more strength or quicker, but mentality. And I seriously doubt that would change 'given a few more years'.

And I don't think it's 100% fair to use the Houston-Orlando series against Shaq, because he was most guarded by Charles Jones anyway, not Hakeem during that series.

No, Shaq was guarded most of the time by Hakeem. Charles Jones guarded him for the 57 minutes he played in that series which is about 25% of the series or around that.

There's a lot of myths regarding that series. The biggest ones being Hakeem owned Shaq or that Hakeem outplayed Shaq in the clutch.

There were two games that came to crunch time, games 1 and 3 and Shaq was easily the better player in both 4th quarters. In game 1, he had 12 points and 5 rebounds in the 4th and played good defense on Hakeem late in the game.

In game 3, he had 11 points in the 4th and held Hakeem to 6 points on 3/8 shooting in the 4th. Watch the last 7 minutes of the game and tell me you're not impressed by Shaq's defense.

Hakeem did outplay Shaq but its because of the little things. Shaq's transition defense in that series was terrible because he was so intent on getting position on Hakeem for offensive boards but Hakeem did a good job boxing him out. He also didn't get back on time.

Of course, Shaq averaged 5.25 turnovers as well partly due to Hakeem drawing fouls, couple of steals and a few passes that were intercepted.

Hakeem didn't shoot that well but part of the reason is due to the Rockets game plan.

" maybe try to get Hakeem outside a little bit more to take Shaq away from the basket so if guys cut, there will be no shot-blocking and that leaves the boards open for a couple of offensive rebounds," Houston's Mario Elie said.

^The Rockets wanted Hakeem to draw Shaq out of the paint so it left for offensive rebounding opportunities. I would love to see how many of Hakeem's missed shots resulted in easy putbacks or buckets for his team. Based on memory, I'd say around 10.

Hakeem also took a couple of bailout shots and was fouled on 1 or 2 that wasn't called and that's also a slight difference between shooting in the high 40s or 50.

A few of Shaq's missed shots also resulted in putbacks because he was also drawing a lot of defensive attention which Horace Grant benefitted from. Although not to the same extent as Hakeem because Hakeem could pull Shaq away from the basket to a greater extent than Shaq could.

I would say Shaq and Hakeem were virtually even in games 1 and 3 and Hakeem was better in games 2 and 4.

Everything I've read regarding game 2 tells me Hakeem dominated Shaq in the first half in single coverage and had 22 points while helping the Rockets build a huge lead that could not be overcome. Hakeem was better thta game despite stats telling you otherwise. Shaq had 23 points in the second but most of them weren't as valuable as Hakeem's though Shaq deserves credit for not giving up.

That series was decided by the shooters though. Hakeem and Shaq did their thing and didn't have trouble scoring in single coverage.

[NugzHeat3]

Like usual, amazed by your inability to look at stats in context. Half the games are past Hakeem's prime, while all the games are when Shaq was young and either in his prime or close to it. Through '96 their numbers were 25/11/5/3.5 on 46% for Hakeem to 22/14/3/1.5 on 57% for Shaq.

And basketball, ESPECIALLY for centers is not a one on one game. While the regular season games I've seen Shaq/Hakeem guarded each other more than say D-Rob/Hakeem did, the 90s centers went a lot of games without guarding each other much in the first 2-3 quarters to avoid foul trouble. Also completely different help defenders, different teammates to create shots etc etc etc.

This isn't something Shaq has said one time to be nice (that Hakeem was his toughest challenge, or he couldn't outplay him etc etc), this is something he's said for basically his entire career, so I'm pretty sure he means/believes this.

I've read the recaps for a few of Shaq/Hakeem battles and most of them didn't focus on the match up between the two basically telling us that it was a wash between the two.

You're right though. They didn't guard each other a lot although I think Hakeem guarded Shaq more than Shaq guarded him.

The Magic would parlay the switch - involving [HORACE GRANT] on [Hakeem Olajuwon] and O'Neal on unheralded Mark Bryant - into a 92-90 victory in the O-rena that extended Orlando's home winning streak to 15 games.

^Christmas day 1995.

