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  1. #1
    Titles are overrated Kblaze8855's Avatar
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    Default ISH All-time Top 25 Forwards Project #17: Dennis Rodman vs Elvin Hayes.

    If you are wondering how Rodman got past Arizin....

    The combo of the derailing discussion on how GOAT no longer wanted ISH voting for...whatever reason....it not being a terribly interesting discussion with one of the players being largely unknown...and me simply finding it boring....plus no longer concerning myself with Goats process...

    I just looked over the initial voting lists(Rodman and Pau lwere nearly tied), considered their rankings on past ISH lists(our top 100 from 07 had Rodman 48 and Palu lin the 60s), and a couple others(slam top 500 for example had rodman 48 Paul 71) and concluded rodman was likely the more highly regarded player.

    Plus I have nothing to talk about basketball wise at the moment and im interested in the next several matchups(Pippen, dirk, Nique, Mchale, and baylor are up next...but not in that order).

    So...





    5 time NBA champion
    2 time NBA all star
    2 time defensive player of the year
    2 time all nba team(3rd)
    8 time all defense. 7 first team
    Led NBA in field goal percentage in 1989
    Led the NBA in rebounds 7 seasons in a row and was second the season before he started that run
    Elected to NBA hall of fame in 2011
    Holds NBA finals record for offensive rebounds




    I was gonna recycle the quote since the last discussion never really started...but I found a fititng discussion by Elvin Hayes on Rodman which I find nice...


    What else they were saying:


    SLAM: Speaking of one-dimensional, what do you think about the hype surrounding Dennis Rodman’s rebounding?

    HAYES: Dennis is a really sad case. His ability has been overshadowed by all the little disguises and off-the-court antics. He has been one of the greatest rebounders in a long time, one of the greatest to ever play the game, but he will never get the full attention or accolades of the basketball world.

    SLAM: Okay, but you averaged 17 rebounds your rookie year - along with 28 points. How many boards do you think you or Wilt or Nate could have averaged if you did nothing but go for the glass on every shot?

    HAYES: Still, thats a specialty, and you got to give it credit. There were always guys like that. Bailey Howell was one of the greatest rebounders I ever saw. Johnny Green was a specialty rebounder. Satch Sanders was just a defensive player with the Boston Celtics. KC Jones was one of the great players, and he was strictly defensive. Al Attles was like that. Guy Rodgers was strictly an assist guy for Wilt. You have some guys who are specialty guys, and Rodman is one of them. And he is one of the best at it and would have been in any era.
    Why it matters? I think Hayes is one of many legends who have more respect for Rodman than ive seen from quite a few people who suggest he got a lot of rebounds just by caring about them more than anything. The people who had t ogo get them know its harder than just...wanting it.


    Vs




    12 time all star
    1978 NBA champion
    6 time all NBA(3 first)
    2 time all defensive second team
    Top 5 in blocks in 5 seasons
    Led the NBA in rebounds twice(he is the only player other than Rodman to get 18 a game after wilt retired)
    Led the NBA in scoring once and top 3 in 3 seasons
    8th leading scorer in NBA history
    4th leading rebounderi n NBA history
    Career 21/13/2 player with single season highs of 28 points, 18 rebounds, 3 blocks, and 2 steals



    Hayes is at times listed as overrated...I saw him listed as like the 3rd most overrated player ever a while back. but the more I look into it a lot of it was likely coaching issues...which I will get into in a moment....

  2. #2
    Titles are overrated Kblaze8855's Avatar
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    Default Re: ISH All-time Top 25 Forwards Project #17: Dennis Rodman vs Elvin Hayes.

    Im gonna post two things people were saying...one from Charley Rosen who is often dismissed but im sure he at least watched a lot of hayes:

    Elvin Hayes
    He could do three things — rebound, block shots, and shoot a high percentage on turnaround jumpers from the left box. He couldn't pass, handle, play honest defense, or hit a clutch shot to get into heaven. In addition, he paid no attention to the basketball alphabet of Xs and Os. All he cared about was "me-ball-basket."
    And here is one from Tex Winter and Elvin discussing why he had such issues. Its an interesting read to me but was too long for the first post:


    Hayes' rookie season with the San Diego Rockets was like an extension of his college career. He was the Western Division starting center in the NBA All-Star game, ahead of Chamberlain. He led the league in scoring, finished fourth in rebounding and carried the Rockets, a 15-67 expansion team the year before, into the playoffs. He had come out of his shell and was running around Hollywood and Las Vegas with movie stars and appearing on television shows. Everything was beautiful.

