Why does CavsFTW use height and weight as an argument?

[iznogood]

But it has to be evident for us to know that it exist:
Wilt great deep post game with major skills around the basket.
Kareem great deep post game with major skills around the basket.
Bellamy great deep post game with major skills around the basket.
Reed great deep post game with major skills around the basket.

I've checked out every Walt Bellamy's video on youtube and I don't see him having a great deep post game. He had a very good jump shot, but on most of his highlight videos I've seen they let him take it. Not many of his jump shots were contested. I realise we only have a small sample of his career on tape, but I'm pretty sure there'd be some tapes of him performing moves on the low block if he was that successful at it.

Also none of the other guys had any real moves using their non shooting hand. This is why you back in the days you saw so many finger rolls, awkward looking scoop shots with the inside arm and such. Many centers today finish with both arms around the basket and display elite footwork. Show me a video of any of the guys you mentioned do a baseline spin, I've never seen one. The all use drop step, which is much easier to execute.

I would argue that the level of skill has not diminished. The guys from the 60s are considered to have elite post game because they scored a lot. But the biggest reason they were able to score that efficient is because it was much much easier to secure a position closer to the basket and also because the rules allowed very little contact. Just look at how many post ups from the 60s start a couple of feet away from the basket. It also makes finishing around the basket easier when you're not exhausted from battling for position.

Please note that I'm not trying to say anyone is better or how well one or the other would do if they time travelled to some other era. What I'm writing to say is that the rules changed and so has the game. The big men are not as favoured by the rules as they use to be, because the amount of contact allowed gives defenders much better chances to fight for the position. It also allows smaller players to partially compensate for the height disadvantage.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GtrxfvKYXjc
Look how Dellavedova is allowed to hip check Nowitzki and doesn't let him establish the high post position.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQO9q_oi6B4
Look at how Chris Paul stands his ground and forces Miller to spin baseline where he's expecting help.

[Pointguard]

I've checked out every Walt Bellamy's video on youtube and I don't see him having a great deep post game. He had a very good jump shot, but on most of his highlight videos I've seen they let him take it. Not many of his jump shots were contested. I realise we only have a small sample of his career on tape, but I'm pretty sure there'd be some tapes of him performing moves on the low block if he was that successful at it.

Also none of the other guys had any real moves using their non shooting hand. This is why you back in the days you saw so many finger rolls, awkward looking scoop shots with the inside arm and such. Many centers today finish with both arms around the basket and display elite footwork. Show me a video of any of the guys you mentioned do a baseline spin, I've never seen one. The all use drop step, which is much easier to execute.

I would argue that the level of skill has not diminished. The guys from the 60s are considered to have elite post game because they scored a lot. But the biggest reason they were able to score that efficient is because it was much much easier to secure a position closer to the basket and also because the rules allowed very little contact. Just look at how many post ups from the 60s start a couple of feet away from the basket. It also makes finishing around the basket easier when you're not exhausted from battling for position.

Please note that I'm not trying to say anyone is better or how well one or the other would do if they time travelled to some other era. What I'm writing to say is that the rules changed and so has the game. The big men are not as favoured by the rules as they use to be, because the amount of contact allowed gives defenders much better chances to fight for the position. It also allows smaller players to partially compensate for the height disadvantage.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GtrxfvKYXjc
Look how Dellavedova is allowed to hip check Nowitzki and doesn't let him establish the high post position.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQO9q_oi6B4
Look at how Chris Paul stands his ground and forces Miller to spin baseline where he's expecting help.

If you want to play big and around the hoop you can. Al Jefferson does because he desired to do that. Howard moved away from that game because he doesn't want to do it. Got me??? He played that game because he had the energy to do it in his early years but never looked comfortable in the post. Oakafor is going to play around the basket because he's comfortable there and wants to be there just like Al Jefferson. If you want to play big, you can play big.

They beat Iverson's butt so that he wouldn't drive. Did Iverson stop driving??? They don't call fouls that much when Rose or Mello drives to the basket. Yet, they play their game. If a player wants to play a certain way, he can make enough room to play the way way he wants.

Desire is more than half the game. Tristan Thompson has a great off hand and I can't even tell which is the dominant hand, and can score around the basket with it. James Worthy and Dantley not as much. But their desire to want to score going to their left was on a whole different planet. This is what I mean when Desire to be effective in a certain way is more than just having a skill that a player will shy away from. If Shaq didn't identify with being a big player that dominates he wouldn't be that player. Hakeem, who has more moves than any big in the game now, imagined himself to be as big as Shaq to play in a more dominant way.

