In 09 Kobe and Wade were Top 2

[ArbitraryWater]

Look, people trying to evaluate LeBron's help through their regular season record, conveniently leaving out the weight he pulled to actually achieve those marks

We saw how good those '60 win teams' were the next year... hell, we saw it already in 2009 and 2010, when the Cavaliers went 1-6 without LeBron...

god damn thats terrible the more I think about it.

But ay, surround him with spot up shooters and he's good enough to get that team #1 records, and everyone like sheep will go "it was suited to his strengths!" Only because his strengths allow a team to be built in various ways around him. This roster wouldn't even work half as good with someone like Kobe, who'd max win 49 games.

[Magic 32]

But ay, surround him with spot up shooters and he's good enough to get that team #1 records

and one of the best defensive teams.

And of course he lost against every team of merit for 5 straight years in the playoffs.

This was his crowning achievement...

[Smoke117]

and one of the best defensive teams.

And of course he lost against every team of merit for 5 straight years in the playoffs.

This was his crowning achievement...

...yeah because the Lakers were in the finals in 2004 agains the Pistons because of Kobrick... What the hell is wrong with you? I know you are a fan, but do you really believe all this ****ing garbage you spewed out of your mouth? I'm a nice guy and I like to give people the benefit of the doubt...but you and your ****ing mouth are joke that nobody should respect...bitch.

There has never been a fanbase that calls for patience more than these Kobe stans...and I'm not a patient man.

[aj1987]

So Lebron couldn't lead Wade/Bosh to multiple 60+ win seasons but he was able to do it with "no help" when he was playing for the Cavs?

That doesn't make any sense..

if he really had no help with the Cavs then as soon as he began playing with Wade and Bosh they should have been rallying off 60+ wins every season..

but he didn't..

and somehow you still think he had "no help" with the Cavs.. he can lead the Cavs to 60+ wins in 10 but can't lead Wade/Bosh to 60+ wins the very next season..?

OK THEN..

'11 and '13 were the only times they could've won 60+. The '11 Heat were terrible outside the big 3 and the big 3 themselves didn't have too much security. They were winning because of the big 3 taking turns to destroy teams.

Can you also tell me what help LeBron actually had and what those players are doing RN?

[Magic 32]

...yeah because the Lakers were in the finals in 2004 agains the Pistons because of Kobrick...

I'm a nice guy and I like to give people the benefit of the doubt

Comparing the 2004 Pistons to the 2007 Pistons is disingenuous.

Nice people are not disingenuous.

[raprap]

These Kobe stans

[Smoke117]

Comparing the 2004 Pistons to the 2007 Pistons is disingenuous.

Nice people are not disingenuous.

humph...you just looked up how to spell disingenuous, eh? You must have as you had this absurd reason to say it twice within two sentences. *smirk* Maybe you wouldn't' have to try so hard if you actually knew a ****ing thing about basketball? Food for thought.

[Magic 32]

humph...you just looked up how to spell disingenuous, eh? You must have as you had this absurd reason to say it twice within two sentences. *smirk* Maybe you wouldn't' have to try so hard if you actually knew a ****ing thing about basketball? Food for thought.

Not candid or sincere, typically by pretending that one knows less about something than one really does.

Hope that helps.

[Smoke117]

Not candid or sincere, typically by pretending that one knows less about something than one really does.

Hope that helps.

Ah...so you think you are witty and clever? Let me help you on this one...you aren't. You are a joke here and the only thing you merit is derision, scorn, and laughter. (at you)

[Magic 32]

Ah...so you think you are witty and clever? Let me help you on this one...you aren't. You are a joke here and the only thing you merit is derision, scorn, and laughter. (at you)

Your anger and persistent responses tells me that you are being "not candid or sincere, typically by pretending that one knows less about something than one really does" again.

[DMAVS41]

Those Cleveland teams were clearly catered towards Lebron's ball-dominant and bullish style of play (good shooters, a big man that doesn't clog the pain, and a bunch of good defenders). He had plenty of help really. You don't need fellow-stars to have "help"--a team of guys who fill the roles you want, and who cater to your best player's strengths, can often be enough.

This is fine for regular season success and early round playoff success, but history has proven that teams without legit 2nd guys at or near all nba caliber rarely win in the playoffs.

You play other great or elite teams and you need a 2nd guy or at least some better role players that can do things on their own when need be.

Those Cavs teams were good, but certainly not great or elite.

The Mavericks, post 2003 really, suffered from the same issues. An all time great surrounded by good role players, but lacking that 2nd guy to really give other elite teams in the playoffs trouble and game plan for.

If, for example, those Cavs teams had a guy like Kawhi...then they would have been legit title capable.

Running out Mo Williams and Jamison and Moon...and Parker...and those caliber of players...it's just gonna be really hard to beat the other best teams in the league. It can be done, but if Lebron's 09 Magic series wasn't good enough to even make it out of the East...then you know you have a team problem.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

But Wade had a higher RAPM than Kobe, and Kobe's teammate (Odom) had a higher RAPM than both of them.

That stat is a severely flawed mathematical abstraction.

He didn't.

Click on the "SWaGR" tab which by extension is RAPM, as it adjusts for games played.

The flaw? Most stats are and will NEVER beat actually watching games. The fact this metric is used by MUCH of the league gives it at least some notoriety, IMO.