    The next year things changed drastically. Some of his teammates, particularly Forward Don Kojis, Hayes believes, became jealous of his celebrity, his money and his special relationship with owner Bob Breitbard. Kojis demanded a trade and dissension grew. Coach Jack McMahon, now the assistant at Philadelphia, was caught in the middle. When the team's record was 9-17, McMahon was fired. Hayes was blamed. Into the breach came Hannum, a caustic drill-sergeant type, who had had successful NBA coaching stints in St. Louis, Philadelphia and San Francisco.

    "His thing was 'I'm gonna break him'—like I'm a horse," Hayes says. "So every little thing I do, he jumps on me. He's going to make me an example. He would holler and curse at me all the time. It was 'Hayes this' and 'Hayes that.' Hayes! Hayes! Hayes!"

    "He was spoiled," says Hannum, now in the construction business in California. "Because of his relationship with the owner, I had no authority with him. I guess the climate in pro sports was changing and I was not willing to change with it. Hayes was exactly the kind of player I did not want. He's a front-runner. Put him in a situation where there's tension and he does not face it with courage. Give him a challenge and he'll always find some excuse to fold. I still believe it. Even last year, the Bullets won despite him rather than because of him."

    The following year the Rockets were 40-42 and missed the playoffs by one game. Hannum wanted Hayes gone, but Breitbard refused. When Hannum quit to join Denver in the ABA, it was widely assumed and reported that Hayes got him fired. "It was always, 'Hayes got the coach fired,' " says Hayes. "They used to say the same thing about Wilt. Well, Wilt used to say, 'Oh yeah? Well how many did I hire?' "

    Hayes was miserable in his second and third seasons in San Diego. Newspapers regularly blasted him when the Rockets lost. It was then he made the mistake of engaging in a running battle with a San Diego Union reporter. "Every morning he would have written something else about me," Hayes says, "and every night I would be on radio or TV saying something about him. Every day, he and I. It got ridiculous. It was the ultimate sin. I should have known then I couldn't win. Now I do know, so I keep quiet.

    "All of a sudden the thing that's been my only joy in my whole life—going to the gym, playing ball, exploding, setting myself free—had become an agony. I was totally unhappy, disgusted with it all. I was taking stomach pills, sleeping pills, I lived on Alka-Seltzer, Turns, Rolaids. I always had a pocketful of them. I used to wake up in the middle of the night and think I was dying. One day I read one of those stories about me and I said to myself, 'Wow, where does it all end? The best thing to do is kill myself.' I lived up in the hills of La Jolla and I'd be driving home late at night—I had this fast car—and the thought of just running it off the road was always with me."

    It seemed as if Hayes' problems were over during the summer of 1971 when he learned that the Rockets were moving to his beloved Houston. But the relief was short-lived. His new coach was Tex Winter, an NBA rookie who had spent the previous 24 years coaching at Marquette, Kansas State and the University of Washington. "He was a very nice man," says Hayes, "but he treated the players like they were on scholarship."

    "It was as much my fault as it was his," says Winter. "I really thought I could coach the same way as I did in college. That didn't work with Elvin." Winter's idea was to convert Hayes, one of the greatest scoring machines ever to play the game, into a passing center. And he would have Hayes pass off to such luminaries as Cliff Meely, Stu Lantz and Dick Gibbs.


    "One of our first games that year was up in Waco, against Chicago," Hayes recalls. "I'm messing around with the ball in the high post and all my teammates are on the other side. Now the clock's running down and I have to shoot. But I'm not supposed to. Well, I must have had four or five shots in a row blocked. And I never have my shots blocked. Guards were blocking my shots."

    Hayes' masquerade as a passer was never satisfactorily explained to the Houston fans, and even they got down on him for not shooting. Soon Hayes decided that the experiment was over, and one night he came out shooting and scored 37 points. Afterward Winter told him, "You're fighting me." The season was disastrous. The San Diego stories were retold, and Hayes wanted out. "Elvin carried quite a burden and I felt sorry for him," says Winter. "The Houston people bought the Rockets solely because of him. They thought he'd fill the Astrodome like he did one time in college. Instead we played some games there in front of 500 people. He was crushed. On top of that, I found him so lacking in fundamentals. It's true that I tried to mold him into my concept of what a post man should be, but I could not get any response from him and that caused all sorts of problems on the club. He knew he was more valuable than I was and there was just no way I could build a young club around him."