You are making excuses that rules, refs and endurance issues have it so that players shy away from the post. Really? Mello and Al Jefferson didn't get that memo. They were making rule changes against Wilt frequently and the refs working non rules on him as well - he didn't become Dirk despite the greatest of defensive centers on him. You got to have the heart of a big man to play like one. The refs, endurance and rule changes aren't going to take away the heart. The game comes with pressure, that just part of it.

Embiid and Oakafor have oldschool deep post games in them and I believe the courage to be big. It takes a certain culture to get that, and a certain mentality to sustain being that. And a bigger pool to choose from hasn't been the answer to why there aren't more guys wanting to play big much less being that way.

[iznogood]

If you want to play big and around the hoop you can. Al Jefferson does because he desired to do that. Howard moved away from that game because he doesn't want to do it. Got me??? He played that game because he had the energy to do it in his early years but never looked comfortable in the post. Oakafor is going to play around the basket because he's comfortable there and wants to be there just like Al Jefferson. If you want to play big, you can play big.

I don't know what your problem is, I never claimed any of the guys were forced to play further away from the basket. You're making my argument up.

All I was saying is that you were wrong about the assessment of Bellamy's post game which you failed to address. Bellamy wasn't a low post player.

They beat Iverson's butt so that he wouldn't drive. Did Iverson stop driving??? They don't call fouls that much when Rose or Mello drives to the basket. Yet, they play their game. If a player wants to play a certain way, he can make enough room to play the way way he wants.

Again, I never claimed anybody was forced to play away from the basket.

Desire is more than half the game. Tristan Thompson has a great off hand and I can't even tell which is the dominant hand, and can score around the basket with it. James Worthy and Dantley not as much. But their desire to want to score going to their left was on a whole different planet. This is what I mean when Desire to be effective in a certain way is more than just having a skill that a player will shy away from. If Shaq didn't identify with being a big player that dominates he wouldn't be that player. Hakeem, who has more moves than any big in the game now, imagined himself to be as big as Shaq to play in a more dominant way.

You are making excuses that rules, refs and endurance issues have it so that players shy away from the post. Really? Mello and Al Jefferson didn't get that memo. They were making rule changes against Wilt frequently and the refs working non rules on him as well - he didn't become Dirk despite the greatest of defensive centers on him. You got to have the heart of a big man to play like one. The refs, endurance and rule changes aren't going to take away the heart. The game comes with pressure, that just part of it.

I only pointed out that scoring efficiently today is harder that it used to be. You're putting words into my mouth

Embiid and Oakafor have oldschool deep post games in them and I believe the courage to be big. It takes a certain culture to get that, and a certain mentality to sustain being that. And a bigger pool to choose from hasn't been the answer to why there aren't more guys wanting to play big much less being that way.

I haven't written a word about how the bigger pool affects the way the guys play. I simply corrected your incorrect statement and voiced my opinion on what I think about the level of the general post skills since a lot of posters seem to think the guys in he 60s were pulling off moves that players today can't.

[Pointguard]

I don't know what your problem is, I never claimed any of the guys were forced to play further away from the basket. You're making my argument up.

My reply was obviously to the whole post. Don't act all brand new. Where did I ever make any statements about players needing to player further from the basket. Where are you coming from with that.

All I was saying is that you were wrong about the assessment of Bellamy's post game which you failed to address. Bellamy wasn't a low post player.

In the beginning Bells did have a deep post game. And he did switch it up. But I could use Dantley, B King, and dozens of others if it pleases you. Besides it was a side bar to the main statement. And it obviously wasn't all you were saying in your four paragraph rebuttal. But I will chop it up for you being that you frequently get lost and then try to play stupid.

Again, I never claimed anybody was forced to play away from the basket.

[COLOR="Red"]"
What I'm writing to say is that the rules changed and so has the game. The big men are not as favoured by the rules as they use to be, because the amount of contact allowed gives defenders much better chances to fight for the position. It also allows smaller players to partially compensate for the height disadvantage."[/COLOR]
I was addressing this. Iverson's game wasn't favored by the league, the commissioner hated him, and they allowed him to get beat when he came down the middle. Did he change his game because it wasn't favored??? I never said anything about playing further from the basket. When you watch the Kareem vs Wilt video do you not notice that neither player comes close to taking the amount of steps that Hakeem does after the dribble stops. Are you playing dumb to the fact that Wilt had rule and rule made to slow him down???