In addition, Grant got the defensive call on Olajuwon and limited him to 1-for-7 shooting in the quarter as the Magic built a 25-8 lead. Olajuuwon's only basket was a falling-down prayer in the lane."Thanks for noticing that," Grant said. "I thought I was working as hard as I could."The Rockets were working without an ailing Robert Horry, back in Houston suffering from intestinal distress. But he couldn't have looked much sicker than his teammates, who shot 3-for-20 in the opening quarter and dug themselves a hole from which they could not escape.

^From Nov 1994.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...s+hakeem&hl=en

^January 1994. Rollins guarding Hakeem is shown as the turning point.

I would like to see the game they played in January 1996. Shaq had a GW putback and a GW block.

[ShaqAttack3234]

troll

what?

**** out of here with Sabonis would have owned Shaq. Sabonis is lucky as hell Portland had great help defenders and a great team defense to "limit" Shaq below his standards.

What happened to Sabonis when Portland tried playing Shaq one on one in game 1 of the 1997 playoffs? 46 points on an insanely good shooting percent.


^From the 2000 playoffs. What Sabonis had was a good combination of lower and upper body strength to hold Shaq a bit till double team help came from the perimeter or the weakside. But Shaq would kill this guy with his speed, quickness and first step in single coverage.





^1997 and 1998 playoffs.

But tell me more about Arvydas Sabonis please.

Good post, here are some examples I've used to show how much Portland's entire team focused on him right from the start of that series.

First touch of the series- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6y3GGuQYfwQ#t=3m28s

Despite getting good position, the help comes as soon as he puts the ball on the floor- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6y3GGuQYfwQ#t=4m30s

Doubled almost as soon as he catches the ball- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6y3GGuQYfwQ#t=5m44s

Pippen is completely playing off Harper- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6y3GGuQYfwQ#t=8m23s

Again, as soon as he catches the ball, Pippen runs over to double- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyt48...elated#t=9m09s

That's just the 1st quarter of the first game, and it continued.

Entire team is focused on Shaq, whether it's the initial double, or the repost and the move into the lane. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9kTt...elated#t=1m16s

Even in transition, they get back and triple him. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9kTt...elated#t=1m43s

As was the case the majority of the series, Pippen was concerned with his man(Shaw) and was there to double Shaq before he put the ball on the floor- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6ljR...elated#t=1m33s

That was typical, teams often wouldn't worry about AC Green or Ron Harper's offense and with Portland, Rasheed Wallace was obviously matched up with AC Green and Scottie Pippen was put on Harper for that reason, so you pretty much had 2 elite defensive forwards focusing on Shaq often before he could put the ball on the floor.

So I don't understand the logic that Sabonis had some success against Shaq in 2000 or 2001 so that means a younger Sabonis would own him, when Sabonis was younger and better in '97 and '98 and Shaq wasn't as good as the '00 or '01 version yet, and he put up huge numbers against him back then.

Which proves that the help defenders and defensive schemes are more important.

If you just look at head to head stats on basketball-reference, then you'll see that often when a center is out of his prime, he "holds" a center in his prime to lower numbers than when he was in his own prime. That's because usually when 2 centers faced each other in their prime and they were both expected to score a lot, their teams didn't want them risking foul trouble trying to shut down the other center as Fatal stated so they'd use different match ups or double a lot.

And for further proof of why looking at "head to head" stats in a box score proves nothing.

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL3F2380F9FF5EA2DD

Posted that game a while ago, and you can see that Jr Reid and Antoine Carr guarded Hakeem most of the game, and while Hakeem guarded Robinson more than Robinson guarded him, Otis Thorpe also guarded Robinson quite a bit.

No, Shaq was guarded most of the time by Hakeem. Charles Jones guarded him for the 57 minutes he played in that series which is about 25% of the series or around that.

There's a lot of myths regarding that series. The biggest ones being Hakeem owned Shaq or that Hakeem outplayed Shaq in the clutch.

There were two games that came to crunch time, games 1 and 3 and Shaq was easily the better player in both 4th quarters. In game 1, he had 12 points and 5 rebounds in the 4th and played good defense on Hakeem late in the game.

In game 3, he had 11 points in the 4th and held Hakeem to 6 points on 3/8 shooting in the 4th. Watch the last 7 minutes of the game and tell me you're not impressed by Shaq's defense.

Hakeem did outplay Shaq but its because of the little things. Shaq's transition defense in that series was terrible because he was so intent on getting position on Hakeem for offensive boards but Hakeem did a good job boxing him out. He also didn't get back on time.