    In 1972, Hayes got his trade to the Bullets, and 47 games into the following season Tex Winter was gone, too. Bullet Coach Gene Shue recognized that Hayes' strength lay in scoring and rebounding—and even better, Shue had the luxury of returning Hayes to his natural forward position, because Unseld was there to play the pivot. Shue also knew how to communicate with the modern superstar. "Nobody is going to blame you if we lose," he told Hayes. "Nobody is going to say anything if you miss a shot or commit a turnover. Just play ball, Elvin. Forget all that stuff you got in San Diego and Houston. All that is over."

    And just like that....this here:

    "Nobody is going to blame you if we lose," he told Hayes. "Nobody is going to say anything if you miss a shot or commit a turnover. Just play ball, Elvin. Forget all that stuff you got in San Diego and Houston. All that is over.

    Just that quick...one of the most hated on players n the league is a contender for the next 5 years makes 3 finals doing digits lal along the way all nba first team 3 times and wins a ring.

    I think hes one of the best examples of what a poor coaching matchup can do to ruin a career and a reputation.

    By most accounts I find from non players he was pretty much a selfish jerk...but guysl ike Russell and Wilt seemed to like him. Russell had a lot of good to say. Elvin said Russell was his idol and he came in trying to play defense first like him...but he never really got put into the position to do so.

    Elvin is the type who if he were drafted onto a traditionally great franchise who had its shit together and a great longterm coach who was ready for a player like him...we might be asking if hes top 10-15 all time.

  3. #3
    Very good NBA starter chips93's Avatar
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    Default Re: ISH All-time Top 25 Forwards Project #17: Dennis Rodman vs Elvin Hayes.

    i didnt watch either of these guys play and ive never seen a full game of hayes, so im not gonna vote. but ill still get in on the discussions

    when the rockets drafted sampson, hayes saw sampson as a project, he planned to tutor sampson and to impart knowledge that he had gained over the years. but hayes was regarded as such a team cancer, that when the rockets coach at the time found out that hayes was getting close to sampson, he reportedly told sampson to ''stay away from that f**king prick''.

    nice comparison between two guys who couldnt be more different.

  4. #4
    7-time NBA All-Star
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    Default Re: ISH All-time Top 25 Forwards Project #17: Dennis Rodman vs Elvin Hayes.

    I've seen quite a few games from when Hayes was on the Bullets and he did have a good turnaround, but he seemed to take some bad shots and probably shot too many jumpers leading him to be so inefficient for a big man. Best comparison I could make is Jermaine O'Neal, some differences, but I think they're pretty similar in terms of skill set and impact.

    Anyway, I was aware of some of the negatives with Hayes, and Rodman can obviously be a distraction as well. Hayes won a title as a star, but one of several on the team. He was more suited to be the man on the team than Rodman, but I wouldn't want Hayes as the man on the team, while I'd absolutely want Rodman as a complementary player. Not an offensive threat, but he embraced rebounding, playing hard and playing defense on whoever you asked him to. That type of skill set won't take away from any player you put him with and he made a huge difference on 5 title teams and numerous contenders. The greatest rebounder ever, imo.

    So I vote for Rodman.
    Last edited by ShaqAttack3234; 11-02-2011 at 03:32 PM.

  5. #5
    7-time NBA All-Star Droid101's Avatar
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    Default Re: ISH All-time Top 25 Forwards Project #17: Dennis Rodman vs Elvin Hayes.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShaqAttack3234
    I've seen quite a few games from when Hayes was on the Bullets and he did have a good turnaround, but he seemed to take some bad shots and probably shot too many jumpers leading him to be so inefficient for a big man. Best comparison I could make is Jermaine O'Neal, some differences, but I think they're pretty similar in terms of skill set and impact.

