Phil talking about Kobe and Jordan comparison (11/25)

[Laker Logic]

As for Laker Logic, figures that he'd seize on the ONE move/mannerism I noted that someone had done before (and really, McHale isn't doing it exactly the way MJ did, but whatever). I posted a similar list on another board once and someone mentioned McHale and this move, so I did know better, but the overall argument (re: Kobe's move jacking) retains its force. Kobe wasn't copying that from McHale when he took like a dozen other moves/mannerisms from ONE other player, who happens to be one of two who've done that particular move.

You say I "seized on" the post double- pivot like there's some conspiracy...again, it was the FIRST example YOU gave of
moves you claim Jordan invented. Should I have started at the bottom and worked my way up? The conclusion would be the same - you have no idea what you're talking about.

And for the record, the McHale move is EXACTLY the move that you described, exactly the move that Jordan used, exactly the move that Kobe, Payton, Bonzi Wells and others have used. There may be minor differences in how they finish and how they move due to body style and relative athleticism, but the fundamental footwork of is identical. That you can't even acknowledge that shows how fundsmentally dishonest you are.

It's also telling that you admit to being called out for miscrediting Jordan with creating this same move in the past, on another board, and that you "knew better" but decided to make the exact same claim again.

And sorry, but it's not a victory for you to now amend your categorical statement about MJ being the ONLY player to do this by now saying he's "only one of two" to do it prior to Kobe. You've already shown a glaring lack of knowledge about non-Jordan specific basketball - why do you suppose anyone should take your word that it's only two, when one post ago it was ONLY Jordan?

As a matter of fact, here's a fact that you need to spend some time dwelling on. Jordan did all kinds of things on the court no one had seen before, but 98% of it would fall into the category of improvisational, one-off, in the air moves that not even he did routinely.

Jordan did NOT add "dozens" of moves to the basketball repertoire that he created and that became textbook. There is simply not an extensive "Jordan"
book of moves like the one we're debating that had never been seen before, for Kobe or anyone else to "bite."

There's a whole universe of moves out there, rarely attributable to one player. Any playground player picks up some, serious fans of the game may know more. Pro players obviously have an even larger body of knowledge to draw on, not just from playing with the best players on earth day in and day out, but also from their access to game film. Point is, there isn't a player you can name who can accurately be identified as THE definitive author of more than a move or two at best, and most of them are more responsible for popularizing or resurrecting a move than "creating" it (i.e. "Magic's" no-look pass or "Hardaway's" crossover. There absolutely is not a modern era player, Jordan included, who singlehandedly created the number of moves you attribute to him.

[gts]

Wait, wait - Younggrease is arguing that Kobe never imitated Jordan's moves? There are many, MANY moves that ONLY one other player in history has done, and Kobe has done them too. A few examples:

you go girl! mj did it all

don't forget to tell them this was all done after jordan invented the nike shoe and took down the peach basket and replaced it with a net he hand wove on the inner thigh of a rockette cheerleader while he reskinned baseballs out of a new age material called horsehide

[cruthikai352]

LMFAO at this thread. All you guys suck at basketball. True story

[juju151111]

i have to agree with the Kobe homers here. Mj got his moves from others and he improvised on them. I do think Kobe tries to have Mj mannerisms early in his career do and his celebrations are fromv MJ DVD.

[Knoe Itawl]

i have to agree with the Kobe homers here. Mj got his moves from others and he improvised on them. I do think Kobe tries to have Mj mannerisms early in his career do and his celebrations are fromv MJ DVD.

Kobe definitely studied Jordan's game the most and the most annoying thing is that his d@ckriders won't admit that he definitely tried to copy Jordan's mannerisms (something people from different walks of life, fans of different teams, from all over the WORLD noticed. But we're all just "haters" of poor widdle Kobe).

If he, and his ******gers would just admit the OBVIOUS, there would be a lot less animosity about the issue. People would still not respect Kobe for being a style jacking fake (ala, he's a "Thug Poet" ) but at least they'd get points for acknowledging it.

The only large group of people still denying it are the Kobe Homers. Wonder why? And how do they explain why even some (reasonable) Kobe fans admit it?