Of course, Shaq averaged 5.25 turnovers as well partly due to Hakeem drawing fouls, couple of steals and a few passes that were intercepted.

Hakeem didn't shoot that well but part of the reason is due to the Rockets game plan.

^The Rockets wanted Hakeem to draw Shaq out of the paint so it left for offensive rebounding opportunities. I would love to see how many of Hakeem's missed shots resulted in easy putbacks or buckets for his team. Based on memory, I'd say around 10.

Hakeem also took a couple of bailout shots and was fouled on 1 or 2 that wasn't called and that's also a slight difference between shooting in the high 40s or 50.

A few of Shaq's missed shots also resulted in putbacks because he was also drawing a lot of defensive attention which Horace Grant benefitted from. Although not to the same extent as Hakeem because Hakeem could pull Shaq away from the basket to a greater extent than Shaq could.

I would say Shaq and Hakeem were virtually even in games 1 and 3 and Hakeem was better in games 2 and 4.

Everything I've read regarding game 2 tells me Hakeem dominated Shaq in the first half in single coverage and had 22 points while helping the Rockets build a huge lead that could not be overcome. Hakeem was better thta game despite stats telling you otherwise. Shaq had 23 points in the second but most of them weren't as valuable as Hakeem's though Shaq deserves credit for not giving up.

That series was decided by the shooters though. Hakeem and Shaq did their thing and didn't have trouble scoring in single coverage.

Another excellent post, and yes, the recaps you've read about game 2 are accurate. Shaq got in foul trouble in the first half of game 2 trying to guard Hakeem with more single coverage and Hakeem dominated the first half when the game was ultimately decided while Orlando couldn't really make a serious threat in the second half when Shaq got most of his numbers making them look at least even in the box score when in reality, Hakeem clearly outplayed Shaq.

As far as who I give the edge to individually.

Game 1- Shaq
Game 2- Hakeem
Game 3- Basically even
Game 4- Hakeem

Hakeem's advantage in games 2 and 4 was decisive and ultimately, he swept Shaq(though game 1 was all but in the bag and the game going to OT had nothing to do with either center), so Hakeem definitely got the better of the match up for the series, it was not even, but Shaq wasn't schooled either. I think most on this board acknowledge both facts by now.

[Inactive]

and that is why points > rebounds, fg and everything else

Do you realize how dumb that is?

Rebounds/steal get you possessions. Turnovers, and missed shots cost you possessions. If you don't have possessions, you can't score. If you don't use possessions efficiently (high TS%, low TOV%), you have to rebound/steal the ball more, in order to get the opportunity to outscore your opponent.

[millwad]

Guys, great posts about the '95 finals. It's a misconception that some fans think Hakeem killed Shaq during the finals. Even though we all in this thread, beside Jlauber (shocker) agree that Shaq got outplayed he still had a great series.

Shaq should get more credit for his '95 season, not only did he come in 2nd place in the MVP-voting, he was also the the scoringchamp while shooting the 2nd highest FG% of that season and the 3rd best rebounder that season

And some others are taking the word "outplayed" as a too big of a deal, being outplayed doesn't mean that you get crushed or dominated big time, it only means that your opponent played better than you. And someone who gets outplayed like Shaq in '95 can still play really good..

[millwad]

And Jlauber, the only reason why I replied to your stupid comment was that I find it funny that you of all people claim that the series basically was a draw when even Shaq-fans claim that Shaq got outplayed.

I know you're butthurt over Hakeem but breath, seriously. And I find it funny that you still don't know what "decisively" means.

And it's funny that you wrote about Hakeem getting crushed by Hakeem in '99 when Hakeem was 36 but at the same time you whined when I mentioned a playoffs-series when Wilt was 35, even younger than the Hakeem you brought up.

And it's also funny that you of all people who always spam about Wilt's stats never ever put up the stats of that series on this site, why is that? And the "everyone" you always write about is one article you even misread (on purpose)..

This is why I have 0 respect for you, you play with stats when it fits you and when it doesn't you "forget" to bring up the stats and all you do is put up often irrelevant quotes and articles. You change opinion so often just to make the current statement you're trying to make valid. You're garbage.

[MiseryCityTexas]

hell yeah. duncan destroyed shaq in 2004 also.