    Anyway, I was aware of some of the negatives with Hayes, and Rodman can obviously be a distraction as well. Hayes won a title as a star, but one of several on the team. He was more suited to be the man on the team than Rodman, but I wouldn't want Hayes as the man on the team, while I'd absolutely want Rodman as a complementary player. Not an offensive threat, but he embraced rebounding, playing hard and playing defense on whoever you asked him to. That type of skill set won't take away from any player you put him with and he made a huge difference on 5 title teams and numerous contenders. The greatest rebounder ever, imo.

    So I vote for Rodman.
    Ditto here, Rodman, for all the reasons I've given for the last two threads.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: ISH All-time Top 25 Forwards Project #17: Dennis Rodman vs Elvin Hayes.

    From footage I've watched of Hayes, his shot selection was really bad at times. Sometimes he'd have a wide open lane to the basket but for some reason, he'd rather take the turnaround fadeaway instead of going strong to the basket. I can see why he shot so poorly sometimes, has nothing to do with ability but the types of shots he was taking. He did have a very positive impact when he joined his teams though. Rockets went from winning 17 games to near .500 in his rookie year, though their records were generally mediocre in his time there. Bullets went from a .500 team to a team that won 50+ and even up to 60 one year (which you didn't really see a lot in the 70s due to the parity in the league).

    In the playoffs Hayes always got hated on for not delivering in big games. Looking at his logs...he used to have some massive games. A lot more 30+/20+, 40+ pt games than people will assume by looking at his overall stats. He was a bit inconsistent game to game, and noticeably played worse in game 7s than other games in a series, but he often doesn't get credit for things he did throughout the series. In a series where I've read his game 7 performance get criticized, he had 46 pts in a pivotal game 5 (after McAdoo had 50 the game bfore) and averaged 32 in the other two wins before that game. If he scores only 20 in the game 7, he likely got ripped apart and not given the proper credit for what he did for rest of the series. Or like against the Knicks the year before that, he put up 31/23 to save team from elimination and send the series to 7 games, but a poor game 7 performance ended up getting him ripped even though he played well all series.

    Hayes had his issues...big games, not liked by teammates, didn't really seem to play the way (offensively at least) like he should have, but Rodman has his own set of issues too so you can't hold Elvin's issues as much as you would in comparison with other guys. Hayes was a more complete player and solid on both ends and on the boards. A lot of Hayes' "issues" could have been taken care of if he played with guys and leaders like Isiah and MJ too (and simultaneously coached by Daly and Phil while playing with them). Also underrated about Hayes is his ridiculous longevity and durability. Gave you 16 years, 12 consecutive all-star years and missed only 9 (!) regular season games his entire career.

    I'm voting for Elvin Hayes.
    Last edited by Fatal9; 11-02-2011 at 03:50 PM.

  7. #7
    Good High School Starter Miller for 3's Avatar
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    Default Re: ISH All-time Top 25 Forwards Project #17: Dennis Rodman vs Elvin Hayes.

    I would go with Hayes. He takes a lot of flack from stat lovers for being inefficent, but imo he was like KG and Drob in that he was a No.2 forced to carry an offensive load. From what ive seen, his calling card was his defense and rebounding, but people want to knock him for missing turnarounds and being unclutch. He probably should have been the 78 FMVP, and led the Bullets to 3 Finals overall. People knock him for being unclutch, but in his 78 playoff run he put up 22/13/2/3 on 49% shooting while leading his team to a title. I love Rodman, but Hayes was a superior player

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    Shazam! raiderfan19's Avatar
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    Default Re: ISH All-time Top 25 Forwards Project #17: Dennis Rodman vs Elvin Hayes.

    Dirk pippen and baylor are all going to be too low if they are in the next five.

  9. #9
    Please clap. Real Men Wear Green's Avatar
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    Default Re: ISH All-time Top 25 Forwards Project #17: Dennis Rodman vs Elvin Hayes.

    Hayes

    Rodman was more valuable than a one-dimensional 20 ppg scorer and forh is unique style and contributions to the game deserves respect but now we're talking about a guy in Hayes around whom you could build a Contender. He couldn't defend like Rodman but the difference in scoring ability is too massive to ignore. Rodman's edge has an edge rebounding but Hayes was a great rebounder.

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    Titles are overrated Kblaze8855's Avatar
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    Default Re: ISH All-time Top 25 Forwards Project #17: Dennis Rodman vs Elvin Hayes.

    The only knocks on Elvin I feel are things we have to throw out when the other side is Rodman.