I only pointed out that scoring efficiently today is harder that it used to be. You're putting words into my mouth.

[COLOR="Red"]"Also none of the other guys had any real moves using their non shooting hand. This is why you back in the days you saw so many finger rolls, awkward looking scoop shots with the inside arm and such. Many centers today finish with both arms around the basket and display elite footwork. Show me a video of any of the guys you mentioned do a baseline spin, I've never seen one. The all use drop step, which is much easier to execute." [/COLOR]

This is why I brought up the left handed of Tristan Thompson vs Dantley and Worthy. Screw the non shooting hand if the mentality in the deep post is that I am dominant and play big here. You are trying to be sly in downing big men of the past and are now playing stupid.

I haven't written a word about how the bigger pool affects the way the guys play. I simply corrected your incorrect statement and voiced my opinion on what I think about the level of the general post skills since a lot of posters seem to think the guys in he 60s were pulling off moves that players today can't.

Dude that was what my post was about. If you jump in with a four paragraph reply you have to know my context to sound coherent. If all you were responding to was Bellamy then make that clear and leave. You didn't so now I'm giving it to you. You went off into some weak stuff about:

[COLOR="Red"]"It also makes finishing around the basket easier when you're not exhausted from battling for position."

"The big men are not as favoured by the rules as they use to be, because the amount of contact allowed gives defenders much better chances to fight for the position."[/COLOR]

Like big men are wimps today. The context of my post was that the big man pool didn't create more big men that play big. The rest is sidebar stuff off of the main topic. You were responding to my idea and now you acting like where did my main idea come from.

[iznogood]

My reply was obviously to the whole post. Don't act all brand new. Where did I ever make any statements about players needing to player further from the basket. Where are you coming from with that.

The whole point of who plays where was brought up by you. I never even debated it in my first post.

In the beginning Bells did have a deep post game. And he did switch it up. But I could use Dantley, B King, and dozens of others if it pleases you. Besides it was a side bar to the main statement. And it obviously wasn't all you were saying in your four paragraph rebuttal. But I will chop it up for you being that you frequently get lost and then try to play stupid.

If Bellamy really had a deep post game, I'm sure you'll be able to find some clips of him showing that deep post game, I'd love to see them.

[COLOR="Red"]"
What I'm writing to say is that the rules changed and so has the game. The big men are not as favoured by the rules as they use to be, because the amount of contact allowed gives defenders much better chances to fight for the position. It also allows smaller players to partially compensate for the height disadvantage."[/COLOR]
I was addressing this. Iverson's game wasn't favored by the league, the commissioner hated him, and they allowed him to get beat when he came down the middle. Did he change his game because it wasn't favored??? I never said anything about playing further from the basket. When you watch the Kareem vs Wilt video do you not notice that neither player comes close to taking the amount of steps that Hakeem does after the dribble stops. Are you playing dumb to the fact that Wilt had rule and rule made to slow him down???

How was Iverson's game not favoured by the league? He was allowed to carry the ball all the time. He was the originator of all the carrying we're watching today. You are very naive to think commissioner hated Iverson. Iverson was loved by the league, he brought in a lot of fans and a lot of money.

As for watching Hakeem and Wilt, I guess you're referring to my mention of low post baseline spin. The baseline spin out of the triple threat is legal by any rule when performed correctly. As for the steps taken after the player had ended the dribble, the interpretation of the rules changed, that's why I didn't even mention those.

[COLOR="Red"]"Also none of the other guys had any real moves using their non shooting hand. This is why you back in the days you saw so many finger rolls, awkward looking scoop shots with the inside arm and such. Many centers today finish with both arms around the basket and display elite footwork. Show me a video of any of the guys you mentioned do a baseline spin, I've never seen one. The all use drop step, which is much easier to execute." [/COLOR]

This is why I brought up the left handed of Tristan Thompson vs Dantley and Worthy. Screw the non shooting hand if the mentality in the deep post is that I am dominant and play big here. You are trying to be sly in downing big men of the past and are now playing stupid.

I still don't see, what you meant by bringing up left handed Thompson.

As for the big men of the past, I'm not downing them down. I never claimed any of those guys couldn't develop the ability to shoot with both hands. I'm simply saying they didn't have to so they didn't. If they wanted to play a low post scoring game today, they'd probably have to as I can't think of any big man that can score that is not good at using his left.