[Fatal9]

Fatal9, no, that's not the hitch move in the post I'm referring to, though that's a move that only Bird and Jordan really did much. The move I'm referring to can be seen here:

You can't be serious....

You really think Jordan is the only one to do that move? A slight jerk to freeze the defender and quick spin baseline? Before Jordan, King, Bird (when he had an angle) and even old Kareem have all done that. This is a standard move in the post, especially if you are quicker than the guy guarding you. They might not have done it as smoothly or spectacularly as MJ, but you have to be crazy to think Jordan invented it.

Jordan is as much of a "move jacker" as Kobe is. The fact that they have similar bodies and skills makes Kobe's "move jacking" easier to spot than say Jordan taking his moves from McHale, Bird and others (probably picked them up when Bird was schooling him year after year in the 80s). Like I said, the hate Kobe receives for copying mannerisms is perfectly legit, it's pretty weird actually, but this "move jacking" stuff is very hypocritical coming from Jordan fans.

[Roundball_Rock]

Who cares? Did MJ copyright his moves?

Anyways, I find it hilarious how this went from a bunch of single minded Jordan fans venting about Kobe "jacking moves", to Jordan himself getting exposed as someone who ripped them from the 80s Celtics frontline

[Laker Logic]

Like I said, the hate Kobe receives for copying mannerisms is perfectly legit, it's pretty weird actually, but this "move jacking" stuff is very hypocritical coming from Jordan fans.

Agreed. The mannerism-jocking is a legit, but wildly overblown critique of Bryant. People still trying to crucify a 30 year old man for emulating an icon's "mannerisms" when he was 18 is just silly and pathetic...and evidence of how stunted some people are in their own growth...still living in 2000.

The fact that they've so quickly moved on from trying to prosecute Kobe for the felony of "move jacking" to being reduced to asking for the death penalty for misdemeanor "mannerism jacking" tells you all you need to know.

Remember when certain people cried "Kobe's a ******!"...right up until the prosecution dropped their case for lack of evidence...and then they took up the cry of "but he's a bad husband!!!" as if they were the same thing? Yeah, it's pretty much like that.

The moral of the story is - OldSchoolBBall should now be called "Old (as long as it's not pre-Jordan) School BBall," and doesn't know jack about the game outside of a single player, albeit an all time, arguable GOAT one. OldSchool jacked his bball knowledge from Jordan! Alert the authorities!

[juju151111]

Agreed. The mannerism-jocking is a legit, but wildly overblown critique of Bryant. People still trying to crucify a 30 year old man for emulating an icon's "mannerisms" when he was 18 is just silly and pathetic...and evidence of how stunted some people are in their own growth...still living in 2000.

The fact that they've so quickly moved on from trying to prosecute Kobe for the felony of "move jacking" to being reduced to asking for the death penalty for misdemeanor "mannerism jacking" tells you all you need to know.

Remember when certain people cried "Kobe's a ******!"...right up until the prosecution dropped their case for lack of evidence...and then they took up the cry of "but he's a bad husband!!!" as if they were the same thing? Yeah, it's pretty much like that.

The moral of the story is - OldSchoolBBall should now be called "Old (as long as it's not pre-Jordan) School BBall," and doesn't know jack about the game outside of a single player, albeit an all time, arguable GOAT one. OldSchool jacked his bball knowledge from Jordan! Alert the authorities!

??? 2000?? Kobe been celebrating like Mj all through the years. He taps the floor when he hits game winners and did Mj celbration in 09 when they won the chip. I don't care tho. In the start of his career, he tried to aviod the question, but know he telling the truth. He studied Mj and so i say who cares. Everyone took moves from others, but KB use to lie about it.

[Laker Logic]

??? 2000?? Kobe been celebrating like Mj all through the years. He taps the floor when he hits game winners and did Mj celbration in 09 when they won the chip. I don't care tho. In the start of his career, he tried to aviod the question, but know he telling the truth. He studied Mj and so i say who cares. Everyone took moves from others, but KB use to lie about it.

. <----- There is my point. You missed it.