    I love Dennis. One of my all time favorite. But Elvin is one of the top 10 scorers and an all time leading rebounder. Shot blocker too. He was a star for like 15 years. He was doing all star numbers alongside Bird and Magic and Wilt and Russell. And he gets flack for being hard to coach and like....but....its vs Dennis Rodman. Elvin(like Dennis) didnt seem to be hurting teams. Not looking at results. He went to a 15 win team and took it to the playoffs. And when he left not like they lit the world on fire. He went to the Bullets and made 3 finals and won a ring. Seems his teams did about what they should have. Its said they should have won in 75 but still....not like he didnt get it done.

    Both are talented but hated on stars who were emotional, prone to fueds, and it seems...considered suicide in their primes. Similar in ways. But Hayes just has that next level to me. Rodman is one of the best players ever to me. Not role players. Best period. But Hayes is a leading scorer and rebounder...all D team guy....who made 3 finals as a superstar and won it all.

    Just feels like another level of player to me. And we dont even have the "But it was 1952...." element. He was great vs the same bigmen Ewing, Hakeem, and so on came in playing.

    I dont think he gets his due respect. And even if he was a dick...hes against Dennis Rodman. Character/disruption issues dont really help anyone in this.

  11. #11
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    Default Re: ISH All-time Top 25 Forwards Project #17: Dennis Rodman vs Elvin Hayes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kblaze8855
    ...
    why don't you start voting (just not in the OP)? could always use more votes.

  12. #12
    Serious playground baller RobertdeMeijer's Avatar
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    Default Re: ISH All-time Top 25 Forwards Project #17: Dennis Rodman vs Elvin Hayes.

    This is hard for me because Hayes was a very good player with alot of negative kinks (gotta love that Sampson quote, thanks writing that down, Chips93)

    And Rodman was a kinda-good player with alot of positive kinks.

    I put Hayes higher because he seems to be in a higher tier: Players that lead their team somewhere.

    Ultimately, Hayes still had some good kinks (rarely got injured, could block shots unlike Unseld, and Rodman had his fair share of bad kinks (injured alot, head-case at times)

    so I vote for Elvin Hayes

  13. #13
    Local High School Star MasterDurant24's Avatar
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    Default Re: ISH All-time Top 25 Forwards Project #17: Dennis Rodman vs Elvin Hayes.

    Rodman was the more hard-working, team-oriented player, Hayes was the more talented and overall better player. Hayes was also arguably the best player on a playoff contender and champion in the Bullets. They went to the Finals 3 times. Like the poster above me said, Hayes was simply in a different tier from Rodman.

    Elvin Hayes

  14. #14
    7-time NBA All-Star
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    Default Re: ISH All-time Top 25 Forwards Project #17: Dennis Rodman vs Elvin Hayes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Miller for 3
    I would go with Hayes. He takes a lot of flack from stat lovers for being inefficent
    It's not even just stats, I'm not the only one who noticed it in his shot selection. There are some players who I'll watch and be surprised that their stats show them to be inefficient, but with Hayes, I see why he was inefficient.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kblaze8855
    Just feels like another level of player to me.
    This made it tough for me, and still makes me unsure of my vote. Actually, prior to this project, I never thought too much about where Dennis would rank all time because players like him usually don't come up much in all time ranking discussions. Or at least players who were never top 10 players in the league.

    And we dont even have the "But it was 1952...." element. He was great vs the same bigmen Ewing, Hakeem, and so on came in playing.
    I agree that era isn't much of an issue, not because I agree with the whole "he played against this guy who played against this guy" point. But first year post-merger, he was a 24/13/3, 50 FG% player at 31, 20/13/2, 45% the following year, 22/12/2, 49% in '79 and then 23/11/2, 45% at '80.

    Era really isn't much of an issue for me when discussing the late 70's/early 80's, particularly with big men. I've seen a lot of Kareem games, a good amount of Walton games from the year and a half he was healthy and they look as good as any big men to me. Most big men who were considered very good at that time, seem to have skills that would translate well.

  15. #15
    Serious playground baller FF1's Avatar
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    Default Re: ISH All-time Top 25 Forwards Project #17: Dennis Rodman vs Elvin Hayes.

    Quote Originally Posted by raiderfan19
    Dirk pippen and baylor are all going to be too low if they are in the next five.
    This. The initial voting on this is all messed up.

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