As for mentality, I don't think it's going to be much of a help when you're technically limited and can not put the ball in at efficient rate. You're simply not be getting the touches you would like to, because the team is not going to run the plays for you.

Dude that was what my post was about. If you jump in with a four paragraph reply you have to know my context to sound coherent. If all you were responding to was Bellamy then make that clear and leave. You didn't so now I'm giving it to you. You went off into some weak stuff about:

[COLOR="Red"]"It also makes finishing around the basket easier when you're not exhausted from battling for position."

"The big men are not as favoured by the rules as they use to be, because the amount of contact allowed gives defenders much better chances to fight for the position."

Like big men are wimps today. The context of my post was that the big man pool didn't create more big men that play big. The rest is sidebar stuff off of the main topic. You were responding to my idea and now you acting like where did my main idea come from.

I like to discuss sidebar stuff. You didn't have to answer it if you felt like it didn't contribute to the debate. I guess I was not really addressing your point with the rest of my post. Maybe I'm just agitated about the fact that many people think that the bigs today are somehow less skilled.

And I don't disagree with you when you say that the the big pool doesn't necessarily creates more big that play big, so I'm not really sure why are you so agitated about it.

And I never tried to say big men today are wimps. If anything, the game today is tougher for the big men with all the banging in the post, guards crashing when trying to pass screens and such.

[Pointguard]

How was Iverson's game not favoured by the league? He was allowed to carry the ball all the time. He was the originator of all the carrying we're watching today. You are very naive to think commissioner hated Iverson. Iverson was loved by the league, he brought in a lot of fans and a lot of money.

Tim Hardaway was doing that long before Iverson and its not that much of a deviation.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0HRPIu02Xo

The commissioner had teams scared to pick AI up and he couldn't get back in the league when there about 10 teams that could have used him for excitement, gate, points and a few wins. They had several differences about his rap records, AI implied his image was in question and his tats and hip hop influence was the target of several innuendos in league articles.

As for watching Hakeem and Wilt, I guess you're referring to my mention of low post baseline spin. The baseline spin out of the triple threat is legal by any rule when performed correctly. As for the steps taken after the player had ended the dribble, the interpretation of the rules changed, that's why I didn't even mention those.

I brought it up to show you how little discouragements don't affect a guy from playing big. Which is the emphasis of my original post.

As for the big men of the past, I'm not downing them down. I never claimed any of those guys couldn't develop the ability to shoot with both hands. I'm simply saying they didn't have to so they didn't. If they wanted to play a low post scoring game today, they'd probably have to as I can't think of any big man that can score that is not good at using his left.

Most of the big men today aren't post scorers which is what my original post was about. You talking about a precious few. Kareem played with Wilt and had a left hand hook that was effective to about 10 feet out, which to me is of better range than any playing now and more effective than anybodies left hand now as well.

As for mentality, I don't think it's going to be much of a help when you're technically limited and can not put the ball in at efficient rate. You're simply not be getting the touches you would like to, because the team is not going to run the plays for you.

We agree here. I was saying in my original post that the culture of big men wanting to play big isn't hyped as much. Big men that played big were always the most efficient scorers. But if they want to shoot jump shots that's not going to be the case anymore.

I like to discuss sidebar stuff. You didn't have to answer it if you felt like it didn't contribute to the debate. I guess I was not really addressing your point with the rest of my post. Maybe I'm just agitated about the fact that many people think that the bigs today are somehow less skilled.

I think the bigs shoot better but you have to admit they don't want to play big. And we all are agitated by it. I was hyping Embiid and Oakafor as the true challenge of if the league rules have marginalized skilled big men near the basket and unfortunately Embiid's career has been on pause.

And I don't disagree with you when you say that the the big pool doesn't necessarily creates more big that play big, so I'm not really sure why are you so agitated about it.

And I never tried to say big men today are wimps. If anything, the game today is tougher for the big men with all the banging in the post, guards crashing when trying to pass screens and such.

I've seen old clips where guys get punched in the face lining up at the foul line during shots and play just continue without ejections. McHale clothes-lining Rambis. Before Jordan, players took the hit on drives to the basket. When players started leaving college early, bigs that wanted to play big stopped coming down the pipeline as much. I really believe that if you dominate at 19 and 20 and 21 years old, its much more likely that you will dominate at the next level in that same fashion. But when you are younger than men, they make you think smaller to have their way with you.

Its all good, not playing on your screen name. I just didn't understand your other three paragraphs.